The New Tone Thread

[minerman]

dude!

That sounds great!

Thanks a lot Bob...I'm really happy with the e-drums man, I should have bought a set a long time ago...Of course, I'm no drummer, but I can go in & fix my mistakes, add shit, whatever...I did this whole drum track in about 4-5 hours (at the most), & before, hand-programming or getting Jamstix to do this took forever...

I'm still gonna use the midi loops I have (I actually used a few fills in this) until I learn to play better, & I can use Jamstix to generate fills only, from about 15 different "drummers", so, I've got it covered I think....Thanks again man, means a lot to me...I'd never have improved on this shit if it weren't for you guys here....

ugh ..... singing 4 hours when you're sick sucks.
Sore throat and phlegm kept coming up and screwing with my voice all night .... I have a fairly powerful voice and it would suddenly drop out like an amp with a power tube cutting out ..... fortunately I only have gigs everyday till Tuesday.

Damn Bob, that sounds pretty rough...I know how it is though dude, when I played gigs, I would not miss one, come hell or high water. I've played gigs sick before, but I didn't have to sing very much, if any, so it's different for you dude...

Hope you get over that shit dude....Hang in there!!!

 

[Chili]

ugh ..... singing 4 hours when you're sick sucks.
Sore throat and phlegm kept coming up and screwing with my voice all night .... I have a fairly powerful voice and it would suddenly drop out like an amp with a power tube cutting out ..... fortunately I only have gigs everyday till Tuesday.

This could be a whole nuther thread. What do you do when you're sick but still need to perform? Not many fulltime professionals like Lt Bob, but many here in bands with other band members counting on them to make the gig.

 

[minerman]

This could be a whole nuther thread. What do you do when you're sick but still need to perform? Not many fulltime professionals like Lt Bob, but many here in bands with other band members counting on them to make the gig.

I agree Chili...Bob's the man though, so I know he's gonna hang tough & make it!!!!

Here ya go Greg:

 

[Greg_L]

I remember you telling me your JVM is kinda like an 800, to a point, but it's more of a modern, hi-fi 800, right??? I'd still love to have one though...

I wouldn't say it's more hi-fi. A JCM 800 is very articulate and dynamic, even at brutal volumes. The JVM doesn't react as well to picking and guitar vol rolling. I'd say a JVM is more refined. The JVM doesn't really change it's character much as the volume goes up, and it stays pretty good at very low volumes. The JCM 800 has a more active power section so it's more unruly as you turn it up. I like my JVM, but to put it simply, I don't ever take it to gigs anymore. I play around with it all the time but I don't even record it much anymore. For my thing, the JCM 800 kills it. IMO the 2203 circuit is the best thing Marshall ever did. It's perfect. One channel, six knobs, lots of bad attitude.

I have to disagree with ya on that one dude, while I love the way my amps sound when they're loud & pushing the power tubes, they're fuckin' deafening to be around...lol...It'd be cool to have a JCM800 or Super Lead that could get the cranked up tone without blowing the windows out of the house....I suppose an attenuator would be a logical thing for this, but, there's a lot more going on with "that" sound than just the power tubes...speaker breakup, all the air being pushed, etc...Just guessing, the 2 amps I have right now are probably all I'll ever really need for any situation, whether it be recording, gigging, or whatever...I've just become a gear junkie, & want more.....

Power scaling won't get the speaker breakup and air moving though. Power scaling alters the running voltages and bias. The tubes don't work at their optimum settings. I think an attenuator is the best method to tame volume while letting an amp run wide open because it's after the amp. The amp is doing it's thing as it's designed to do it. Then then attenuator controls it. But like any vol control device, there are drawbacks. Power scaling and PPIMVs are intrusive, (good) attenuators are expensive, require hookup, wear out tubes, and get hot. And all of them work best when you barely use them at all.

So, what do you think about the drum sounds themselves, apart from the spectacular playing over here?????

Lol. I thought they were okay. The hats and cymbals are still dead giveaways. But I suppose there just isn't really anything anyone can do about that. I think the toms jump out a little too clean. They sound too isolated. But it's not bad.

Remember the clips I posted today, & the DSL was really bright??? That's it on the right side of that song....Not too bad is it???

