Vocal Recording: 1 take vs. punch-ins?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

And you know what? Sometimes a performance is right even if there are a couple "mistakes" in it. Perfection is not always perfect.

The only reason Loius Armstrong first started scatting was because he forgot the words. Imagine if that never made it to tape (or schellac).

And there's no law that says every last binary digit or oxide crsytal has to be perfectly clean of sibilance or popping. If it adds to the feel of the performance, leave it in. If not , take it out.

G.

 

[RAMI]

And you know what? Sometimes a performance is right even if there are a couple "mistakes" in it. Perfection is not always perfect.

The only reason Loius Armstrong first started scatting was because he forgot the words. Imagine if that never made it to tape (or schellac).

And there's no law that says every last binary digit or oxide crsytal has to be perfectly clean of sibilance or popping. If it adds to the feel of the performance, leave it in. If not , take it out.

G.

Absolutely...I pride myself on being a master at imperfect perfection. It's perfectly normal to be imperfect.

 

[Jack Russell]

I can't believe the timing of your posts. It's like you've been reading my mail. I took the day off from work to lay down vocal tracks and took time to get the mic and room setup just right. I did about 4 takes of 4 different songs and they all just suck. It really makes me wonder why I dished out the money for an RNP....... I can not sing........ Like you, the demos of my songs that other singers have done, even some in Nashville that the publishers paid for, just aren't believable, flawless but no soul or believability. I think I interpret the emotion the best, but I have such a hard time maintaining pitch. It's a drag because I hear what I want to sing in my head and my voice just won't do it. I turned it all off and went to bed to take a nap all depressed. This was one of those days where I want to sell it all........
I think I need a vocal coach, if not a producer, who will just kick my ass and have the objectivity to tell me when it's done. Of course, that takes $$$

bilco

I hear ya, man. I've been working on the vocals of one tune for about a month. I've rehearsed it with a guitar, as well as with a rhythm track. I thought I had it nailed the other night. Then I played the mix for my wife*. She gave it a thumbs down. In my case, it doesn't seem to be a pitch problem, but something else.

I've taken voice lessons, and I've been practicing with Roger Love's vocal training CD. So, I do think my pitch has improved, as well as my breathing, but still...maybe I just don't have the pipes. It is like an ugly person trying to look good.

I do think having someone else act as a producer can help, but if you are really too bad then why waste someone's time?

I have worked with other "real" vocalists in the past. The results have been on pitch, and technically well performed, but DULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. and BORING and even PLAIN

So, the struggle goes on........
___________________
*I forgot: as bas as I am, My wife, astoundingly, thinks I sing better than the lead singer of Radiohead. What am I supposed to think?

 

[Jack Russell]

I listened to the takes I did the other night and guess what...... They don't sound bad....... I have to watch these perfectionistic self-critical moods I get in and just keep recording.

bilco

Roger Love's book recommends that you begin first by recording yourself reading a passage of text. Then play it back. Listen to the natural good and bad points of your voice. A lot of it has to do with inflection and diction. Good speech is a key to better singing, aside from pitch.

Sometimes just becoming familiar with it helps also. And a different set of ears from your own.

 

[ez_willis]

I hear ya, man. I've been working on the vocals of one tune for about a month. I've rehearsed it with a guitar, as well as with a rhythm track. I thought I had it nailed the other night. Then I played the mix for my wife*. She gave it a thumbs down. In my case, it doesn't seem to be a pitch problem, but something else.

How long have you been married?

After awhile, everything you do will get a thumbs down.

 

[orksnork]

vocal comping is really the only way to go, as far as i see it anymore

if someone feels that they truly need to use one great take...have fun with that...but it's not for me, or the people i record (generally)

 

[bilco]

I hear ya, man. I've been working on the vocals of one tune for about a month. I've rehearsed it with a guitar, as well as with a rhythm track. I thought I had it nailed the other night. Then I played the mix for my wife*. She gave it a thumbs down. In my case, it doesn't seem to be a pitch problem, but something else.

I've taken voice lessons, and I've been practicing with Roger Love's vocal training CD. So, I do think my pitch has improved, as well as my breathing, but still...maybe I just don't have the pipes. It is like an ugly person trying to look good.

