Why do manufacturers hate us?

moresound said:
It's because they love our money more.
Click to expand...

Okay, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If I were to strip away all of the keys, and knobs, sliders, dials, software, interfaces, and LED displays and get down to the most basic functionality I'd find either a sampler, synthesizer, or both... and note that when I use the word 'synthesizer' I'm referring to a device that makes analog sound using electronics (or a computer model) in much the same sense that a theremin makes analog sound... 'off the cuff' and perhaps never heard by man or beast before. And note that not everything that is called a 'synthesizer' creates analog sound 'off the cuff' as near as I can figure out.

When it comes to samplers there appear to be two kinds... those that reference samples stored internally, and those that reference samples stored externally. And of course both. Keyboards that only reference sounds externally are called keyboard controllers (I use B&H's retail labels here), tend to be the cheapest (in both cost and quality), require a computer (with samples), and are the easiest to understand as to the functionality they offer. Let's ignore them.

I'm also going to cut analog synths off at the knees here. The sounds possible with a hardware synth can also (near as I can figure out) be crafted with a software synth (since every hardware synth nowadays appears to be basically a computer). Which... if true... kind of begs the question how in the heck does the Minimoog stay in the marketplace. But I digress.

So now I'm down to samplers with internal samples, a.k.a. 'arranger keyboards', 'digital/stage pianos', and 'sampling workstations'.

The only significant difference between 'arranger keyboards'/'sampling workstations' and 'digital/stage pianos' is (IMO) the triggers provided. Digital pianos don't have all the bells and whistles, the pads, faders, dials, etc. found on the former devices. 'Digital pianos' also seem to be lacking some software functionality offered in the other devices. But this is not to say that you can't play drums, or brass, or strings, et. al. using a 'digital piano'... just that you have to use the keyboard. And I appreciate that 'arranger keyboards' and 'sampling workstations' have specific functionality aimed at specific market segments. But from a high enough level it's six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as I can tell.

Keyboards... the actual physical black and white elongated thingies... have vastly different levels of quality. In terms of maximum bang-for-the-buck 'digital pianos' rule the roost here. If you want 'graded hammer action' in an 'arranger keyboard' or a 'synthesizer' it comes at a higher price point then in 'digital pianos'. Likewise 'high polyphony' (defined here as 128 voice polyphony or greater) is available at a lower price point in a 'digital piano' then in other keyboards.

So here I am, on a budget, more then a little frazzled, staring at the Casio PX-350 'digital piano'. It has 88 keys (expected in 'digital pianos' but something that kicks the price up significantly elsewhere), graded hammer action, 128 voice polyphony, MIDI I/O, USB connectivity, can function as a MIDI controller (a.k.a. keyboard controller), and costs $750.

To get that functionality in an 'arranger keyboard' I'd be dropping $2,200 for a Korg Pa588 (the only 88 key 'arranger keyboard'
B&H carries) or $2,400 for a Yamaha S90 XS 88 Key Hammer Action Performance Workstation Keyboard.

I'm thinking if I want to get the functionality that the more expensive keyboards offer I'll just pop for a $600 Native Instruments MASCHINE and use the $1K I'm saving for a pair of Adam A5X monitors... eventually.
 
The reason for extra costs are all the switches and dials, MIDI functionality, etc. The Casio may sound fine for what you need it for - or for sending a controller signal to an external device, but then you have to play with that device (or computer) to adjust the sounds/settings.
The 'arranger' keyboard lets you do all the changes at the keyboard itself.
 
mjbphotos said:
The reason for extra costs are all the switches and dials, MIDI functionality, etc. The Casio may sound fine for what you need it for - or for sending a controller signal to an external device, but then you have to play with that device (or computer) to adjust the sounds/settings.
The 'arranger' keyboard lets you do all the changes at the keyboard itself.
Click to expand...

I understand. Nor is everybody as big a cheapskate as me.
 
I've watched the developments of keyboard products with much interest. I came up as a musician before there were synths (back then you had a Farfisa) and then the Wurlies, Rhodes and Hammonds came along. A few yeas later the Moogs, etc. came along. I bought my first synth in the early 80's and have owned many synths and samplers along the way (I currently own 20 units).

First came the synths - allowing us to simulate orchesta sounds, etc. Then came synth modules - allowing us to have multiple "keyboards" without haveing to take up half the stage. Then came synths with some limited on board sequencing (the early "work stations"). Then came MIDI to allow the different synths and sequencers to communicate. Then came the early "samplers" allowing us to create our own sounds (who didn't have a sample of Marilyn Chambers moaning in orgasm?????). Then came controller keyboards (you didn't need on board sounds if you had all the modules and samplers). Then came bigger "multi-track sequencing" (bigger fancier "work stations" - geared more toward the recoding musician).