It's not bad, but that side does seem thinner than the other. I could tell that was the DSL on the right, but it's okay in the mix I guess. The Chupa side sounds great. I think you could go fatter on the DSL side. It doesn't take a drastic change between two rhythm tracks to keep separation. Just the act of playing it twice even through the same settings is enough.

 

[gecko zzed]

This could be a whole nuther thread. What do you do when you're sick but still need to perform? Not many fulltime professionals like Lt Bob, but many here in bands with other band members counting on them to make the gig.

At the risk of a thread derail . . . one Friday lunchtime I fell and broke my leg . . . the fibula. I had a gig that Saturday, so I had to do it on crutches. I had to get my wife to drive me to the venue, and the other guys had to unpack and set up my gear. It was like this for six weeks.

 

[Greg_L]

I sliced my fingertip off one time cutting a radiator hose for a car. Summer of 93. Cut right through halfway down the fingernail. Left index finger. Clean cut, like my index finger got a flat top. I stuck the piece back on with electrical tape and went on about my day. That night I played a gig on drums (with a proper bandage) and by the end of the set my snare head was splattered with blood, blood had pooled up in the crevice between the head and rim, and there was a mist of blood all over my crotch. Rock and roll.

 

[Lt. Bob]

At the risk of a thread derail . . . one Friday lunchtime I fell and broke my leg . . . the fibula. I had a gig that Saturday, so I had to do it on crutches. I had to get my wife to drive me to the venue, and the other guys had to unpack and set up my gear. It was like this for six weeks.

Allright! Mad respect for ya' for that one. A grown up man my friend ....

I had a head-on collision with a p'up while on my motorcycle ..... shattered my right knee cap and broke my right wrist. This was on a Monday ..... I made them let me out a day early on Thursday, cut my cast so my hand could get a grip on a sax ..... propped my right leg on the engine compartment and drove my van with my left foot 180 miles to my gig ....... kinda passed out a little bit midway thru the gig.

That was 35 years ago though.

As for these .... gotta do 'em .... call in sick and someone else gets your gig.

I sliced my fingertip off one time cutting a radiator hose for a car. Cut right through halfway down the fingernail. Left index finger. Clean cut, like my index finger got a flat top. I stuck the piece back on with electrical tape and went on about my day. That night I played a gig on drums (with a proper bandage) and by the end of the set my snare head was splattered with blood, blood had pooled up in the crevice between the head and rim, and there was a mist of blood all over my crotch. Rock and roll.

Awesome! ....... you're a man ..... that's what that is ..... props to ya'.
My daddy taught me to be a man too ........... no wussies here.

 

[Chili]

Dang, and I was thinking more along the lines of singing with a cold.

Some tough m'fckrs here.

 

[Greg_L]

Awesome! ....... you're a man ..... that's what that is ..... props to ya'.
My daddy taught me to be a man too ........... no wussies here.

Haha, thanks. And the finger is fine! You can't even tell anything happened to it. I got a lot of wacky injuries working on cars.

 

[Greg_L]

Get this....this didn't happen to me, but I witnessed it. I was working in this engine machine shop, and one of the other guys got a little sliver of metal stuck in his eye. The shop foreman sat him in a chair and dug it out with an Xacto knife. No shit. That was epic.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Get this....this didn't happen to me, but I witnessed it. I was working in this engine machine shop, and one of the other guys got a little sliver of metal stuck in his eye. The shop foreman sat him in a chair and dug it out with an Xacto knife. No shit. That was epic.

OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG!! .... Holy crap!

 

[minerman]

I wouldn't say it's more hi-fi. A JCM 800 is very articulate and dynamic, even at brutal volumes. The JVM doesn't react as well to picking and guitar vol rolling. I'd say a JVM is more refined. The JVM doesn't really change it's character much as the volume goes up, and it stays pretty good at very low volumes. The JCM 800 has a more active power section so it's more unruly as you turn it up. I like my JVM, but to put it simply, I don't ever take it to gigs anymore. I play around with it all the time but I don't even record it much anymore. For my thing, the JCM 800 kills it. IMO the 2203 circuit is the best thing Marshall ever did. It's perfect. One channel, six knobs, lots of bad attitude.

I didn't really mean "hi-fi", I mean to say more "modern", kinda like the difference between my DSL & Chupacabra when it's in plexi mode...I get it now dude, the JVM has a little power tube breakup, but nothing like the JMP/Super Lead/800...

