No audible distortion.....

[TASCAM MAN]

Just wanted to start a thread in hopes that other guys besides myself think like I do about analog (open reel/cassette based) recordings. Ive always purposely gotten "clean" sounding recordings (with no audible distortion) out of my recorders. Maybe its just cause Im a perfectionist and had new machines back then and always used the best tape for the machine, kept the heads cleaned etc etc during recording. Ive never had audible distortion on my analog recordings unless I really really kept the needles buried in the red.
I hope to hear from some of you that have had the wonderful experiences with tape as I have and still do....

 

[The Ghost of FM]

A large reason why I had all the various TASCAM decks over the years was because they offered the dbx noise reduction option and when you use that, recording cleanly is the only choice as that system forces you to record at lower levels where the tape is not being over saturated, the cross talk is kept down right along with the print through also being reduced. Clean, was always the name of the game for me and is probably why digital held little appeal to me as I already had clean sound and didn't need the cut and paste or instant rewind.

Cheers!

 

[TASCAM MAN]

A large reason why I had all the various TASCAM decks over the years was because they offered the dbx noise reduction option and when you use that, recording cleanly is the only choice as that system forces you to record at lower levels where the tape is not being over saturated, the cross talk is kept down right along with the print through also being reduced. Clean, was always the name of the game for me and is probably why digital held little appeal to me as I already had clean sound and didn't need the cut and paste or instant rewind.

Cheers!

Bravo my friend glad to hear that

 

[LToro]

My band LoPrimo 8 piece Brooklyn outfit @ loprimo.us just cut our first e.p. all live to tape recorded in one evening.. Not out yet, as we are shopping for a record deal as we speak. Love tape and nothing sounds like tape or a computer.

 

[TASCAM MAN]

My band LoPrimo 8 piece Brooklyn outfit @ loprimo.us just cut our first e.p. all live to tape recorded in one evening.. Not out yet, as we are shopping for a record deal as we speak. Love tape and nothing sounds like tape or a computer.

Glad to know that LToro and would love to hear it when you get it released!!

 

[Hammerstone]

I recorded my album on a Teac 4-track. I certainly strive for audiophile-quality recordings, but the reality is that it's just beyond my abilities at the moment. I do the best I can with what I'm given. While not purposefully trying to saturate the tape, my goal was to get as far above the noise floor as possible, and in this I didn't quite succeed to the extent I had hoped. I spent hours a day at my church for more than two months re-recording take after take until I got close to what I was wanting, experimenting with different sounds, sometimes just struggling to get a good take all the way through the song, sometimes agonizing over whether or not to re-record a track, sometimes being too burned-out to care anymore.

I do NOT consider this a bad experience.

I spent two months doing exactly what I was made to do. I wrote, performed and recorded an album with no budget using my own accumulated stereo and borrowed gear and space. I learned a lot. I had technical setbacks that, instead of leveling me, forced me to innovate, adapt and overcome. The recording I have as a result is quite far from my original conception and is all the better because of that - it's something that I'm proud to call MINE and the hell with what the rest of the world thinks. I had audible distortion. Sure, it might have sounded better if I had better equipment, if I had known what I was doing, but the only thing I regret in it (slightly) is that I never asked for help. I suppose I have pride issues in that, but being alone surrounded by a world gone digital, what's an independent-minded hell-bent analog recordist to do? I'm addicted to tape and would rather keep on recording the exact same way I did my first album than ever succumb to the influence of outside pressure to use computers. And I'll keep striving for the sound that I know tape can give me, not just because of superior sonic quality, but because maybe the journey is ultimately just as rewarding as the destination.

I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative...

 

[Chilljam]

Ive never had audible distortion on my analog recordings unless I really really kept the needles buried in the red.

I think you are specifically talking about clipping here since if you heard no audible distortion that means that your recordings would not sound like tape (remember distortion is quite a broad term in that it means ANY change to the original signal). If you are talking specifically about clipping, then yes, I agree you can get a very hi-fi sound recording to tape if you watch your levels.

...I suppose I have pride issues in that, but being alone surrounded by a world gone digital, what's an independent-minded hell-bent analog recordist to do? I'm addicted to tape and would rather keep on recording the exact same way I did my first album than ever succumb to the influence of outside pressure to use computers...

