Vai or Satriani

[MrBoogie]

Hmmm....

Interesting that I picked up a bad rep point for saying that Satch and Vai have technical prowess.

Anonymous quote:

"My ass has more technical prowess"

Post a clip! LOL!


sl

LOL!! Somehow, I've just picked up 9 negative reps. Just noticed it is zero!! They left me a message, too "King of Shred! King of Shred!.....etc" What a dumbass. Didn't even know someone could do that.

 

[Light]

I'd like to see you at the "show" cuttin' heads with Jack Butler!!!

What does that have to do with music?


Not much if you ask me.


Sorry, but music is not a competition.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[dawg2k5]

I'd like to see you at the "show" cuttin' heads with Jack Butler!!!

Good one!!!

 

[ibanezrocks]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they have No feeling in their playing, but not as much as a band with a singer. It's all about how we listen, and the fact is that singing adds more feeling to the song than even the best possible playing of any instrument. Imagine any band that would be considered to have a lot of emotion in their songs without the singer, and then tell me if its still better than these virtuoso guitarists.

Who do I like better? Satriani, because I find Vai to be too wierd and yet at the same time repetitive.

Who do I think is better technically? Vai, because he seems to be faster than Satriani, but it's almost too close to call.

 

[mixmkr]

Sorry, but music is not a competition.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

dang...and I was gonna try out for American Idol

Yeah...that Charlie Parker...what a wanker too. That "Giant Steps" solo.... what was he thinkin'??? no feelin' at all....

Light... I hold high regards for your posts in these forums. However, after reading your replies [in defense] on "the Edge" thread, I am confused how a fellow musician such as yourself could dismiss another musician and their hard-learned abilities. I personally don't get the "feel" out of a bunch of JS Bach and stuff like that for example, but ya know it's there. I fail to see how musicians such as Satriani and Vai, at the level that they are at and have reached, that the musical emotion of "feel" has escaped their playing. As much as many dismiss whammy masturbation, I can thrive on it and definately hear some major "feel" in its' use from Vai.....

Additionally, don't dismiss the technical aspects of their playing in additon to finger prowness. The ability to create musical compositions [even on the fly ..aka improv] is something MANY musicians will never hear in their lifetime. Take Mozart as an example....I'll NEVER hear what he was thinking, even after studying and LOOKING at the sheet music. Some of it is just waaaaay to complex to comprehend. Consider that a musician such as Vai might have such an ability in a [much] lesser degree [than Mozart].

 

[ROblows]

Yeah...that Charlie Parker...what a wanker too. That "Giant Steps" solo.... what was he thinkin'??? no feelin' at all....

That makes no sense for so many reasons.

 

[Light]

dang...and I was gonna try out for American Idol

Yeah...that Charlie Parker...what a wanker too. That "Giant Steps" solo.... what was he thinkin'??? no feelin' at all....

Parker didn't really play all those notes, they were just a way to get from one note to the next. You can take away about 90% of the notes, and you are left with a melody which is almost impossible to ignore. One of my warm up songs is "Ornithology," though I can't play it all that well.

I never much liked the studio solo on Giant Steps. He does great, until he gets to those four bars with the weird chord progression, and then he just gets really mechanical for those measures before it gets back to the ii-V7-I's. It is, at any rate, one of Coltrane’s least soulful songs. Lots of chops, lots of showing off, but again, since when has music been about any of that. It's a much better song when played as a ballad. Truly beautiful, when it's slow.

As for Vai and Satch, I've listened to them both, a lot, when I was in high school. I used to love it, now it just sounds like a typewriter. As such things go, Vai has more soul (not by much) on a few of his own things, but he doesn't come close to someone like Tom Waits, who can barely play. To be honest, though, it is likely that they COULD play stuff that I would like more, but their audiences don't want to hear it.