I do think having someone else act as a producer can help, but if you are really too bad then why waste someone's time?

I have worked with other "real" vocalists in the past. The results have been on pitch, and technically well performed, but DULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. and BORING and even PLAIN

So, the struggle goes on........
___________________
*I forgot: as bas as I am, My wife, astoundingly, thinks I sing better than the lead singer of Radiohead. What am I supposed to think?

A couple of things come to mind.....

I love my wife and on some things she is my biggest fan and supporter, but she has hated several songs I've written and in some cases I just put them away, intending to never play them out live. Eventually I did play them and guess what? They get some of the best audience reactions of anything I play. So, keep on lovin' your wife, but get a 2nd opinion about the quality of your voice on those tracks!!

Give it some distance. I went back and listened to the tracks that I thought were so bad after staying away from it a few days and there are a couple of spots I could punch in or autotune, but they are way better than I thought they were at the time. I think maybe you are as self-critical as I am. Tell your internal critic/editor to take a hike.

Get some objective yardsticks to measure by. I browsed iTunes today, looking for artists and songs that have the kind of production that I want my project to sound like, Guy Clark, Steve Goodman, Union Station, The Greencards, Nanci Griffith, John Prine, Townes VanZandt, Gillian Welch. I realized that not all of those songs are as strong as their best and I realized that some of those voices are pretty quirky, but instantly recognizeable on the radio. As long as you are singing with conviction, emotion, urgency, from the heart, it doesn't matter if you are a "REAL" singer.

I am going to try this one and I'll let you know how it works. I am going to set up Pro Tools to loop record one take after another and just stack the takes up like pancakes. I am going to try to just let go and experiment, some takes I'll concentrate on pitch, on others I'm just going to let go and shoot for the emotion of it.

Finally, my wife says that nothing sounds as good as me just singing the song alone in the kitchen. I am going to give live to 2 track recording a try, maybe even get a small group of folks in to listen.

I know the number one thing I am doing wrong is that I am turning this into something stressful instead of doing it for the sheer joy of it. I think it is because I now have gear that in theory could produce professional grade quality and so I want it to be perfect. Back when it was me and a 4 track cassette, I didn't get caught up in the perfectionism so much. I knew it was going to sound like a demo, so I just had fun.

One last thing - I have been in bands where the sum of the parts blew away what each one of us was capable of individually. Of course, it is like being married to 3 or 4 other people and their egos and right about the time the Promo Pack and Demo Tape gets done, it always seems to break up. In spite of that, I think I am ready to jump back in if I can find some likeminded songwriters looking for a harmony singing bass player.

bilco

 

[Dr.Bootleg]

I used to do all my vocals in one take but that was before I knew what I was doing. There's nothing wrong with punching in. It's not like you're punching in on the bad parts and putting someone else's voice on there to fix it. Please. However, when you improv vocals and lyrics it can be really fun too. I've made some great stuff that way.

I'm certainly not the best singer either. I have little to no high range but I work with what I have. That's what you have to do. Find your range and exploit it to high hell. Find out how loud you can belt stuff out. For my current record I'm really having to over-project my voice because my mic is a pile and it won't pick anything up otherwise. (I need a real mic).

I used to really hang on what my girlfriend thought of my songs. I couldn't wait to play her something new and if she didn't like it it bummed me out. Now, I don't care. If I like it that's all that matters. Besides you can't really get a feel for a song by just listening to it once. There are many songs that I've listened to I thought were total crap but the more I listened to them the more I heard them. And they turned out to be great songs.

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

I very rarely just sing, I'm usually playing the guitar as well and recording all in one take so punch-ins aren't really an option.

It's personally how I like to do things anyway, I like the idea of a recording being a 'proper' performance in itself. As such I don't seek absolute perfection in recordings in terms of the audio quality or the performance; a bit of a string buzz or a slightly mis-timed lyric in an otherwise good take is a part of the performance and as long as it doesn't really leap out or make me cringe then it's OK.

If I'm making major mistakes then I haven't practiced enough anyway, in that respect I find that through the recording process I get to know the song really intimately, moreso than just through normal practice so things tend to be fairly solid when it comes to playing live.

Of course I don't have particularly high standards to meet as far as the actual recordings go, I don't demand it of myself and I don't have clients, a record label or management company who are demanding it either.

