I came across this

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stupidfatnugly

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as I was researching gain staging

"Start your mix with your faders set to an average position of half to two-thirds of the fader travel."

does this mean press record after you have pulled it down a little, or record your track and then pull it down?
 
No. When tracking, you should typically set your fader to unity gain (0) and adjust the tracking level with the trim control.

Trim for tracking. Fader for mixing.
 
as I was researching gain staging

"Start your mix with your faders set to an average position of half to two-thirds of the fader travel."

does this mean press record after you have pulled it down a little, or record your track and then pull it down?
You have to pay attention to what the context of the advice is. Using an m-box requires a different procedure than using a console. Anyway, it says "Start your MIX with your...", so it isn't talking about recording at all.

The thing to remember is that the mixer in protools is in the computer. Therefore, it is AFTER the converters. All the advice about gain staging is mainly to keep the ANALOG side of things working correctly. Turning down a Fader in a DAW doesn't help because in only works on the signal once it is digital. (after it has been through the converters)
 
so you record all your tracks then pull down all your faders and then you begin to mix?

or you can just pull your fader down right after you record a track

but either way it is good practice to always pull your faders down before you do any mixing.

or are you saying: because it is digital, don't worry about this?

this picture is of a digital mixer: http://emusician.com/tutorials/max_headroom/
 

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That tutorial was written with "record your tracks as hot as possible" in mind. That's why you would need to pull the faders down.


If you record at proper levels, there is no need to pull the faders down.

It all goes back to the gain staging thing in the other thread, if you record at an average of -18dbfs, everything just works out the way it is supposed to and you don't have to go through all these extra steps to make up for recording too hot.

You will notice that 2/3 of the fader travel is unity gain (0) in the picture
 
I'm trying to understand this "trim control" thing.

in protools there's a trim tool that changes your waveform. when I do a search everything is referring to this.

I found this on another site:

Pre-amp Trim level
This is the amount of gain (volume) applied to the mic signal, and it is calibrated in db (decibels) from 0 to typically 60db All mics differ a bit on how much juice they need. If you have a condenser mic, phantom power needs to be engaged to power the preamp. Dynamic mics don't need phantom power. Most mics will fall between 15-40db of boost. Have your vocalist practice singing and try to get the loud peaks to peg close to 0db. This will give the compressor a healthy level to work with. If you are not using a compressor you will have to lower the trim to ensure the signal never reaches 0db. That is a much lower signal than you might think.

are we still talking about -18dbfs here for the vocal?

is the trim control just my input knob?
 
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I'm trying to understand this "trim control" thing.

in protools there's a trim tool that changes your waveform. when I do a search everything is referring to this.

I found this on another site:

Pre-amp Trim level
This is the amount of gain (volume) applied to the mic signal, and it is calibrated in db (decibels) from 0 to typically 60db All mics differ a bit on how much juice they need. If you have a condenser mic, phantom power needs to be engaged to power the preamp. Dynamic mics don't need phantom power. Most mics will fall between 15-40db of boost. Have your vocalist practice singing and try to get the loud peaks to peg close to 0db. This will give the compressor a healthy level to work with. If you are not using a compressor you will have to lower the trim to ensure the signal never reaches 0db. That is a much lower signal than you might think.

are we still talking about -18dbfs here for the vocal?

is the trim control just my input knob?
Yes, the trim control is the input knob (in your situation)

The 'record as hot as you can without hitting 0db' is a hold over from the early 90's when it was necessary because of thier crappy 16 bit converters. It really doesn't apply anymore, but they didn't rewrite that section of the manual.

-18dbfs rms is the way.
 
I found this on another site:

[snip]

Have your vocalist practice singing and try to get the loud peaks to peg close to 0db. This will give the compressor a healthy level to work with. If you are not using a compressor you will have to lower the trim to ensure the signal never reaches 0db.



I'm going to interpret this slightly differently than Farview, because if we're talking about 0dB VU then that's pretty much correct. 0dBVU is, for the most part, calibrated between -18dB FS and -14dB FS.
 
You'd be right if Farview was talking about the particular section you quoted but he isn't. He's referring to the OP's protools set up. Farview made the distinction quite clearly when he said:

"You have to pay attention to what the context of the advice is. Using an m-box requires a different procedure than using a console. Anyway, it says "Start your MIX with your...", so it isn't talking about recording at all.

The thing to remember is that the mixer in protools is in the computer. Therefore, it is AFTER the converters. All the advice about gain staging is mainly to keep the ANALOG side of things working correctly. Turning down a Fader in a DAW doesn't help because in only works on the signal once it is digital. (after it has been through the converters)"
 
That tutorial was written with "record your tracks as hot as possible" in mind. That's why you would need to pull the faders down.


