You guys are kidding, right?

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Ed, now might be a good time to talk about jitter - and how many generations of digital copying with a bad jitter rate will cause SIGNIFICANT audio degradation!!

Just a thought... :)

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
Jitter.....

Well, depends really. Jitter usually gets recalculated if you record to a hard drive, so it is not really an issue if you are transferring to there.

But from like DAT to DAT, or CDR to CDR units, yes, jitter will mess it up in a hurry. This can also include having any digital unit inline between two other digital units. Jitter becomes a big issue. Also, some digital units do not use a true bypass mode, so if you are not using the unit, but have it in bypass mode, it may still be effecting the sound.

Ed
 
damn, ed. I think I could probably kick your ass in pool, too.


xoxoxo



ps you guys ROCK! seriously. Especially you dobro.
 
Re: Oh yeah....

sonusman said:
regebro, you claim audio degregation will NOT happen no matter what the method is.

I have said no such thing.
In fact I have often said that there are errors produced. I have only said *one* thing all this time, and that is that things are not so simple that you can say that 2x will ALWAYS produce more errors than 1x.



[Edited by regebro on 10-19-2000 at 00:47]
 
Let's not have any misunderstandings here okay? I have come back here for a moment at the urging of a friend in this group who emailed me.

A few points and you may 'elitest jerk' me all you want.

If I seem to be an 'elitest jerk' that is my prerogative I guess, or yours to perceive me as one. What I really am, is VERY busy trying to keep the world of recording moving forward with my mike designs, recording and producing efforts, and getting the last album I will ever play on due to the loss of my hands out the door for release.

I tried as hard as I could to make my points logical and concise, and I think many of you need to reread the post at the top of this thread =in its entirety= AND -not- focus on whatever sets you off.

My info -isn't- old, I assure you. And though 49, I get PAID to hear and detect microscopic differences, which over generation after generation add up! It's why people like Celine Dion and Linda Ronstadt George Massenburg et al, use our 0.9 micron diaphragms. =Someone= must hear a difference or we'd have been outta biz long ago! I still produce and master every day. I still sing and record. If you want proof of what my efforts can accomplish I suggest you visit the mp3.com page and =listen= to the results.

The only reason I may seem like a jerk is because it may seem outlandish to you, but being a pro who doesn't normally (anymore) stick his head in the door at these places, I HAVE to ask that if I AM going to take the time to try and explain or express a =point of view= based on 35+ years of recording experience, (once again, bio and history on MP3.com page "Info" tab,) I don't want to have to slog through -opinions- from =anyone= no matter how 'distinguished' stated as ='facts'=. (Please re-read entire prior sentence 'til understood before reacting!) Thus my request for humility and respect, and this is NOT motivated by an over active 'elitest jerk' ego.

It IS motivated by the effort and time I have available to take the immense energy required to expound upon =anything= as I do this for my bread and butter and passion.

I work in a world where we =respect= each other enough to never issue the kind of irresponsible statements like were issued by some here... No names (yet). If you want to have a flow of info from people like myself, (pros with experience working on the records that not only sell, but sound good, and that many of you try and emulate and learn how to do on a budget,) hopefully, try and get it into your heads that this =isn't= ego, it's =practicality=. Ego, I believe would simply be what is demonstrated by insisting you're RIGHT and no other view can be wrong, and if I have said this, PLEASE point it out to me so I may expunge it from my errant ways.) YOU need to check your own overinflated egos at the door, and -listen-, -consider- and =then= and only then, respond.

Like any true scientist, which I am, in addition to being an artist, I am VERY careful what I state as a 'fact'... I would never say anyone or anyTHING is just plain =wrong=... I -know- better.

I am not some elitest recordist who thinks everything has to be from Outer Space to be any good or make a sonic diff, either. My own records were all recorded in my living room on a Fostex 1" analog G24S, and again, why not =visit= the mp3.com page, =listen= to what I accomplished, and READ the lyric sheets, MANY or MOST of which have =extremely= detailed info on them about mikes used on which instruments, the type of instruments, cables, preamps, console, monitors, mastering chain, etc. and all for your perusal. No tricks up my sleeve I ain't willing to share.

After doing that, (and for those of you who like good music, I assure you it must be half decent, or the players I had work with me for free [my budget was shot] and toured with, some of the finest in the world, I would not have had the privilege and honor of working with) and looking at the sheer amount of data I =freely= give away on that site, (listen while you learn or compare or whatever) and you have a question or two and are =interested= in hearing my reply and not insisting on your own take on things, while of course being welcomed to your own =responsibly expressed= point of view, I MAY take the time and effort to answer it IF MY ENERGY LEVEL permits.

