Started mixing lead single for my rock musical (Musical Theater/Hard Rock/Prog Rock)

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Seafroggys

Seafroggys

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EDIT: Up to date mix on Post #13

Hey all, back for my annual check-in to homerecording.com again, this time needing some actual mix help this time! And this is probably my first time posting something to the MP3 Clinic since, like, 2012 or something.

Anyway, a bit of background - wrote a musical back in 2011 based on Norse Mythology, started recording the album in 2013, and took quite a few years off but I'm back to finishing it. This song is going to be featured in a music video (which I've already filmed) that will release a couple of months before the rest of the musical. It is a different mix from how the album is mixed - this is intended to be more "radio-friendly" for lack of a better phrase. More compression, wetter vocals, more gain on the guitars, different bass amp sim, etc.

I just got my JBL 4410a's operational, so this is the first thing I have mixed on them (alongside my venerable KRK RP-6's). I'm still getting used to the JBL's, and I'm hearing a lot of things on them that I never heard on my KRK's. So I'd love to get some opinions on this mix in its early stages. And if anyone wants any questions on how everything was recorded, or my plugin chain, or whatever, I can divulge that if asked.
 

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I thought guitars sounded pretty good. They could maybe use a bit more "chug" tho. I wonder if you could use a compressor with a long-ish attack time (like 80-90 msec), 2-3 db of gain reduction, and get a bit more chug out of them. Particularly the rhythm guitar on the right.

Some pitchiness in the vocal. Don't know if you want to tune them or not. But there are some notes here and there that stand out. I also think double tracked vocals would work well on a song like this.

Bass sounds pretty nice. I might turn it up a bit.

Drums are OK. There is a crash cymbal that is a bit loud.
 
Seafroggys said:
Hey all, back for my annual check-in to homerecording.com again, this time needing some actual mix help this time! And this is probably my first time posting something to the MP3 Clinic since, like, 2012 or something.

I just got my JBL 4410a's operational, so this is the first thing I have mixed on them (alongside my venerable KRK RP-6's). I'm still getting used to the JBL's, and I'm hearing a lot of things on them that I never heard on my KRK's. So I'd love to get some opinions on this mix in its early stages. And if anyone wants any questions on how everything was recorded, or my plugin chain, or whatever, I can divulge that if asked.
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Sounds like a Musical - the vocals need cleanup - lot of errant notes - but they sound very smooth and very clean - almost think you’ve got some kind of Neve variant and U87a clone - almost - Guitar and Drums are pretty solid - with the aforementioned crash cymbal just too loud - bass is in there but I can’t really define what it's doing -
 
Thanks for your response TripleM!

  • I forgot what compressor settings I have on the guitars, I'm not at my studio at the moment. I'll play with them some more and see if I like what you're describing. I know I have a compressor running on the right/rhythm guitar. I think I only have a compressor going on the lead/left guitar during the "solo" section after the intro.
  • I have already run the vocals through Melodyne, so I'm surprised there's still pitchiness. I'll give them a run again see if there's anything I missed.
  • Turn up bass? Afraid it might get too boomy. Maybe I should boost some 1.5k or something for added definition instead?
  • Didn't notice the errant loud crash cymbal. Don't have much control over it, could maybe try automation to tame it a bit.
And for Papanate (who posted while I was typing this)

  • Yep, will look into those pitch issues. Like I said, I ran everything already through Melodyne but maybe I was too lax with my correction.
  • The vocal mic is a Telefunken Copperhead. Its a mic that's not really talked about, but I was looking for a higher-end mic and was suggested that instead of the Mojave, which was my original first choice. I've had it a little over a year and have been happy with it.
  • I'll play with bass EQ some more. May have to try a different amp sim. From what I recall (it was recorded back in 2013) it was a P-Bass with flatwound strings, I used an SVT-4 amp sim with a fairly aggressive midrange boost, but if its not enough I may need to try something else to get it to cut, but you can only do so much with flats.
 
Seafroggys said:
  • Turn up bass? Afraid it might get too boomy. Maybe I should boost some 1.5k or something for added definition instead?
  • Didn't notice the errant loud crash cymbal. Don't have much control over it, could maybe try automation to tame it a bit.
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I wouldn't turn up the bass a whole lot. But I think you could get away with a 1-2 db boost and it wouldn't get boomy. Or yeah, try a boost in the 1.5 - 2K range to see if that brings some definition to it.

On the cymbals, I'm guessing they're in the overheads. Maybe do a small shelf cut, like -1db above 10K or so. Careful with shelf cuts or boosts... Small increments can have a big effect.
 