My DSL does have some breakup in the power section, but it has to be fuckin' jet airplane loud to get it, & it doesn't really have a lot...The Chupa on the other hand, starts breaking up/distorting more when I get the master up to about 6, & gets dirtier as I turn the volume on up....I will say once I get the master to about 8 1/2 or so, it gets really fizzy/fuzzy & un-defined....The sweet spot on that amp (for me anyway) is about 7 or 8...

The light finally went off in my head dude...hahaha

Your description of the JVM compared to the 800 is pretty much how my 2 amps react, as long as the Ceriatone is in regular/plexi mode, with none of the hot-rodded shit engaged....

I'd still like to have a JVM....along with an 800...and a whole bunch of other shit too.....

Power scaling won't get the speaker breakup and air moving though. Power scaling alters the running voltages and bias. The tubes don't work at their optimum settings. I think an attenuator is the best method to tame volume while letting an amp run wide open because it's after the amp. The amp is doing it's thing as it's designed to do it. Then then attenuator controls it. But like any vol control device, there are drawbacks. Power scaling and PPIMVs are intrusive, (good) attenuators are expensive, require hookup, wear out tubes, and get hot. And all of them work best when you barely use them at all.

Right on dude, I get that too now, that I'm using big amps now....Before when I was using the little amps, I wasn't pushing enough power through the speakers to get 'em moving any, & couldn't figure out why I couldn't get "that" sound...I get it now though, while I still use my little amps (the DSL-1H is on right now...), there's just no comparison between 'em at all...The amps I have a loud as fuck, but they've got "that" sound dude, where my little ones can come close, but no cigar....Love my Chupa & DSL btw...

Lol. I thought they were okay. The hats and cymbals are still dead giveaways. But I suppose there just isn't really anything anyone can do about that. I think the toms jump out a little too clean. They sound too isolated. But it's not bad.

Well, I'll take "ok" from the Gerg dude, I don't know any way to make the hats/cymbals sound any better with what I have, other than bury 'em in the mix...hahaha I'll just have to make due with what I have, & finish this fuckin' album....I've made a lot of progress in the last couple weeks, I'm not gonna say how much, but let's just say it's a hell of a lot closer to being done now....While I'd love to hurry up & finish this thing, I want it to be the very best music I've ever written, performed, recorded, & mixed...Rushing/hurrying will just fuck it all up completely....

But, while I'm at it, I've got the bleed pretty low on the oh's for the other kit pieces in the Superior mixer...do you think if I brought that up (the tom/snare/kick bleed), it'd help the toms to sit a little better in the mix????

It's not bad, but that side does seem thinner than the other. I could tell that was the DSL on the right, but it's okay in the mix I guess. The Chupa side sounds great. I think you could go fatter on the DSL side. It doesn't take a drastic change between two rhythm tracks to keep separation. Just the act of playing it twice even through the same settings is enough.

I want the guitars to sound like 2 totally different rigs & players....The rig thing I can do, the player...not gonna happen...I'll sound like me no matter what...I've got the di's to all these songs, I'll probably go back & re-amp some of the guitars on these songs yet again...Like I said, I want this bunch of songs to be the best I've ever done, & if/when I do get 'em done, look back & say, "I did my very best on this", with no second thoughts at all...I know I've got caught up in a lot of shit I shouldn't have (worrying about things that nobody is really gonna notice for instance), but again, I wanna do the best I can on all of it...

At the risk of a thread derail . . . one Friday lunchtime I fell and broke my leg . . . the fibula. I had a gig that Saturday, so I had to do it on crutches. I had to get my wife to drive me to the venue, and the other guys had to unpack and set up my gear. It was like this for six weeks.

I don't think you're gonna de-rail this thread dude, this thread is like a cockroach...stomp it, & it just keeps coming back time after time....lol...

Dang, and I was thinking more along the lines of singing with a cold.

Some tough m'fckrs here.

Yeah man, there are some tough fuckers 'round these parts.....



Since we're into the injury/war story thing, I broke my foot jumping off stage in '99....We had just did soundcheck, & I was going outside to burn a doobie....The stage was about 4-5' high, concrete dance floor....Jumped the little rail, & broke my foot....I waited until Monday, went back to work, & "comped" the company I was working for....lol...I got about 6 weeks off work, with pay....hahaha

And the story about the guy digging the metal out of the eye, I've seen some really brutal things go on in the coal mines guys, some of it would not only make you cringe & send chills down your spine, would actually make you physically sick....Not going there, but I have saw some bad, bad shit in my time.....