Lastly, I am not an idiot, whatever else I may be, and I can spot a thinly disguised sarcasm a mile away, such as the 'politeness' and irresponsible (from a science standpoint) statements of Mr. Regebro about what IS and ISN'T. May I suggest to you sir that you have no more idea of what IS or ISN't an absolute than I have, and I do -not- operate in a world of absolutes. As a physicist I operate in a world of things which are "highly suggestive of". It's called the Heisenberg priciple, and may I suggest you STUDY it.

As for my science qualifications, which do not appear on the mp3 pages, suffice it to say that though I am self-taught, it is true, yet I worked directly under the Deputy Director of the NIST on the SCSCP (the Super Conducting Super Collider Project, killed by congress, it was to be a 4 mile cyclotron, dwarfing that at Fermilab,) still do occasional work at JPL with the Deep Space Mission Control Group involving Digital Imaging and Recovery, (my dear departed friend Dick Heyser [inventor of TDS or Time Delay Spectrometry we use every day in my lab] crashed the first Surveyor on the moon <g> ) and 3D Image Analysis based on the VP-8 Image Analyzer technology used to examine the Shroud, (not to mention the cosmos) and still work with clients like NASA and Lawrence Livermore on peacetime cosmological studies when time (that most elastic yet seemingly in short supply of mediums) permits, etc.

Granted not a genius, but at least a rudimentary understanding of physics.

To conclude, I ask for respect, for reasons most of you evidentally don't get. I am asking that you respect =each other= not just me, and =humility= because we cannot throw blame at another without taking some on ourselves. The way many of you handle each other here (let alone visitors!!) is a -disgrace- to yourselves. Not so much to me. I'm used to this kind of crap from the know-it-alls that populate the earth. But you actually wonder why GM or others don't come here? Are you kidding? I make myself accessible to you, and get the feeling before I even parachute in that I'm surrounded by enemy sniper fire. True or not, IT'S HOW IT FEELS.

But here in your own sanctum? Well, we had a saying in the AF, "Don't s**t where you eat."

My attitude, in a nutshell is, if you'd like to see more working stiffs like me here, you need to work on your manners to attract them. If I spoke to one of my colleagues with the blatant egotism, bloated arrogance, and complete disregard for the accomplishments of one's life works and with the disrespect I have found here, I would alienate them quickly and rightly so. If you think I'm an elitest for that, very well. I am a humanist. That would be evident, were you not peering through your own dark glasses, and perhaps I through mine.

If you cannot see the humility in me even =coming= here, that's -your- problem. Humiliat-ING is more like it. And this =isn't= about EGO... it's about TIME and spending it wisely, (discoursing with those either at your level or wishing to attain it, or having enough humility of their own to demonstrate their willingness to learn, in SPITE of what they think...) or unwisely, taking all one's energy to defend oneself from baseless and half-cocked remarks because in this case, my own rep is =important= to me.

I believe in communication, however, even up to the point of fruitlessness, and if you think about it, this was only worth writing, because I take my job seriously. And part of that job is educating. But I have no time to educate those who already know. If that's elitest jerkism, then I am the biggest on earth. If it is simply not having time to pussyfoot around with nonsense, and defending every sentence I utter or write, SORRY, I'm BUSY!! Shouldn't take a genius to understand that.

SP
http://www.mp3.com/stephenpaul
 
Hmmmmmmm....improvement maybe....but I am still skeptical!

All fine and good that you are a very busy man with many responsibilities. I can respect that. In fact, many would envy that!

SP, I think you need to extend that same "investigative" breadth on this BBS as you expect it's members to have concerning you! Not all on here are stupid monkeys trying to copy what is going on around them. Take a little time and download the many mp3's on my website. You will see that I am a person trying to march to his own beat! Few find much wrong with how it sounds, and I NEVER try to make my clients sound like ANYTHING you have worked on! A small point, but worth consideration.

Take this for what it is worth. But, you really do owe a whole community of aspiring recording engineers an apology for your past statements that where just downright rude and malicious. Mostly, they were inaccurate!!! If you took the time to read what they actually said in context with the whole (something I would think a "scientist" would do naturally) you would find that these people displayed a healty skepticism that leads to exploratation, and thus, newfound knowledge that displays a grasp of the subject.