It's just the way I like to do things, I'm sure there are tons of records I love which have been recorded in ways I wouldn't particularly like to record myself.

 

[Jack Russell]

I love my wife and on some things she is my biggest fan and supporter, but she has hated several songs I've written and in some cases I just put them away, intending to never play them out live. Eventually I did play them and...They get some of the best audience reactions of anything I play. So, keep on lovin' your wife, but get a 2nd opinion about the quality of your voice on those tracks!!

Right on!

I am going to set up Pro Tools to loop record one take after another and just stack the takes up like pancakes. I am going to try to just let go and experiment, some takes I'll concentrate on pitch, on others I'm just going to let go and shoot for the emotion of it.

That sounds like a great idea. It will take extra time to sort through all the takes later, though. A suggestion: mix each one down with a very sparse music background. Then listen to them while you are doing something else, like cooking.

Finally, my wife says that nothing sounds as good as me just singing the song alone in the kitchen.

It's uncanny how many things you've said resonate with me. I sang a few of my tunes while doing dishes one day in the kitchen. I swear it was dead on and very good sounding. It was as though taking my mind off it allowed me to relax more and let it flow out naturally. Hard to reproduce in the vocal booth!

right about the time the Promo Pack and Demo Tape gets done, it always seems to break up. In spite of that, I think I am ready to jump back in if I can find some likeminded songwriters looking for a harmony singing bass player.

Ditto! I've had a few bands dissolve right after the promo pack gets done! I'm a bassist/writer also. Better suited to back-up singing without a doubt.

Anyway, good luck with it.

 

[Halion]

Sometimes first take, but mostly punch-ins.

However, I've found that if you do a full take of the entire song three times, the third time is the best one most of the time, and very little punch-ins are needed to get a good results. I don't like going over every single little "could be better" part and retracking that word/sylable/whatever. Takes the natural feel out of the track. I'll even leave in little slip ups and timing irregularities if they help the feel of the song.

 

[Jagular]

It's uncanny how many things you've said resonate with me. I sang a few of my tunes while doing dishes one day in the kitchen. I swear it was dead on and very good sounding. It was as though taking my mind off it allowed me to relax more and let it flow out naturally. Hard to reproduce in the vocal booth!

Just another thought or two...

I used to have trouble capturing a vocal track I really liked. I think over the years I have figured out a few reasons for this...

1. I didn't really sound like I thought I sounded like. I grew up singing live in all sorts of environments (choir, bands, church, etc..) and never really was exposed much to recordings or my voice. I have always been told since I was a kid that I had a good voice. But I never "heard" myself. So I had an image of what I sounded like in my head. When I got recording equipment the actual sound coming back didn't align perfectly with what I THOUGHT I sounded like.

2. I didn't know the mechanics of getting a good vocal track. Like where to sing in the mic. How far to back off. When should I get up close, etc. I had a little idea from live performances but in the studio with condenser mics it seemed a bit of a different (although related) ball game. That took me a while to get used to. I also did learned that equipment can make a difference. I've gotten to a point where I am mostly happy with my sound now. However, I am itching to get into a "real" studio again because I think that there might be even a little more of an extra pick up in the how good my vocals would sound in that environment. If I ever put together a CD of me I may pay to use a studio to record the vocals. It might only be a 5% or maybe 10% gain, but it would be cool to my ears.

3. Studio anxiety. I had the hardest time feeling comfortable singing in the studio. I was used to singing live and having an audience. It seemed to me that my studio performances were sort of sterile. That just took me not quitting to get over that feeling. I still think there is an energy that is hard to capture by myself in a room. But I think I am getting better at it all the time.

4. I never had a producer to help direct me. This may not be necessary for some vocalists. However, I have been fortunate enough to work with a couple of producers over the last few years where I learned a lot. That and listening to a lot of other vocalists and hearing how they bring emotion into a song. Again, this seems like something I did more naturally in a live setting, but needed some direction in a studio setting.

