$400 For Calibrating ??

[SteveMac]

Many people can learn to calibrate a tape deck, but there is a learning curve. It depends on how much time you have and if you’d like to be making music in short order.

That's about what it comes down to. I really need to be playing out and just recording. I like tinkering too and I'd love to learn to realign a deck but the terms really stump me. It'd take a while looking everything up. If I could get the test tape and just check out a few things for myself, like playback levels and stuff I'd be at least on my way a little. Plus, if we're going to be on the tape route I guess we ARE going to have to be somewhat self sustaining in this day and age.

Mike, I don't change my oil either, though I could. I can fix a toilet but I can't fix that sprayer on the sink. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[SteveMac]

To complicate matters, manufacturer instructions assume a certain level of knowledge; hence terms such as “Load” aren’t defined.

So what is a "load" anyway? Looking at the manual again it's actually starting to make more sense. I've got as far as

2-11-1 Input level Calibration. That's easy enough. Then 2-11-2 Meter Calibration, got that. Then there is 2-11-3 Reproduce Level Calibration, where it says to Connect the AF level meter, (oscilloscope) and a 50k ohm load to the OUTPUT jack on the rear panel. The output jack?
Hmm.....is a load, maybe, a measure of resistance??

 

[cjacek]

well, Daniel, then do it ....

I don't wish to argue over semantics or what one meant or didn't mean etc ... but I need to chime in for a sec, ok ?

No disrespect, really, but I think your distaste (for the lack of a better term) for the words "expert" and "pro" and what they conjure up (at least for you) and also perhaps past experience with MCI2424, lead you to be rather bias. In short you are trying to force-feed your views on the reader and rather arrogantly for that matter. That you don't see MCI's reply as helpful is certainly not my problem but yours.

I can't help but compare your response (and a noted insult directed my way) to MCI2424's past suggestions of his superiority over someone who doesn't follow his line of thinking (with regard to gear). I can't see any difference between the two. One is coming from someone who has a "pro" complex and the other an "anti-pro" and "anti-expert" complex. Neither one can operate completely sober. Yet, there are moments of clarity.

 

[antispatula]

If you want do achieve both mechanical and electrical calibration. ei setting all levels and adjusting the physical position of your heads, you can spend around 400 bucks on that stuff and learn to do it yourself. That way you NEVER have to spend moeny on calibration again! If you're like me and are too cheap and poor to get tape for azimuth adjustement AND (important and) your heads seem to be positioned well anyways, buy the 1/2" tape for 150 and do it yourself. You save 250 bucks plus all the other times you would have to take it to a pro for adjustement.

And of course there are other things that CAN be usefull like a milivolt reader that reads in AC (hard to find in local RS and stuff....Ebay!) And you can get an oscillator (or just use your computer!) an oscilloscope, a WOW and flutter meter, a distortion meter, and eventually a therapist to fight the slow decline of your mental state after dealing with calibration yourself

 

[cjacek]

Btw, that's exactly the advice I'd give to someone who has never done a full electrical / mechanical alignment:

(1) Find a competent tech in your area. Do your research, ask around and settle for the best tech at a reasonable price. This first point is critical.

(2) Ask if you can observe the tech at work or have him come out to your studio / home. Ask lots of questions, note down the tools and techniques used, anything for you to get a general (and specific) picture of the procedure.**

**My tech even said that he could teach me the process while he worked. I didn't even have to ask!!

(3) Study the service manual and follow the advice given by your tech. Slowly learn to do it yourself. If you're stuck then get help from this forum, call the tech for phone advice, whatever to keep you going.

(4) Good news is that you'll have plenty time to learn as those machines keep their allignment for many years!

 

[cjacek]

If you want do achieve both mechanical and electrical calibration. ei setting all levels and adjusting the physical position of your heads, you can spend around 400 bucks on that stuff and learn to do it yourself. That way you NEVER have to spend moeny on calibration again! If you're like me and are too cheap and poor to get tape for azimuth adjustement AND (important and) your heads seem to be positioned well anyways, buy the 1/2" tape for 150 and do it yourself. You save 250 bucks plus all the other times you would have to take it to a pro for adjustement.

And of course there are other things that CAN be usefull like a milivolt reader that reads in AC (hard to find in local RS and stuff....Ebay!) And you can get an oscillator (or just use your computer!) an oscilloscope, a WOW and flutter meter, a distortion meter, and eventually a therapist to fight the slow decline of your mental state after dealing with calibration yourself

There's lots more to doing a full alignment than an MRL tape, level calibration and bias adjustment. Your advice looks really good on paper but in practice is a whole new different world.

I'm all for learning to do the alignment but such advice leaves lots to be desired, especially for someone who has never done it. Some of you guys make it seem like it's a cake walk but it isn't. People then, who have never taken to this level of servicing and / or just brought home their first analog recorder, go about getting the tape and following the typical advice. Many screw up because then they notice their recorder has things wrong with it, that they did not anticipate and that their calibration tools are not going to help. Weeks and months go by with lots of hair pulling, frustration, diagnosing and additional funds being spent on parts, which may or may not cure the problem. Then the machine gets sold or thrown away and the person says he's "going digital".