I do agree that digital almost completely dominates the home recording scene, but would like to point out that on a professional studio level, there is A LOT of music being recorded to tape in 2013 - some not even touching a computer. I know this is a home recording forum but thought I should point it out.

Daft Punk and Deerhunter's new album (both released 2 months ago) were recorded to tape, sound amazing and the latter was recorded on a couple of Tascam 8 tracks (with very audible distortion).

In my case though, I started on a portastudio then moved to digital then started incorporating analog gear back into my recording process and slowly sold off all my digital gear. I found the digital gear was just getting in the way and complicating the recording process. I'm 100% all analog now (tracking, outboard, mixing and mastering). I have certainly made some compromises such as no editing and it was evidently easier to get 'no audible distortion' when recording to digital. I could crap on all day though as to why I prefer the analog setup.

 

[James K]

I always try to get clean recordings. I record to a Tascam MS16 with DBX. I don't try to push everything into the red to get that "analogue" sound.

 

[jpmorris]

Running in the red is a bad habit of mine and I have had problems with clipping in the mix, especially when trying to make the vocals stand out.

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Ok guys Im an "old school" country boy here but I do know what distortion sounds like on an analog recording. UNLESS distortion (that I can hear) and the definition of it has changed like most words are these days haha , I still say that I DO NOT hear distortion in my recordings. Now if this definition of distortion and I quote: (remember distortion is quite a broad term in that it means ANY change to the original signal) is true I still don't HEAR very much "change" in sound when I A/B say....CD to a good 2TK RtoR etc etc. Sorry but Ive done test's years back when CD had just came out against a top notch cassette deck with metal tape with dolby C encoded and A/B'd them and could not hear the difference and even thought the cassette sounded better....I could go on and on but Im just saying.

 

[toddyjoe]

Ok guys Im an "old school" country boy here but I do know what distortion sounds like on an analog recording. UNLESS distortion (that I can hear) and the definition of it has changed like most words are these days haha , I still say that I DO NOT hear distortion in my recordings. Now if this definition of distortion and I quote: (remember distortion is quite a broad term in that it means ANY change to the original signal) is true I still don't HEAR very much "change" in sound when I A/B say....CD to a good 2TK RtoR etc etc. Sorry but Ive done test's years back when CD had just came out against a top notch cassette deck with metal tape with dolby C encoded and A/B'd them and could not hear the difference and even thought the cassette sounded better....I could go on and on but Im just saying.

I think the point Chilljam was trying to make is that the term "distortion" is not just making your signal sound like it went through some Boss Metal Zone guitar pedal or is clipping into a square wave; technically, distortion means anything that makes your recorded audio different IN ANY WAY from the original source. If you are saying your tape machines produce "no audible distortion," under the technical definition you are saying that your analog machines impart absolutely no audible effect on your recording -- no tape-head bump, no clipping, no tape compression, no tape saturation, nothing. If that were the situation, there would be no sonic benefit recording on analog versus digital as the only difference between the two would be in workflow.

Nowadays "distortion" is more commonly used to mean signal clipping and adding dirt and grind to the signal, so I presumed that is what you were referring to when you said you record clean with no audible distortion. When I record on tape I typically do the same, although I still cannot avoid the unavoidable effects of low-end head bump and soft clipping of loud drum transients... you know, "audible distortion."

 

[miroslav]

I think the point Chilljam was trying to make is that the term "distortion" is not just making your signal sound like it went through some Boss Metal Zone guitar pedal or is clipping into a square wave; technically, distortion means anything that makes your recorded audio different IN ANY WAY from the original source. If you are saying your tape machines produce "no audible distortion," under the technical definition you are saying that your analog machines impart absolutely no audible effect on your recording -- no tape-head bump, no clipping, no tape compression, no tape saturation, nothing. If that were the situation, there would be no sonic benefit recording on analog versus digital as the only difference between the two would be in workflow.

Nice effort explaining it....but I'm afraid it will fall on "deaf ears"....same as it did in the thread that got closed.

