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tojo
New member
whats the difference between vu meteres and peak meters?
Farview
Well-known member
No, you need to set the knob where ever you need to in order to get the signal level to read -18dbfs on the input meter when sustaining a chord/note/whatever.
Think about it, if there was one right place to set the knob, they wouldn't bother installing one...
MessianicDreams
New member
Rise/release time.
Basically, a VU (Volume Unit) meter is an indication of average level, whereas a peak meter is an indication of peak levels. Peak meters have very fast reaction time and so should be analogous to the actually level of the programme material. Most meters that you'll find in a DAW will be peak meters.
VU meters generally display from -20 to +10, however they are not an empirical measurement of any signal, unlike a peak meter - ie. 0dB VU is not a measurement in itself, as the VU meter is calibrated to a certain level. Other meters such as dB FS meters are actually measurements.
Farview
Well-known member
VU meters are found on analog equipment like preamps, mixers, compressors, etc... VU meters are pretty slow, so they don't react to fast peaks. They show you the average level of the signal. 0dbVU is in the middle of the scale (there are both negative and positive numbers) and your target level is 0dbVU. The headroom in the VU scale is from 0dbVU up to the limit of the equipment.
Peak meters are are found on digital equipment and in computer software. Peak meters are really fast, so they show you every little detailed jump in level. 0dbFS is at the top of the scale, you can't go any farther. So the headroom on the digital side is from the line level equivilent (-18dbFS) to 0dbFS.
Two different types of metering that are using two different scales. It's your job to translate the two.
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MCI2424
New member
Nothing, they both appear to be metric.
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stupidfatnugly
New member
I just exported this stereo track and I brought all the faders down so I could get it all to sound good with the snare and kick; but the snare and kick are too quiet, yet they are the ones that are causing my master fader to clip.
I'm having to turn my headphones knob up to about 80% of it's capacity, to hear it well. the song is just sounding worse and worse.
I'm trying to master it in protools, which all I know about that is to put a compressor on the master fader and turn it into a limiter with a 10:1 ratio. But, before, I had my headphone level at 50% and I could boost the volume a bunch with the limiter, now I can't put 2db of make up gain on it without clipping.
I printed my screen here which caught my faders at a quieter moment but everything is about half way (average) except for the master and the stereo track I'm recording, which I try to keep as close to 0 as possible. the master in the picture appears to be about half way up the meter which is where the average level of the other faders is. the peaks on the master goes all the way up to close to 0
what in the H is going wrong?
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stupidfatnugly
New member
I thought I could bring everything way down and at the end just limit it and put a bunch of make up gain on it and it would be the same volume as before.
am I just doing it wrong?
very frustrating
am I just doing it wrong?
very frustrating
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stupidfatnugly
New member
Farview
Well-known member
Are you mixing them so all the channels read half way up? The half way up thing is for when you are recording. Mixing, you set the level of each instrument to where it sounds good.
Recording, mixing and mastering are three different processes that have different techniques and focuses. You can't do them all at once.
Record everything so the meters read about halfway up the scale. With drums there is a very short decay, so you can't really get the rms level up to -18dbfs without clipping. With drums, just have them peak around -6dbfs.
When mixing, adjust the faders to get the levels of each instrument to blend with the others as you want them to. There is no specific level that any instrument needs to be. Just mix until it sounds good. Them mixdown to a stereo file.
When mastering, take that stereo file and import it into a new session of PT or bring it up in Wavelab or Soundforge or other mastering editor. Then apply the mastering EQ, compression, limiting, etc...
Simply setting a compressors ratio to 10 to 1 does not make it a suitable mastering limiter. Mastering limiters need to be extremely fast, which most compressors are not. I'm sure PT comes with a dedicated limiter for this sort of thing. If not, I'm sure there are freeware plugins that can be used.
Recording, mixing and mastering are three different processes that have different techniques and focuses. You can't do them all at once.
Record everything so the meters read about halfway up the scale. With drums there is a very short decay, so you can't really get the rms level up to -18dbfs without clipping. With drums, just have them peak around -6dbfs.
When mixing, adjust the faders to get the levels of each instrument to blend with the others as you want them to. There is no specific level that any instrument needs to be. Just mix until it sounds good. Them mixdown to a stereo file.
When mastering, take that stereo file and import it into a new session of PT or bring it up in Wavelab or Soundforge or other mastering editor. Then apply the mastering EQ, compression, limiting, etc...
Simply setting a compressors ratio to 10 to 1 does not make it a suitable mastering limiter. Mastering limiters need to be extremely fast, which most compressors are not. I'm sure PT comes with a dedicated limiter for this sort of thing. If not, I'm sure there are freeware plugins that can be used.
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stupidfatnugly
New member
this is confusing me a little. can't get drums up to -18dbfs? -18 is 3 times quieter than -6 is what I'm thinking. -6 is more than -18 so it would make it easier for something to clip that is at -6.
do I have this wrong?
I have wavelab essential and it has a compressor/expander/limiter/noise gate all in one and it looks like I can limit it and then add gain or normalize it. I read that I shouldn't normalize, so should I use gain and I should use that after limiting right?
looks like I have some research to do on limiting.