Damn fuck hell, I've written a fuckin' novel for this post.....

 

[jonny deep]

To me, that sounds pretty damn good Jonny....well done!!!!

Yeah dude, I feel your pain on the ISO cab, maybe get the little woman to take the baby out to see relatives for an hour or two, & let the amp rip...Honestly, the home-made ISO I had was great, the Randall (which I paid like $300 for...) is utter shit...It's ok for late-night/silent playing/recording, but the recorded tones are shit man, plain & simple...Don't ever waste your $$$ on a Randall ISO cab, maybe other people can get it to sound good, but I'm not one of 'em...


The only thing I'd try different on your clip is maybe add some more low-end/bass to it man, it needs just a little chunk, but really, in a mix, you'd be cutting some of that out anyway (to leave the bass' space), so you might overlook me today....lol...

I've been recording since about 10:30 this morning (guitars & bass), so I'm gonna render a couple toans & take a break...

Be right back...

Thanks Miner! It came out ok, but I have to dial the amp in different when playing through the iso box. When I'm messing about in my studio room, I have it plugged into a V30 1x12 and it sounds pretty good whatever the settings. In the iso box, I have to fiddle a lot more to get something sounding ok through the headphones. It's a pain in the arse to mess with the mic placing, too - I have to go out to the garage, lift off the massive lid, shine a torch through the cab grill and move the mic around, then put the massive heavy lid back on and go back to my studio to try again and find out I've made it worse!

On the bass thing, I tried it with and without the bass control bypass engaged and with varying levels of bass dialled in when not bypassed, and I thought it sounded much better with the bypass engaged. Maybe that's something I should experiment with without the iso box to see if it's something that's a problem of the iso box itself.

Ok, here's a couple tones from a song I've been working on today, just the rhythm guitars solo'd....

LP di > re-amp box (+12db) > Chupa > G12-65 > '57

Chupacabra:
Resonance: 3
Presence: 5
Bass: 7-8
Mid: 6
Treble: 10
Volume: 7
Gain 2: 2
Gain 1: 6
Era: 80's
Bright 2: L
Bright 1: C
Focus: Off

Chupa 2-13


LP di > re-amp box (+12db) > Bogner Red > DSL100 > Greenback > '57

Bogner Red:
Volume: 6-7
Treble: 6-7
Mid: 5
Bass: 2-3
Gain: 5
Variac: On
Mode: Tight
Pre-Eq: N
Structure: 101

DSL100:
100w mode
Green clean
Resonance: 2
Presence: 3
Bass: 4
Mid: 6
Treble: 7
Volume: 4
Gain: 8

DSL 2-13

Nothing special, just a couple of my dirty wanna-be rock-n-roll toans....

Have to agree with Greg - the Chupa clip is by far the better sound here. That's nigh on perfect for me. The DSL clip is thinner sounding - it's not terrible, by any means, but it loses in this comparison.

I think that sounds pretty awesome. Well done. Nice vintagey crunch, tight low end, I love it.

Thanks Greg! It's the best iso box recording I've managed so far. Actually, the best guitars I've recorded have all been at bedroom volume through my 15W Vox Night Train, but that can be a bitch to dial in. I talked once, pages and pages and ages and ages ago, about the scratchy sound I get and people thought it might be the preamp section feeding more signal than the power section could handle at the volume I'm trying to play - well, I get the same sound on my plexi clone when the power scaling is turned down; but, if I open her up to 18W, the scratchy sound disappears. Anyway, with the Vox at bedroom volumes, it's really hard to strike the balance between scratchy sounds and useable volume. My better half is really nice about me playing loud, but I don't like to piss the neighbours off, so keep it to a minimum.

 

[jonny deep]

Power scaling won't get the speaker breakup and air moving though. Power scaling alters the running voltages and bias. The tubes don't work at their optimum settings. I think an attenuator is the best method to tame volume while letting an amp run wide open because it's after the amp. The amp is doing it's thing as it's designed to do it. Then then attenuator controls it. But like any vol control device, there are drawbacks. Power scaling and PPIMVs are intrusive, (good) attenuators are expensive, require hookup, wear out tubes, and get hot. And all of them work best when you barely use them at all.