I still think you are an egotistic jerk because you can't seem to say that you were having a bad day and posted comments about a group of people that reflected more your mood at the time, or you misconception of their comments then "perceived" attacks against you. It may be that you were not having a bad day at all, and you are just a person that will apply wholesale condemnation when situations don't meet your expectations. You expect all here to accept proof prior to investigation with many of your comments. But I will bet a whole months pay that your WERE these very same people in a yesteryear. That you obtained much of your knowledge by challenging what the "experts" said in their day in a quest to know more! Maybe you are just way out of touch with what the common person knows. Not unprecedented for people who spend a lot of time tracking down knowledge.

So, lets remove everybody here but me now. Now you have just as much burden you investigate just what I am about and what I know as I of you! Let's get it on! You are on my turf, so all that I have ever shared is here for your inspection. Now you just need to put your cards on the table!

If you are so damned concerned with how you are perceived on this board that you will state nasty comments about the WHOLE membership here (with a few exceptions I guess, although your comments downplay that!) then take on the leader of the blind leading the blind! Here I am, open to critisism from someone of your stature and knowledge, ready to have the information I have shared over the last year or so DISPROVEN by the likes of someone like you. Please, do a search here of my username. Hell, I have over 1800 posts on this board! Surely, with all my imcompetence (this is more or less the synopsis of your description of the few "leaders" around here) you can find much fault in the information I have shared! Please, tell me EVERYTHING I have shared that has lead all the sheep around here down the road of audio ruin! Please! I hate sharing bad information with people. I would rather look like an imcompetent jerk who was corrected by someone with more knowledge on a subject then to have a bunch of people accepting what I share as being accurate! That is the way I really feel.

SP, I am not even a teacher. I once offered my services to a community college to start a course in recording and was flatly told they were not interested. I have had publications reject my submissions. I have had cheeseball web sites deny my submissions. Basically, it would seem that many do not regard what I have to say about audio to be worthy of people reading or hearing! Okay, I am no expert I guess. But, those who choose to read what I say, and even take the time to ask a few questions (or even try to call me on bullshit!) are rewarded with the best answer I can give. If I don't have the time to give my best answer, even when someone is challenging what I have previously said, I don't make comments like "if you knew who I was, you wouldn't be questioning what I say".

Don't you find it funny that most around here don't even KNOW who you are? Yet, those who share information freely, and in a polite manner, guys like Bob Katz, are VERY well known! Hmmmmmmmmm...I wonder why someone like Bob Katz, who takes the time to at least point people towards good information instead of calling them dummies is more known then you are? Even someone socially retarded knows the answer to this if they have read posts by you and Bob. You reply like an elitest jerk, and Bob replies like someone trying to help people understand something better! Yet, it would seem that Bob Katz has AT LEAST as good of a resume as you. He never plays the game of "you would not be arguing with me if you knew who I am and what I have done". No, I suspect that he smiles a little (probably remembering when he didn't know as much himself and made those somewhat stupid, uninformed statements) and gets down to being helpful. That is class!

But you, you are a teacher! Yet, you will blast a person who dares to post a legitimate doubt about "general" statements you have made! Instead of sharing information that would help them understand the issue better, you choose to insult their intelligence with statements that ANY normal person would find to be "elitest" and insulting in nature. It does not taking much of a reading understanding level to grasp the "intent" of your posts so far on here. With all your learning, I would assume that at some point you can find a way to articulate your point in a nice manner in far fewer words then it has taken you to insult the people around here and elsewhere. In fact, your writing thus far prove at least to me that you can in fact articulate a point fairly well with little effort. Yet, you spend the time to write lengthy flames! Don't give me the old "I don't have time to explain all this" when you have the time to blast everyone with 900 work rants about how they are all idiots!

SP, if you were to make statements to students in the classes that you teach in the same manner as you have here, you would not be teaching!

Dude, get real! Who is kidding who here? I have learned many times around this BBS that if you can't share some good info without being a jerk, just don't post! I have had to make apologies to people on this BBS before for statements I made towards them because those statements were outright malicious. Be a man and do the same.

One last thing. If the more professional people in audio production who work on the products that we are all familiar with are anything like you, I don't think many around here are too interested in them visiting these boards. I sure am not. If all I was to read from these people are rants like yours, I wouldn't waste my time reading them.

Grow up! You are 49!

Ed Rei
http://www.echostarstudio.com



[Edited by sonusman on 10-19-2000 at 02:58]
 
...before you rip sonusman a new one, Mr. Paul...

...please understand he's under a bit of emotional stress right now.