The whole point (IMO) these days for using analog is that in most cases is DOES change/color the original signal in some way...mostly in a favorable way....and that change (as has already been defined)....is technically "distortion".
Not sure why there's such a obsessive effort to prove that analog has none.

 

[TASCAM MAN]

I think my opening post needs to be re-read by most of you guys. and obviously my definition of "audible distortion" means a whole different thing to me than others. I think distortion is only heard with the ear and when you "hit" the tape very hard, and burying the VU into the red as I said before. Maybe "audible" has a new meaning in your dictionary, but to me it means when you "hear" the signal breaking up the more you push into the red. I did NOT say that there was technically no Distortion, S/N, Wow& Flutter, Frequency Response etc etc in analog, I quit reading specs a long time ago. My intentions of this post was to see if there were anyone else that had/has great experiences with tape and not just saying they like it just for that "warm" or "colored" or "distorted" sound but just for plain good quality and yes even crispy highs....

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Nice effort explaining it....but I'm afraid it will fall on "deaf ears"....same as it did in the thread that got closed.

The whole point (IMO) these days for using analog is that in most cases is DOES change/color the original signal in some way...mostly in a favorable way....and that change (as has already been defined)....is technically "distortion".
Not sure why there's such a obsessive effort to prove that analog has none.

Actually miroslav it hasn't fell on deaf ears(Im not deaf yet) and toddyjoe is definitely correct in some of his assements but not all. Audible distortion still means to me, when you hear distortion with your ears. I have always avoided "audible distortion"(my definition of) by meticuously setting the recorders levels. I shall elebaorate further if I need to....

 

[miroslav]

Look....from a subjective point of view, you can say anything you want....and it's valid.
From an objective point.....you have to go with established standards and references, and NOT what something means "to you".....'cuz that's when you get into trouble.

The fact that YOU don't hear "audible" distortion is meaningless to everyone else in any argument about audio other than to YOU.
No one can know what you do and don't hear...so using that as some "standard" from which you then base your discussions...won't always work. Saying you don't hear obvious, crunchy distortion is NOT something anyone was suggesting was always there with analog/tape....but the fact remains that analog/tape always colors the sound...and that's not necessarily good/bad...but it does equal "distortion".
So the minute you hear some color/flavor/warmth/etc added post-analog/tape (and most people do)...it's there.

I've been recording to tape for a very long time, and I have a full-tilt analog studio (the DAW only makes up a small portion of it)...so you don't ever need to preach analog and tape to me, but you also don't need to talk about "sterile" digital, because that discussion is pretty dead these days. It's more "transparent", "neutral, un-colored"...etc....but when you view it as sterile you ARE then accepting that analog/tape IS adding something to the original source....so once again....you're back to "distortion"....as pleasing as it may be.

Personally, I think analog/tape is more than that, since I feel the experience...the journey...adds a lot to what product you end up with, and for me, analog and tape is just THAT much more of a pleasant journey, so it does have an effect on the product.
Computers tend to be more clinical/analytical...but they are JUST tools. You can still manipulate the audio into whatever shape you want it to be (and frankly, digital has WAY more options for that).

So........if your product doesn't sound good to you with digital....it's your own fault.
If you just hate working with computers and prefer analog gear...that's a different thing, and is more about the journey.

Anyway...not sure why you're trying to carry the same discussion here....that was closed in that other thread.
Go record some music on your tape deck and then let's hear what you end up with. Show off you product and enjoy yourself...and let the digital guys do the same.

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Look....from a subjective point of view, you can say anything you want....and it's valid.
From an objective point.....you have to go with established standards and references, and NOT what something means "to you".....'cuz that's when you get into trouble.

The fact that YOU don't hear "audible" distortion is meaningless to everyone else in any argument about audio other than to YOU.
No one can know what you do and don't hear...so using that as some "standard" from which you then base your discussions...won't always work. Saying you don't hear obvious, crunchy distortion is NOT something anyone was suggesting was always there with analog/tape....but the fact remains that analog/tape always colors the sound...and that's not necessarily good/bad...but it does equal "distortion".
So the minute you hear some color/flavor/warmth/etc added post-analog/tape (and most people do)...it's there.