Btw, if your typical recordist who just bought a used machine would go to a proper authorized and competent tech for a $50 evaluation / estimate, in the first place, then much wasted time, money, frustration and bad decision making would be completely cut out of the equation.

Bottom line, I'm sorry antispatula, but I can't sign under such advice. It'd not be a responsible thing to do.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I think your distaste (for the lack of a better term) for the words "expert" and "pro" and what they conjure up (at least for you) .... lead you to be rather bias.

I AM bias. You've got that right. But you are totally wrong about what has lead me to become bias. I would try to explain it this way: "If words "expert" and "pro" would commonly conjure up the same as they conjure up for me personally in their virgin meaning, then there would not be a reason for me to become bias. Unfortunately it isn't so. And so I AM anti-"pro" bias and never trust a word out of "expert's" mouth."

In short you are trying to force-feed your views on the reader and rather arrogantly for that matter.

Expressing a view arrogantly does not mean force-feeding it. Also, commonly, a grotesque, (if/when) serving as a catalyst for a dispute, can be seen as arrogance. But that is your problem, not mine

That you don't see MCI's reply as helpful is certainly not my problem but yours.

I don't see that reply as helpful and so I've said so. And that's the end of the story. Not seeing that reply as helpful causes no problems for me what so ever. Just had to clear that up
**********
OK, what else?
hm?
Ah!. It's not that I don't see MCI's reply helpful, It's that IT IS NOT helpful!
How does that grab you as force-feeding?!!!! I hope it hurts

 

[evm1024]

load is....

So what is a "load" anyway? Looking at the manual again it's actually starting to make more sense. I've got as far as

2-11-1 Input level Calibration. That's easy enough. Then 2-11-2 Meter Calibration, got that. Then there is 2-11-3 Reproduce Level Calibration, where it says to Connect the AF level meter, (oscilloscope) and a 50k ohm load to the OUTPUT jack on the rear panel. The output jack?
Hmm.....is a load, maybe, a measure of resistance??

A load is the resistance to work....

In your car the load is you and the kids. In electronics it is a resistance.

It takes power to move the car and more power to to move more kids. In electronics it takes power to reach a certain voltage and more power to reach the same voltage with a greater load (less resistance is a greater load).

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate

 

[SteveMac]

A load is the resistance to work....

In your car the load is you and the kids. In electronics it is a resistance.

It takes power to move the car and more power to to move more kids. In electronics it takes power to reach a certain voltage and more power to reach the same voltage with a greater load (less resistance is a greater load).

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate

Got it, thanks EVM.

 

[SteveMac]

Some tests I've tried Out

I recorded some -10db test tones to the 38 to see how they would come back.

The 40k tone goes in -3 on VU and plays back about the same. 400k and 1k go in at 0vu and come back at 0vu, and the 10k and 15k tones go in recorded at the 0vu but come back -3.

Though it's not a big difference it might explain the trouble I'm having with the high end?

I tried the same on the Fostex A8 and the 40k tone recorded at around -3 and played back a few db lower, but the 400, 1k, 10k, and 15k test tones actually played back hotter than they went in, though they stayed right around the 0vu. The 15 k being the hottest.

I talked to Aztech in Watertown and he gave me $200 price on the calibration. Or will run tests for $75. They were real cool there so thanks Maddogg for suggesting them. He actually was trying to persuade me to not spend the money if it didn't need it. I told him about my little test and he said, yes that may indicate that somethings off.

I'm still going to order the MRL tape.

 

[Beck]

...and the 10k and 15k tones go in recorded at the 0vu but come back -3.

Head alignment, too much bias for the tape being used, or high frequency calibration has drifted.

Could also be a badly magnetized tape path that needs degaussing or dirty heads.

Worst case -- worn out heads.

High frequencies suffer first with any of the above.

 

[SteveMac]

Head alignment, too much bias for the tape being used, or high frequency calibration has drifted.

Could also be a badly magnetized tape path that needs degaussing or dirty heads.

Worst case -- worn out heads.

High frequencies suffer first with any of the above.

Thanks for the feedback Tim. I clean the heads all the time so the heads are clean and it's been demagged recently though I don't have anything to gage it with.

Hopefully not worn out heads. I'm staying optimistic that it's not, but we'll see.

 

[cjacek]

**********
OK, what else?
hm?
Ah!. It's not that I don't see MCI's reply helpful, It's that IT IS NOT helpful!
How does that grab you as force-feeding?!!!! I hope it hurts

After seeing that you've picked appart my post (for the most part ) it'd be rather futile for me to do the same .. We'd surely end up possibly going in circles and so why do it ? I would, however, like to point out one tiny thing, 'cause I feel it's important, in that I was strictly referring to "MCI's post" as a reference point and nothing else. I really don't care from whom it originated. I thought that IT WAS helpful. As always, your milage may vary...

 

[Dr ZEE]

I really don't care from whom it originated.