Now: the vast majority of the people here (or anywhere) do have respect for true experts such as yourself, but on the Internet, it is often true that people make snap decisions about others based on their attitude and posting etiquette alone. This is especially true if they haven't heard of you (and remember that the average home recordist has no idea who even invented multitracking let alone the electric guitar...a relative of yours perhaps? :-)

I believe that the essence of what some people were saying was that you too made a snap decision about "everyone" here based on a few posts.

I think everyone involved should calm down a bit. We're all human and few of us are perfect 24/7.
 
If I could only figure out how to package, sell, and ship ego. I could call it 'God in a Bottle'. Then I too could join the ranks of all the great men who have contributed so much to the world. Like Leonardo da Vinci, Guglielmo Marconi, Albert Einstein, Wernher von Braun, Stephen Hawking, Kermit the Frog, oh and of course S. Paul and his cohorts.
 
Mr Paul - a skillful teacher knows how to present the material in a form that's understandable to the student. You haven't done that yet.

If we're not qualified to understand the technical side of what you're saying in its present form, or if you're incapable of dumbing it down to our level, then we're wasting each other's time, correct?

If you talk over our heads, we don't learn anything. If you tell us how much you know, we don't learn anything. If you express yourself in terms only yourself or another expert can understand, we don't learn anything. If you tell us about your track record, and your right to respect and your humility, we still don't learn anything. These are all ways of wasting time.

If you've got something to say, can you say it in terms home recordists can understand? If not, perhaps a pro bulletin board would provide a more appropriate forum for what you've got to share.
 
Just my 2 sense (yes, I spelled it wrong on purpose)

I can give a rats ass whether burning CD-R's a 1x or 2x sounds best. I have met too many people that claim to be audiophiles who can hear grass grow and mice fart. It is a ridiculous argument. I can hear what you can't. So? Big deal. If such a person out there has such an astute ear, then I say put it to good use: predict earthquakes. Don't tell me that in a pristine listening environment, that you can her the subtle nuances that I (or the majority of people) cannot. I don't care. If it sounds good to me, well I will (in the words of the great Lemmy; "send it up a flagpole and see who salutes it") and that is good enough for most people.

As for Mr. Stephen Paul, I don't wish to discredit you in any way, and maybe your credits are recent. I studied at CSUN and know numerous people who attended the USC music program. We have never heard of you. It seems that you are better at building microphones than you are at building relationships and/or a reputation. Hence, your need for self absorbing and extremely long posts that prostitute your so-called ability. So you can hear your toenails grow? So what!

Whatever. Man, I am sick of this petty world. I need to have sex with Slackmaster and then have a nice, long post-intimate conversation with him about the world and it's sad state of affairs.


I have red, bumby things all ove my genetalia. I think I had better go now.

Brad
 
CMiller

Aaahhh... but are you perfect at 2x or even 4x? :)
 
I think this is quite enough of this "Stephen Paul Bashing Contest". It seems to me from his last point that he got the point. Yes, he should cool down and not act as paranoid, nobody here was out to get him (at least not up until yesterday). Yes, there are other people besides Stephen Paul that knows a lot of stuff here (even about quantum physics), so saying that this place is filled by people who doesn't know anything and doesn't listen to others is unfair. But he knows that now. Everybody knows that now. If somebody tries to explain what and why he was doing, give him or her a break.

Give it up, please!

[Edited by regebro on 10-19-2000 at 14:24]
 
just a closing thought

Truly humble people generally don't have to explain how humble they are three or four times in as many paragraphs.

Peace,
Jett-rocker
 
A Closing Thought?

I haven't even said anything yet! Oh I will.
 
As Keith Richards once said, "Where's that joint?"

Whaaaaaat????

Illusory voodoo, child.

Must be the season of the witch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Having conducted my own tests, the only reliable way to record audio CD's is to hand etch them with the pointy end of a $2.00 compass and cheap magnifiying glass. Works every time, although the "burning" process can take some years. But that's the price you pay for quality in this day and age.

I've nearly finished my CD (I tracked everything 11 years ago, and it's taken me this long to cut the master with my compass), and when it's done, it will redefine music quality....

- gaffa

Postscript:

I mean,who really gives a shit? If you can hear the difference at 2x, then fucking burn it at 1x, or 0.5x or not at all cos the technology isn't good enough. If it's good music, then it really doens't matter - people will still enjoy it.

I've got no idea who Stephen Paul is - never heard of him, probably cos I don't move in recording circles much. Still, I'm pretty sure that I'll still sleep well tonight.
 
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