5. Over singing. This may not apply to you but this is something I have struggled with and continue to struggle with. Coming up singing in live settings, especially more classical settings like choir, soloist competitions and drama productions I was always tought to project. Through all of that I developed a pretty strong voice. One of my first times in a studio I had an engineer come and set me all up and we started doing some takes. This was all for fun (I had a friend that worked there and we were messing around after hours). I started singing and he hit the talk back and said, "man you got some volume there". LOL...apparently, most vocalists he had worked with didn't have quite as hot of a signal LOL. Anyway, over the years of not being entirely happy with my vocal tracks and again, listining carefully to other vocalists, I learned that my natural inclination was to go all out all of the time. That didn't allow for as much emotional highs and lows in a song. And I'm not just talking about volume either. There are things I now do with my voice that I couldn't do just belting it out. Little cracks here or there more breathy sounds leading in or out of a phrase. What really got me noticing this is that as I listened to recordings of other vocalists I noticed that their breathing and some sillibance were louder compared to their voice than mine. That got me thinking. Hmmm...maybe I'm singing too darn loud. Sounds simple, but it took me a long time to try to break that habit (still need to whip myself once in a while) because it was so engrained. Now when I do belt a little there is usually something there to contrast it and that makes the belting much more effective.

This all seems pretty simple. But I guess I just used to sing out and not really think of my voice as an instrument. An instrument that needs to be cared for, can produce different tones and timbres that can be fun to experiment with and arranged to fit different needs. Once I started looking at things more like that (and with a little direction here and there) singing has become a little more difficult but the results have been improving. Hey, I'm still working on it. In fact, I'd like to get some vocal coaching. I think that would be a lot of fun and could open up even more possibilities.

 

[rustyblue]

If your a very good singer it can be done in one take, but this represents mabe 5% of the artist. The other one's has to make punch ins and comping tracks to achieve their goals. Alot of well-knowed singers does it so don't be shy to use this technique it if you want to achieve the best results.

 

[Signal 9 Studio]

I record mostly punk bands...for some reason they flock to me????? So I do ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of punches.

 

[Robertt8]

One take. I actually do better at redoing the entire take than punching in...then again most of my songs are slammed with lyrics which makes it damn hard to even find a gap to punch in. when it do, i find that that natural flow is some much better just to redo the whole damn thing one more time. when it comes to harmonies, i usually just punch those in in those places where its needed. otherwise i end up with extra noise i dont need.

 

[easlern]

I try to do everything in one continuous take. Whenever I do a punch-in, I can't seem to get back to the exact same seating position and you can hear the difference in takes. And yeah, I am a newb.

 

[easlern]

There are some really good discussions about vocals going on in this thread. Personally, I've found that I'm happiest with my voice when I'm playing the guitar track at the same time, with no compression at all, and minimal punch-ins. I think the little pitch and phrasing mistakes that occur are essential to a good recording. It's endearing, as if someone were just talking to you. I mean, who would you rather listen to- Celine Dion or Mick Jagger? Celine Dion is a technical master, but I can't stand a single note of her s**t. Mick can't sing for spit but I hang on every note coming out of the guy's mouth.

 

[Jack Russell]

There are some really good discussions about vocals going on in this thread. Personally, I've found that I'm happiest with my voice when I'm playing the guitar track at the same time, with no compression at all, and minimal punch-ins. I think the little pitch and phrasing mistakes that occur are essential to a good recording. It's endearing, as if someone were just talking to you. I mean, who would you rather listen to- Celine Dion or Mick Jagger? Celine Dion is a technical master, but I can't stand a single note of her s**t. Mick can't sing for spit but I hang on every note coming out of the guy's mouth.

I think there is a fine line between a less than perfect technical performance, which has heart and continuity throughout, versus a take with real bad pitch fuk ups.

I'm usually in the later category.

And I'd argue that Mick is actually a very good technical singer.

 

[Jack Russell]

There is, or course, the classic scenario of a recording engineer's (producer's?) nightmare:

Recording a vocalist who is so egotistical that they refuse to accept that they might be off pitch or do a bad take.

In that case, my feeling is always this:

IF IF IF (and it is a big IF) you can convince the singer politely and diplomatically to keep at it until the performance (whether it is punched in or totally retracked) is ON pitch, the results will always be much better.

You can have the same style of vocal (even EMO), but the pitch really does matter.

 

[rayc]

I sing so poorly that I just don't.
With other voices I try for a full take but if they become weary I'll section it.