I'm with Miner on this one - power scaled versions of the classic amps would suit me nicely. I understand the problems it introduces for recording, but I can see the benefit of having the option to just turn it down, then crank it up when it's time to hit record. That's why I'm interested in the AFD100 - it's essentially two classic amps in one with the low volume option. I realise I could just use one of the many low watt amps I now have lying around for practice, etc., but I'd like to be able to get things all setup in the iso box (or not, if I find I can't get it to work for me), mic placement, etc., then crank it up for short periods for recording time.

I don't know, I go to bed and have to catch up on and respond to four pages of conversation at once.

 

[jonny deep]

Ok dude, here ya go....of course I had to go into the midi editor/piano roll & fix shit, but I did play these drums on my e-kit...Lemme know what ya think, you know I really value your opinion on this shit, so, again, lemme know if you guys think this e-drum thing is gonna work......

Minermaniac Whacks His E-drumbs Off

Miner - that sounds awesome! Some of the half open hi hats were a bit of a giveaway - the timing of the choke (is that the right term) was too precise. One of the more complex fills felt a bit too precise compared to the groove of the rest as well. Still sounds amazing, though!!!

---------- Update ----------

I agree Chili...Bob's the man though, so I know he's gonna hang tough & make it!!!!

Here ya go Greg:

I was literally on my way here to post that picture this morning - beat me to it!

 

[Greg_L]

I'm with Miner on this one - power scaled versions of the classic amps would suit me nicely. I understand the problems it introduces for recording, but I can see the benefit of having the option to just turn it down, then crank it up when it's time to hit record. That's why I'm interested in the AFD100 - it's essentially two classic amps in one with the low volume option. I realise I could just use one of the many low watt amps I now have lying around for practice, etc., but I'd like to be able to get things all setup in the iso box (or not, if I find I can't get it to work for me), mic placement, etc., then crank it up for short periods for recording time.

I don't know, I go to bed and have to catch up on and respond to four pages of conversation at once.

I think my skepticism with power scaling is because I know nothing is free. You can't have your cake and eat it too, or something like that. Like any other volume/attenuation device, it's going to cost you something besides money. It's basic physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Only changed. The most common byproduct of that change is heat. A lot of heat. Also, tubes want predictable voltages to act the way we expect them to act. And it seems a lot of power scaling units incorporate diodes and op-amps. Bam, you just injected solid state into your glorious all-tube signal. And for many amps, power tube breakup is a myth. It just isn't happening as significantly as the legend claims. Many amps get all of their goods from the preamp section and the power section stays very clean. And ultimately, the "cranked sound" is a culmination of lots of things, including the phase inverter and the OT getting juiced up; not to mention moving air with speakers. All of this is why I'm skeptical. I'm just thinking out loud though. I could have it all wrong.

The only power scaling amp I've ever spent any significant time with is the Marshall YJM. It's a non master hot rodded Plexi style sig amp for Yngwie. It's a truly incredible, bad ass amp, even though it's affiliated with a massive tool. The YJM is kick ass. And it has power scaling. And the power scaling works very well up to a point and then the amp's sound totally falls apart IMO. The amp gets cloudy and fuzzy when dialed down. It's exactly the same result as using an attenuator or master volume to bring a big amp down to little levels. There's simply no way (yet) to get a cranked 100w sound at little volumes. That's not what they do. It's like taking a Formula One car to the grocery store. I do suspect power scaling is much more beneficial with smaller wattage amps though. I would think a pre and post phase inverter master volume blend would be about the same thing.

I also think people in general need to temper their expectations. For me, I know my amps will not, and do not, sound their best when turned way down. I can live with it. I'm just dicking around. I don't need or care about album quality sound when just goofing around. Maybe I'm the weirdo!