I think it sounds fine as a song, but to me, not really a typical musical theatre song. Remember that the venue will have lots of power down the bottom, so MT tracks always exploit that. In fact the rough dissonant vocal sort of works for that genre. It's certainly different. I've been involved with musical theatre for years and currently do lots of work with one of the big UK production companies - so I've heard all kinds. At the moment, it's just a bit 'non-standard' in terms of polish - that will come.
 
rob aylestone said:
I think it sounds fine as a song, but to me, not really a typical musical theatre song. Remember that the venue will have lots of power down the bottom, so MT tracks always exploit that. In fact the rough dissonant vocal sort of works for that genre. It's certainly different. I've been involved with musical theatre for years and currently do lots of work with one of the big UK production companies - so I've heard all kinds. At the moment, it's just a bit 'non-standard' in terms of polish - that will come.
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You are definitely accurate there. When I wrote this in 2011, I was only familiar with a couple of musicals, and this was largely musically inspired by the original 1970 Jesus Christ Superstar concept album - which is more like a progressive rock album with a thin musical theater veneer. This song in particular was meant to be a marketable single that could potentially have 'cross-over' appeal to the rock crowd, or an audience that may not be familiar with musicals or just turned off by them. The rest of the songs are definitely not like this - multiple characters, intricate storylines, lavish orchestral sections (I recorded a live string quintet for this!), acoustic jams, funky tunes - there's a wide variety.

But mainly, I kinda wanted to avoid what I perceived as the typical "Broadway/West End" sound that permeates most popular musicals. I wanted it to be a musical, but not sound like something you'd typically hear (remember, this was written before Hamilton was a thing - and even that still has that Broadway polish).

Now in the years since then, I've become a part-time professional pit musician, I've played in like two dozen musicals, everything from Annie to Legally Blonde to Little Women to Hair to Drowsy Chaperon. So since 2018 when I started playing in pits, I have become *much* more familiar with musicals and the tropes of musicals and the idioms of them. This new perspective, not just of knowing more musicals but actually *playing* in them, has given me lots of thoughts to how I'd do things differently if I wrote this now. I wouldn't change anything - I want to keep this authentic to my 2011 self, plus all the instrumentals were recorded in 2013-2014 so I couldn't exactly change anything - but if I was to write another musical, I would do quite a few things differently.
 
You are just into tweaking really - just time in front of the screen adjusting the little things. I think I am the only person who hates Hamilton. A turning point in Musical Theatre I wish had never happened. I've been forced into watching it twice now and hated it from beginning to end.
 
I realise most people love it but musical theatre had conventions. A bit of dialogue, then for no reason people burst into song, but the killer for me is that I hate any music where instead of singing, they speak rhythmically. I even struggle a bit with Mark Knopfler. I just cannot relate to it, and my view is that it has no place in musical theatre at all. Just me, but i have often wondered what their vocal warm ups backstage pre show are like? Usually they sing little bits and then repeat higher and higher till they run out of range. Maybe they do tongue-twisters? I also found Hamilton odd because they try hard to make it period with costumes and wigs and set, then people dance like they're being tazered in a modern choreography, ignoring period? Its like watching a historic piece, like maybe the King and I, and instead of the usual dance suddenly doing break dancing? Yul Bryner of course couldnt sing so did a hamilton, and that was yucky too.
 
And see, that's where you're losing me. Breaking conventions is what art is all about. I mean, how many conventions did Hair break? And now everything about that show is so normalized. Why narrow your focus and gatekeep musical theater? If someone has a different vocal style from the norm, go for it! Make it work!
 
I'm sorry for hijacking your topic. I'm now just too unimpressed to waste my time on shows I don't like. When I was younger, I'd be sitting in a production office, talking about plans and figures and somebody would come in and say - we're going to see XXXX, they've given us six tickets - you coming? So I'd go, and sometimes I enjoyed the show, but gradually, it sort of wore off, and I spend the 2 and a half hours watching old stuff rejigged or seriously wondering about the casting - very few times did I actually enjoy the show. I even got involved in sequels to good shows, doing the previews - where we'd do the show, see the audience reaction and then it would be re-written. I just don't really like any of the current stuff at all, and I'm more likely to rush to get the train rather than do a show I won't like and stay over. I often had to take groups of people who'd come to London from all over, for meetings in the day to a show, and what killed it for me was that at that time everyone wanted to do we will rock you - which soon becomes rather boring. I think over the run I saw it over twenty times. Always loved the music, but with cast changes and the script changes they did continually, it wore out. The best show I ever had to see multiple times was Return to the Forbidden Planet, which I never tired of. A jukebox musical really, but with all the cast singing and playing instruments it was a hoot - and Shakespeare too - something else I hate.

Technology and the music (my bits) have moved on radically. Remember Jesus Christ Superstar - the first rock opera where the cast were all miked up with cabled mics! The choreography kept the cables untangled.

Musical Theatre involves good tunes and a good story. Too many now are lacking one or the other, or sadly, both!
 
Okay, finally got a chance to tweak the mix a little.

  • Ran the vocals through Melodyne a second time, hopefully that resolves the pitch issue (I can definitely hear a difference on a few notes)
  • Turns out I didn't have any compressor on the right guitar, so added one per the suggestion, hopefully it makes it "crunchier"
  • Brought up the organ a little bit. This wasn't recommended by any of you, but thought it was a little low.
  • Changed the bass guitar tones for a more cutting sound. Hopefully this makes it distinguishable, but there are times where its almost too crunchy.
 

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Second mix is better. Need to bring the drums up a bit. Sabbath+ Sid Barret Floyd.
Cheers
 
I always have a fear of mixing drums too loud, since I'm a drummer as a main, it's very easy for me to make them too prominent. I could bring the bass drum up a smidge I think - haven't been out to the studio in awhile since I've been dealing with a breakup, but I might try that.
 
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