If you record at proper levels, there is no need to pull the faders down.

what is considered "proper levels" ? When you record isn't the idea for a track to get it as close as possible without going over 0.0 (clipping?)

and what do you mean by -18dpfs?
 
what is considered "proper levels" ? When you record isn't the idea for a track to get it as close as possible without going over 0.0 (clipping?)

and what do you mean by -18dpfs?
No, because you never know when is it going to clip, so with 24bit converters you can safely use many dBs lower level without running into problems with noise.
 
I'm going to interpret this slightly differently than Farview, because if we're talking about 0dB VU then that's pretty much correct. 0dBVU is, for the most part, calibrated between -18dB FS and -14dB FS.
Well, except that Protools doesn't have VU meters, it has peak meters. And, VU meters don't measure peaks...
 
what is considered "proper levels" ? When you record isn't the idea for a track to get it as close as possible without going over 0.0 (clipping?)

and what do you mean by -18dpfs?
You must have missed his other thread about gain staging.

No, the 'track as hot as possible without clipping' is bad, outdated advice.

-18dbfs is the level that your signal should average on the input meter of your DAW. If the meter doesn't have a scale, shoot for about half way up.
 
You must have missed his other thread about gain staging.

No, the 'track as hot as possible without clipping' is bad, outdated advice.

-18dbfs is the level that your signal should average on the input meter of your DAW. If the meter doesn't have a scale, shoot for about half way up.

Please listen to Farview on this one. Don't get stuck in the 90's!:eek:
 
Gain Structure in Reader's Digest Version

I think that what trips a lot of people up is that both the "rules" (so to speak) and the metering are different on the analog side and on the digital side of the recording chain - and no matter how short or long one's recording chain is, if you're recording a microphone or an analog instrument to digital, it's *always* part analog and part digital.

On the analog side, the idea is to get best balance of high signal level and low noise. In other words, if you set your amplitude at any given "stage" or point in the chain too low, you'll be limiting your dynamic range and reducing your signal-to-noise ratio. If you push the gain too far at any given point, however, you're just boosting the gain on the amount of noise you have so far and also running the chance of overdriving the circuitry on the high side and introducing analog distortion (digital distorts on the high side by clipping, analog distorts by overdriving the circuitry.)

On the digital side, down stream from the analog side, noise level and dynamic range are no longer the main issues; you're stuck with whatever noise you're carrying over from the analog side and (unless you use an expander) the dynamic range of the recorded signal is also already set in stone by the analog signal. All we're really doing is making a digital recording of the analog signal as it is. Sure there will be digital distortion and artifacting, but as long as we don't clip, that will be equally true regardless of what recording level we choose on the digital side.

The only real issue that remains to be concerned with with setting digital recording levels is that we leave ourselves enough headroom on the top side of the signal so that a) we don't clip when we record, and b) we have enough headroom for the mixing process (when we mix tracks together, the overall signal amplitude will rise.)

This is one reason why "record as hot as possible without clipping" is not the best advice; it leaves us with no headroom to mix. Sure we can turn things down after the fact to make room, but that's just giving us extra work that we don't need, and wouldn't need to even worry about if we recorded quieter in the first place.

Now, as it turns out, the engineers and engineering committees who design the gear we use thought about all this and actually designed both the analog and digital sides to work fairly ideally if we follow a basic road map. That road map more or less follows the concept of "line level".

All "line level" means on the analog side is the nominal or average voltage of the signal at which the gear is designed to operate to it's design specifications. The audio engineering equivalent of a GPS navigation system for following this analog road map is the VU meter; 0VU indicates a voltage of exactly line level.

Now, the more experienced engineers know how to read specifications and use their critical listening skills to know how to deviate a bit off-road every once in a while in order to take advantage of some of their analog designs either to maximize their signal-to-noise ratio (which is what gain structure is mostly about), or to purposely introduce some analog noise or distortion effect for specific special effects purposes, but they still have internalized the idea that they still in general want to wind up pretty close where that road map is taking them.

The more inexperienced engineer who has a hard enough time staying between the ditches without crashing, let alone leaving the road on purpose, will typically want to keep their signal averaging somewhere around 0VU. This includes the signal level heading into the digital converter. As they get more experienced and learn the personalities of their analog gear better, they may purposely stray a bit more, but until then it's a pretty safe bet to keep things pretty much on the road.