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stupidfatnugly
New member
in this picture I just added 10 db of gain. When I try to limit afterwards, it makes my very first notes peak, larger and then it frightens the listener.
does anything look wrong with this picture?
I have the limiter set up there where I tried to process it, I just pressed UNDO because it sucked.
does anything look wrong with this picture?
I have the limiter set up there where I tried to process it, I just pressed UNDO because it sucked.
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RAMI
Guest
I think you're over-thinking this, man.
Just record something and don't let it peak. Than, move the faders as you mix down to get each instrument to the volume you want it in the mix. It's pretty much that simple.
Like farview hinted at: Are you leaving all your faders at unity and expecting the song to mix itself???? The unilty gain is for recording. To mix, your faders can be anywhere they need to be to make a good mix.
Just record something and don't let it peak. Than, move the faders as you mix down to get each instrument to the volume you want it in the mix. It's pretty much that simple.
Like farview hinted at: Are you leaving all your faders at unity and expecting the song to mix itself???? The unilty gain is for recording. To mix, your faders can be anywhere they need to be to make a good mix.
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tojo
New member
So just to clear this up; everything I record should come in at or under -18dbfs? Like everything? And then I can mix from there on? It seems really quiet if I keep everything under that much. And besides what does the fs mean at the end of dbfs
I think i'll just stick to doing what Rami said.
I think i'll just stick to doing what Rami said.
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RAMI
Guest
NO. It should AVERAGE around -18. Meaning, it should hover around there, with the peaks being higher.
Well, nobody ever accused you of being stupid.
But, seriously, what I said about just plugging in, recording without peaking, and mixing, was just meant to say "Stop reading and typing and start recording". My suggestion is actually not correct, but it's better than NOT practicing your mixing.
Farview
Well-known member
The -18dbfs rms is the average level, the level of the sustain. The -6dbfs is the peak level, the level of the initial peak.
When recording, set the levels so that the rms level (the level of the sustain) sits around -18dbfs. (the peaks can be anywhere below 0dbfs)
Except in the case of drums and other short, percussive instruments. Then you just set it so that the peak level ends up around -6dbfs.
Normalizing isn't bad, it just has it's purpose. The 'don't normalize' advice is directed at people who normalize all thier individual tracks before they mix. In the context of mastering, when used as the final step, normalizing is just fine.
Take it one step at a time. If you haven't got recording and mixing down, adding mastering to the list of things to learn is just going to confuse the issue. With mastering, you use some of the same things you do in mixing, but for a different purpose and in a different way. Don't worry that your mixes aren't as loud as a commercial CD, the mixes aren't supposed to be.
Farview
Well-known member
Everyone gets this screwed up because the AVERAGE level, the level of the sustain of the note should be around -18dbfs. Not the peak, not the average peak. The average power of the signal.
The peak at the beginning of a piano note is really big and really short. That peak is not what we percieve as volume. What we percieve as the volume of the note is the volume of the sustain of the note, not the peak. The peak doesn't matter! The level of the sustain does.
That's because if your peaks are at -18dbfs, then your rms level is down around -30 or -40dbfs
Full Scale. The term db doesn't mean anything by itself. you have to know which scale you are refering to in order to know what the number means. In audio we tend to use four different db scales:
1. dbVU. This is the scale that analog VU meters read. 0dbVU is toward the center of the scale and is the reference level. There are both negative and positive numbers on a VU scale
2. dbFS. This is the scale used in digital audio applications. 0dbFS is the ceiling, there are only negative numbers on a FS scale
3 & 4. dbv and dbu. These are the two voltage scales used in the two types of line level that we use in audio.
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tojo
New member
farview your the best. When I read you want to keep thingss at an average of -18dbfs I said ooooooooooh pretty loud. So if i'm recording an acoustic guitar and I'm just strumming some chords then I would want to make sure that its generally staying around -18fs?
what if there's picking individual notes with strumming? Try and play those parts louder? Or add a compressor?
what if there's picking individual notes with strumming? Try and play those parts louder? Or add a compressor?
Farview
Well-known member
Strum the chord, adjust the level so the meters read around -18dbfs (about half way up the scale) as you hold the chord.
Now, when you play a little louder, the level will be higher than -18dbfs and when you play quieter, the level will be lower. That's how it works. Your job is to keep the average level around -18dbfs, not make sure that the meter never strays from it.
Now, when you play a little louder, the level will be higher than -18dbfs and when you play quieter, the level will be lower. That's how it works. Your job is to keep the average level around -18dbfs, not make sure that the meter never strays from it.
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tojo
New member
alright awesome thanks. So I guess that give me more headroom? What is the point of that?
Farview
Well-known member
Headroom is the difference between nominal level and the absolute ceiling. The peaks will take up the headroom in some cases, but not in others.
Instruments that don't have large transients, like strings, sine waves, distorted guitars and such, will not have high peaks. So it will not use the headroom.
Instruments with large transients like drums, pianos, harpsichords, will fill up the headroom with the peaks.
The point is not to use up all the headroom, it never was.
Instruments that don't have large transients, like strings, sine waves, distorted guitars and such, will not have high peaks. So it will not use the headroom.
Instruments with large transients like drums, pianos, harpsichords, will fill up the headroom with the peaks.
The point is not to use up all the headroom, it never was.