They don't hate us - they just develop newer better technology (like in any industry) - and we like sheep want/need to own the latest, greatest. I have seen the enemy - and it is me!!!!!
 
wheelema said:
The only significant difference between 'arranger keyboards'/'sampling workstations' and 'digital/stage pianos' is (IMO) the triggers provided. Digital pianos don't have all the bells and whistles, the pads, faders, dials, etc. found on the former devices. 'Digital pianos' also seem to be lacking some software functionality offered in the other devices. But this is not to say that you can't play drums, or brass, or strings, et. al. using a 'digital piano'... just that you have to use the keyboard. And I appreciate that 'arranger keyboards' and 'sampling workstations' have specific functionality aimed at specific market segments. But from a high enough level it's six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

Digital pianos have weighted keys and mostly piano samples. They, with acoustic and electric pianos, form an entirely separate class from non-weighted keyboards that include organs, synthesizers, samplers and controllers.
 
It's easy for manufacurers to hit niche markets with very small alterations to core components of a keyboard.
 
Moog stays in business because most of their products are really great and many of them have features exclusive to Moog products.

I'm biased because I own a Voyager and a Taurus3 and a bunch of MoogerFooger pedals. They all sound really far out and most of the parameters are able to be controlled with control voltages. I just picked up a Moog CV/MIDI controller pedal that outputs 4 channels of synced or free-wheeling LFO's or HADSR envelopes and gates to control analog synth and FX parameters. I just set up a patch where the LFO's are related to each other fractionally by half and quarter and are synced to each other and am using the CV to control parameters on various Moog pedals.
 
c7sus said:
Moog stays in business because most of their products are really great and many of them have features exclusive to Moog products.

I'm biased because I own a Voyager and a Taurus3 and a bunch of MoogerFooger pedals. They all sound really far out and most of the parameters are able to be controlled with control voltages. I just picked up a Moog CV/MIDI controller pedal that outputs 4 channels of synced or free-wheeling LFO's or HADSR envelopes and gates to control analog synth and FX parameters. I just set up a patch where the LFO's are related to each other fractionally by half and quarter and are synced to each other and am using the CV to control parameters on various Moog pedals.
Click to expand...

I need to keep on learning. Obviously. Thanks!
 
wheelema said:
Okay, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If I were to strip away all of the keys, and knobs, sliders, dials, software, interfaces, and LED displays and get down to the most basic functionality I'd find either a sampler, synthesizer, or both... and note that when I use the word 'synthesizer' I'm referring to a device that makes analog sound using electronics (or a computer model) in much the same sense that a theremin makes analog sound... 'off the cuff' and perhaps never heard by man or beast before. And note that not everything that is called a 'synthesizer' creates analog sound 'off the cuff' as near as I can figure out.

When it comes to samplers there appear to be two kinds... those that reference samples stored internally, and those that reference samples stored externally. And of course both. Keyboards that only reference sounds externally are called keyboard controllers (I use B&H's retail labels here), tend to be the cheapest (in both cost and quality), require a computer (with samples), and are the easiest to understand as to the functionality they offer. Let's ignore them.

I'm also going to cut analog synths off at the knees here. The sounds possible with a hardware synth can also (near as I can figure out) be crafted with a software synth (since every hardware synth nowadays appears to be basically a computer). Which... if true... kind of begs the question how in the heck does the Minimoog stay in the marketplace. But I digress.

So now I'm down to samplers with internal samples, a.k.a. 'arranger keyboards', 'digital/stage pianos', and 'sampling workstations'.

The only significant difference between 'arranger keyboards'/'sampling workstations' and 'digital/stage pianos' is (IMO) the triggers provided. Digital pianos don't have all the bells and whistles, the pads, faders, dials, etc. found on the former devices. 'Digital pianos' also seem to be lacking some software functionality offered in the other devices. But this is not to say that you can't play drums, or brass, or strings, et. al. using a 'digital piano'... just that you have to use the keyboard. And I appreciate that 'arranger keyboards' and 'sampling workstations' have specific functionality aimed at specific market segments. But from a high enough level it's six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as I can tell.

Keyboards... the actual physical black and white elongated thingies... have vastly different levels of quality. In terms of maximum bang-for-the-buck 'digital pianos' rule the roost here. If you want 'graded hammer action' in an 'arranger keyboard' or a 'synthesizer' it comes at a higher price point then in 'digital pianos'. Likewise 'high polyphony' (defined here as 128 voice polyphony or greater) is available at a lower price point in a 'digital piano' then in other keyboards.

So here I am, on a budget, more then a little frazzled, staring at the Casio PX-350 'digital piano'. It has 88 keys (expected in 'digital pianos' but something that kicks the price up significantly elsewhere), graded hammer action, 128 voice polyphony, MIDI I/O, USB connectivity, can function as a MIDI controller (a.k.a. keyboard controller), and costs $750.

To get that functionality in an 'arranger keyboard' I'd be dropping $2,200 for a Korg Pa588 (the only 88 key 'arranger keyboard'
B&H carries) or $2,400 for a Yamaha S90 XS 88 Key Hammer Action Performance Workstation Keyboard.

I'm thinking if I want to get the functionality that the more expensive keyboards offer I'll just pop for a $600 Native Instruments MASCHINE and use the $1K I'm saving for a pair of Adam A5X monitors... eventually.
Click to expand...


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Well, that is why you've never walked into a studio that has 1 'keyboard'
 
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