I've been recording to tape for a very long time, and I have a full-tilt analog studio (the DAW only makes up a small portion of it)...so you don't ever need to preach analog and tape to me, but you also don't need to talk about "sterile" digital, because that discussion is pretty dead these days. It's more "transparent", "neutral, un-colored"...etc....but when you view it as sterile you ARE then accepting that analog/tape IS adding something to the original source....so once again....you're back to "distortion"....as pleasing as it may be.

Personally, I think analog/tape is more than that, since I feel the experience...the journey...adds a lot to what product you end up with, and for me, analog and tape is just THAT much more of a pleasant journey, so it does have an effect on the product.
Computers tend to be more clinical/analytical...but they are JUST tools. You can still manipulate the audio into whatever shape you want it to be (and frankly, digital has WAY more options for that).

So........if your product doesn't sound good to you with digital....it's your own fault.
If you just hate working with computers and prefer analog gear...that's a different thing, and is more about the journey.

Anyway...not sure why you're trying to carry the same discussion here....that was closed in that other thread.
Go record some music on your tape deck and then let's hear what you end up with. Show off you product and enjoy yourself...and let the digital guys do the same.

READ MY OPENING POST:

Just wanted to start a thread in hopes that other guys besides myself think like I do about analog (open reel/cassette based) recordings. Ive always purposely gotten "clean" sounding recordings (with no audible distortion) out of my recorders. Maybe its just cause Im a perfectionist and had new machines back then and always used the best tape for the machine, kept the heads cleaned etc etc during recording. Ive never had audible distortion on my analog recordings unless I really really kept the needles buried in the red.
I hope to hear from some of you that have had the wonderful experiences with tape as I have and still do....

 

[miroslav]

READ MY OPENING POST

I did.

You're in the Analog Only forum. I think it's safe to say that most everyone who posts here is working with analog/tape because they enjoy the experience. So pretty much any/all threads here already answer your call.

The whole "no audible distortion" thing here is just a carryover point of yours from the thread that got closed.
Obviously, you aren't done with it yet.....

You know...instead of driving this "no audible distortion" nail....why don't you instead just talk about your recording sessions, your gear and analog/tape techniques, post up some of your tape-based clips, etc.....just sayin'.
I've seen some of your other posts...but I honestly have no idea what kind of music you do or what kind of recording background you've come from, etc.....
I see you generally talk about your love of tape and TASCAM gear, which is cool...but doesn't reveal much.

Anyway...I'm just trying to talk you down off that ledge you stepped out on a few days ago....

 

[CrowsofFritz]

I must ask, TM, why would you make a post like this? I ask this sincerely with no contempt. The reason I ask is this: while some digital prefer-ers may point out that tape has distortion, W&F, saturation, etc., that's not the main reason everyone goes to digital.

Some regulars on here MAY be able to say that I've made 3-4 posts on the analog forum debating whether or not I should switch to digital. They were all helpful and informed me exactly the info I wanted. I chose to stay with digital, not for the sound (I actually really like tape as I've used a friend's system before), but for the workflow and the lack of learning curve. Plus, it gave me an excuse to buy a better computer!

The reason I'm saying all this is because you seem to make these posts looking for validation in what you're saying: that analog is just as good as digital. Nobody is saying otherwise.

 

[Chilljam]

Not sure why there's such a obsessive effort to prove that analog has (no distortion).

It's all in the math...

Transparent recording medium = better

Tape = better

=> Tape = transparent recording medium.

READ MY OPENING POST

I didn't mean to start a war, just wanted to point out that you are mixing up the term 'clipping' with 'distortion'.

Dr. Horst Schlader explains it well in the clip below:

 

[TASCAM MAN]

Just wanted to start a thread in hopes that other guys besides myself think like I do about analog (open reel/cassette based) recordings. Ive always purposely gotten "clean" sounding recordings (with no audible distortion) out of my recorders. Maybe its just cause Im a perfectionist and had new machines back then and always used the best tape for the machine, kept the heads cleaned etc etc during recording. Ive never had audible distortion on my analog recordings unless I really really kept the needles buried in the red.
I hope to hear from some of you that have had the wonderful experiences with tape as I have and still do....