This means that when it comes time to convert to digital, we are somewhat at the mercy of how the analog to digital converter is designed; i.e. just what digital level it is designed to convert a given analog signal level such as 0VU into. This is where the -18dBFS figure comes in; while not all converters are designed exactly the same, it can be said that, on average, converters will convert a voltage of 0VU into a digital signal of -18dBFS. Some converters will be a couple of dB higher, some a couple of dB lower, but in text posts like this, it's easier to just average it to -18dBFS.

Now, there may be times where the analog signal is so dynamic - it has transient peaks that are so far above the average signal level (and that we never see on a VU meter because they happen so fast), that maybe that 18dB of headroom between the average signal level in digital and the top limit of 0VU is not enough, and we see clipping. This is quite rare, but it's not impossible. If so, then we can just turn down the input level on the converter/interface until we have enough peak headroom so as not to clip on the digital meters. No problem.

But if our peaks fall well below 0dBFS, there is no reason or advantage to boosting the signal into the converter;, it provides us with no sonic advantage to do so - i.e. it won't sound better to do so. It only serves to boost the volume of the analog noise level being converted and recorded, while taking away potential headroom that we'll want for the mixing process anyway.

That's pretty much the long and the short of it in a nutshell. For an even more detailed description of all this stuff, head over to www.independentrecording.net and click on the "Metering and Gain Structure" icon.

G.
 
I'm still so confused. Let me try to place this in example:
1. I'm going to record an acoustic guitar track. Stereo (or mono whatever)
2. I play my guitar, look at my software, and see how loud it comes ups as.
3. Logic says when I play pretty loud it's at -3 db. The idea is to keep it under 0 db right?
4.Should I lower the gain so that the loudest I play only comes in at -18 db?
5. I lower the gain but when I listen back among other tracks the track will be very quiet right? So don't I have to raise the mixer slider in logic way up (it only goes to +6.0 db) ... ? Or do I add a gain audio unit or compressor or what?

I'm sorry I don't know this stuff I never really understood what you were supposed to do... I thought that when you recorded you want to get as close to 0 but not clip right? So is head room how many db you have until you clip (i.e. your loudest comes in at -15db ... therefore you have 15 db of headroom?) And when you mixdown don't you want your song to be as loud as possible without hitting 0.0 or higher? I think I really need to know this, sorry for the trivial questions that everyone probably knows, but I never really did.

thanks.
 
I'm still so confused. Let me try to place this in example:
1. I'm going to record an acoustic guitar track. Stereo (or mono whatever)
2. I play my guitar, look at my software, and see how loud it comes ups as.
right!
3. Logic says when I play pretty loud it's at -3 db. The idea is to keep it under 0 db right?
The meter is showing you the peaks. The peaks don't matter (as long as you keep it under 0db)

4.Should I lower the gain so that the loudest I play only comes in at -18 db?
No. You should set the gain so that the average level is at -18db. Strum a chord and hold it. Look at the meters and see what they say when you are holding the chord. The sustain should be somewhere around -18dbfs.

5. I lower the gain but when I listen back among other tracks the track will be very quiet right?
Only because you recorded the other tracks too loud. Recording level and mix volume are not related (recording and mixing are two separate processes), you don't adjust the recording level to change the mix.
So don't I have to raise the mixer slider in logic way up (it only goes to +6.0 db) ... ? Or do I add a gain audio unit or compressor or what?
IF all the tracks were recorded at proper levels, this wouldn't happen.

I'm sorry I don't know this stuff I never really understood what you were supposed to do... I thought that when you recorded you want to get as close to 0 but not clip right?
No.
So is head room how many db you have until you clip (i.e. your loudest comes in at -15db ... therefore you have 15 db of headroom?)
Kind of. Headroom is the difference between nominal level (line level) and the loudest level that the equipment can take.

And when you mixdown don't you want your song to be as loud as possible without hitting 0.0 or higher?
The volume of the mix doesn't matter. You can raise the volume in mastering.

Recording, mixing and mastering are all different processes that focus on different things.
 
farview you rock. thanks so much. Next time I record I will set my behringer mixer's gain knob to -18db (if there is a number that says that, for all of my tracks regardless of what instrument right?

thanks!
 
Well, except that Protools doesn't have VU meters, it has peak meters. And, VU meters don't measure peaks...


Really????

*shocked*


I didn't realise PT doesn't have VU meters.....how could I have missed that....I use that programme to earn a living.........shocking!!!!!


Just kidding.



For some reason I was assuming we were having some sort of an analogue front end to this...with VU meters...and..uuhh...... OK i don't know what I was thinking. But to be fair I was correct in my statement - it was just in the wrong context!!!



And now back to more useful posts...
 
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