Neither do I.
*******
and , Daniel, I have not picked appart your freaking post , - I've sponded to your post. You make more than one point in your post - you may get more than one respond within one single reply to all or some of the points you've made in your post. This may look like your poor baby was torn apart . If you don't want me to respond to your replies, just let me know. No big deal really.

/later

 

[Dr ZEE]

oh, and btw,
GO, Steve!
********
it's all about attitude and will.

think what's possible... and then you can laugh at your own "achievements" and those who tell us who should and who should not fly:

 

[BRDTS]

I've only seen it mentioned a bit on this thread, but it might be helpful to reiterate that test tape/bias calibration is the easy part .....and only one part ....of a full calibration. Over time, enough things outside the realm of bias get out of whack to the point where sound and tape control get weird and a full alignment is.....well ...helpful. I wouldn't say "necessary" because after all, nowadays most of these machines are just in home use.

It takes me about an hour for just a quick bias check/tweak on any of the 4 to 24 track machines here.

When I do full calibrations (brakes tension testing, head alignment, platter adjustments, reel motor adjustments)....yes, four hours is about right.

I've always had a wide array of test equipment and always known how to do full alignments. I know the time involved....and it's pretty boring stuff. If I were a service center, I'd probably charge a bunch also if the customer wanted every single thing on the machine checked out and tweaked.

If one is getting a time/$ quote for calibration from a service center, it's a good idea to find out if their time and rate is for a simple bias calibration or if or a full machine alignment.

 

[SteveMac]

I think the price he gave me might have been for the works after I had thought about it. I didn't go into to specifics. So he may have assumed I wanted the whole thing checked out. In that case it might be fair.

I know there is a lot to learn to really know a deck but if I can get the deck to sound good then I'm good. I don't care necessarily if somethings on spec at my house. I think if I get the MRL and check the playback on it'll tell me alot about how the machines functioning. If after that it's still wrong then I'll know it needs to be fully checked. Sometimes screwing something up is the best way to learn. This I'm a pro at.

I've only seen it mentioned a bit on this thread, but it might be helpful to reiterate that test tape/bias calibration is the easy part .....and only one part ....of a full calibration. Over time, enough things outside the realm of bias get out of whack to the point where sound and tape control get weird and a full alignment is.....well ...helpful. I wouldn't say "necessary" because after all, nowadays most of these machines are just in home use.

It takes me about an hour for just a quick bias check/tweak on any of the 4 to 24 track machines here.

When I do full calibrations (brakes tension testing, head alignment, platter adjustments, reel motor adjustments)....yes, four hours is about right.

I've always had a wide array of test equipment and always known how to do full alignments. I know the time involved....and it's pretty boring stuff. If I were a service center, I'd probably charge a bunch also if the customer wanted every single thing on the machine checked out and tweaked.

If one is getting a time/$ quote for calibration from a service center, it's a good idea to find out if their time and rate is for a simple bias calibration or if or a full machine alignment.

 

[cjacek]

If you don't want me to respond to your replies, just let me know. No big deal really.

There was a "wink" strategically placed throughout my post so no big deal, ok ?

I don't mind you responding to my replies but when one does so in a condescending manner then I don't want to hear it. If someone doesn't agree with me, with my line of thinking then no big deal but please say so in a respectful manner and don't patronize.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Sometimes screwing something up is the best way to learn. ...

Screwing something up is the only way for me . However to me it's not the way to learn but rather the way to get things done/made. Learning is just something you can't avoid nor escape while you are on the way of getting things done/made, it falls on you like heavy rain and soaks you to the bone. The good thing is that lazy sunny days do come and you do "dry out" after a while and get "smily" again... or shall we say "happy"?. Time is a magic thing - it clears up your mind rather well, unless you are always on the road chasing a thunderstorm.
***********

...say so in a respectful manner and don't patronize.

When I see someone needlessly spray paint my character with no freaking good reason nor base for doing so (according to MHO, of course), I, frankly, don't see much there to respect, however, I never disrespect a person, while I can and do from time to time disrespect a point or a line of thinking for a reason and when expressing my "disrespect" and pointing out to a "reason" I may do it in patronizing manner.
speaking of winks. they come in different flavors, there are winks and then there are winks.... which one is which???? :
Also, when posting something on a b-board, with or without winks you never know how it may be accepted on the other side. If you say: "In two seconds I'm gonna put a fork in your eye" it may or may not be taken as a joke ..wink-wink

/respects

 

[cjacek]

When I see someone needlessly spray paint my character with no freaking good reason nor base for doing so

You mean that I did this ? Really ? Was it before or after you pissed all over my post ? Let me remind you what happened: MCI2424 posted and then all I did was said that I agreed and thought the advice was helpful. The following was your reply (to me):

"yeah, aha ...>>>>>>> Steve, don't listen to a bone-ass-head who would try to make it sound like it is so f*ng hard to understand and DIY. Just do it. Anyone who's got one head can do it... ".​

Sarcastic and patronizing .... clearly directed at my viewpoint. Whatever I said later was a direct reply to your demeaning comments.