 

[jonny deep]

I think my skepticism with power scaling is because I know nothing is free. You can't have your cake and eat it too, or something like that. Like any other volume/attenuation device, it's going to cost you something besides money. It's basic physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Only changed. The most common byproduct of that change is heat. A lot of heat. Also, tubes want predictable voltages to act the way we expect them to act. And it seems a lot of power scaling units incorporate diodes and op-amps. Bam, you just injected solid state into your glorious all-tube signal. And for many amps, power tube breakup is a myth. It just isn't happening as significantly as the legend claims. Many amps get all of their goods from the preamp section and the power section stays very clean. And ultimately, the "cranked sound" is a culmination of lots of things, including the phase inverter and the OT getting juiced up; not to mention moving air with speakers. All of this is why I'm skeptical. I'm just thinking out loud though. I could have it all wrong.

The only power scaling amp I've ever spent any significant time with is the Marshall YJM. It's a non master hot rodded Plexi style sig amp for Yngwie. It's a truly incredible, bad ass amp, even though it's affiliated with a massive tool. The YJM is kick ass. And it has power scaling. And the power scaling works very well up to a point and then the amp's sound totally falls apart IMO. The amp gets cloudy and fuzzy when dialed down. It's exactly the same result as using an attenuator or master volume to bring a big amp down to little levels. There's simply no way (yet) to get a cranked 100w sound at little volumes. That's not what they do. It's like taking a Formula One car to the grocery store. I do suspect power scaling is much more beneficial with smaller wattage amps though. I would think a pre and post phase inverter master volume blend would be about the same thing.

I also think people in general need to temper their expectations. For me, I know my amps will not, and do not, sound their best when turned way down. I can live with it. I'm just dicking around. I don't need or care about album quality sound when just goofing around. Maybe I'm the weirdo!

I don't expect an amp to sound great with the power scaled down - I can hear that it sounds crappy even just turning my plexi clone down from 18W to 9W. But, it would be useful to be able to turn it down for the most part, then crank it for a short while while recording, or just to tame it some most of the time. Even in the iso box, 100W would likely rattle the walls apart in my house (actually, while it is semi-detached, the walls of my current place seem pretty solid and help keep the sound in).

I didn't know who Yngyywywyiwe was until the other day (other than his name being mentioned on here) - I saw a video of him on YouTube - seems a bit of a dick. He can play, that's for sure, but not in a way that interests me (am I allowed to disrespect him here?!).

 

[Greg_L]

Yngwie is a relic. He's a holdover from a time long gone and he unapologetically acts like a cheesy rockstar douchebag. I actually like that about him. He's a cartoon, and his signature amp is so kick ass, but his "music" is unlistenable shit.

 

[Lt. Bob]

yeah. the power scaling thing:

You can get good sounds that way ..... look at Mesas ..... but truthfully, when you have these 3 and 4 channel amps with each channel getting it's distortion at lower volumes, you're really getting most of your tone from the pre-amp.
And there's nothing wrong with that but it's a different kind of sound.

I get great sounds outta my amps ..... but since they're all combos or heads thru a single 12 ..... they're simply never gonna get that huge sound we all love.
It's a different sound.

Even if I crank my V, and it roars when I crank it ..... it still doesn't get the sound youse guys get when you crank a plexi type head thru 4 25 watt speakers in a big cab.
At that point you have speaker breakup going on (which can add wonderfully to your toan) AND you have the amp interacting with the complex impedance things that are going on with those speakers which actually alters the freq response of the amp.

I've considered running an amp thru my Ampeg SVT410HLF cab to see what that gives me ...... maybe this year sometime if and when I start really recording.

 

[Greg_L]

Yup, I agree. Modern amps that derive their voicing from the preamp section aren't utilizing power section saturation, so a simple master volume does the trick. Those amps sound great at lower volumes. My JVM, an amp that gets just about all of it's goods from it's preamp design, sounds way better at low volumes than my JCM 800, JMP, or Plexi. They're essentially useless unless they're breaking windows. I don't see how power scaling can remedy that because sheer brute force is what makes them what they are. It's entirely possible that I just don't understand power scaling though. It just seems like another gimmick.

I mean if this crazy thread has taught us anything, I think some of those teachings could be that speakers, the number of speakers, the box they sit in, and volume matters. That is if you want the gigantic blaring amp kind sound. But that's just one kind of sound. There are a lot of colors in the spectrum. A Blues or Jazz guy isn't going to want a Plexi full stack kind of sound.

If I ever start building my 50w Plexi clone, and it works, my next build will be a Fender Twin kind of thing. Because if there's one thing my stupid loud Marshalls don't do very well, it's a surfy Fender clean.