I can trace my distaste for those kinds of players back to a very specific event, though. My second year in Berklee, me and my roommate went to see Mike Stern play. We got there late, and only saw about 3-4 songs. The first thing we heard them play was a ballad. It got to Mike Stern's solo and he played something amazingly beautiful. There was no real difficulty to it, and though I could probably not have come up with it (certainly I could not have improvised it), even with my advanced tendonitis, I, physically, could still play it today (if I could remember it, of course). It was one of the best things I have EVER heard Mike Stern play, lacking in his usual weddly-weddly-weddly-WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH shit. It was one of the best solos I have ever heard a jazz player play live. When it was over, I went wild, as one should after seeing one of the greatest jazz solos one is going to hear in one's life. I was over the top insane with applause.

I was the only one in the room. There was some polite applause, but nothing much, from anyone else. I was stunned at the near complete silence from the rest of the audience.

But then came the worst part. The bass solo (there's a joke in there somewhere). It was one of the worst cases of totally inappropriate crap technical show off pieces of shit solos I have ever heard. He was fucking SLAPING on a ballad. It was, in a word, bad. When it was over, I was sitting there stunned that this idiot bass player would be touring with the same guy who had just played one of the most beautiful things I have ever hear (and with Vinnie Colaiuta on drums, not less). I was shocked, horrified, and deeply disappointed. Needless to say, he did not even get any polite applause from me. But the thing that really turned me off to the whole thing, the thing that truly depressed me to no end, is that the REST of the audience went insane. They listened to perhaps the worst solo ever played by a bass player, the most inappropriate POS thing I have ever heard, and they loved it.

For me, ever since then, any time I hear a technique over soul player, I am just board and depressed. I don't think that technique necessarily means some one sucks. The truth is, Will Lee can play the back side off of any other bass player out there. But you will never hear him do it, and for that I respect him a lot. All too often though, guys like Stern, Satch, and Vai let their audience's desire for fireworks dictate what they play, and I just can't deal with that, myself.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[famous beagle]

Parker didn't really play all those notes, they were just a way to get from one note to the next. You can take away about 90% of the notes, and you are left with a melody which is almost impossible to ignore. One of my warm up songs is "Ornithology," though I can't play it all that well.

I never much liked the studio solo on Giant Steps. He does great, until he gets to those four bars with the weird chord progression, and then he just gets really mechanical for those measures before it gets back to the ii-V7-I's. It is, at any rate, one of Coltrane’s least soulful songs. Lots of chops, lots of showing off, but again, since when has music been about any of that. It's a much better song when played as a ballad. Truly beautiful, when it's slow.

As for Vai and Satch, I've listened to them both, a lot, when I was in high school. I used to love it, now it just sounds like a typewriter. As such things go, Vai has more soul (not by much) on a few of his own things, but he doesn't come close to someone like Tom Waits, who can barely play. To be honest, though, it is likely that they COULD play stuff that I would like more, but their audiences don't want to hear it.

I can trace my distaste for those kinds of players back to a very specific event, though. My second year in Berklee, me and my roommate went to see Mike Stern play. We got there late, and only saw about 3-4 songs. The first thing we heard them play was a ballad. It got to Mike Stern's solo and he played something amazingly beautiful. There was no real difficulty to it, and though I could probably not have come up with it (certainly I could not have improvised it), even with my advanced tendonitis, I, physically, could still play it today (if I could remember it, of course). It was one of the best things I have EVER heard Mike Stern play, lacking in his usual weddly-weddly-weddly-WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH shit. It was one of the best solos I have ever heard a jazz player play live. When it was over, I went wild, as one should after seeing one of the greatest jazz solos one is going to hear in one's life. I was over the top insane with applause.

I was the only one in the room. There was some polite applause, but nothing much, from anyone else. I was stunned at the near complete silence from the rest of the audience.

But then came the worst part. The bass solo (there's a joke in there somewhere). It was one of the worst cases of totally inappropriate crap technical show off pieces of shit solos I have ever heard. He was fucking SLAPING on a ballad. It was, in a word, bad. When it was over, I was sitting there stunned that this idiot bass player would be touring with the same guy who had just played one of the most beautiful things I have ever hear (and with Vinnie Colaiuta on drums, not less). I was shocked, horrified, and deeply disappointed. Needless to say, he did not even get any polite applause from me. But the thing that really turned me off to the whole thing, the thing that truly depressed me to no end, is that the REST of the audience went insane. They listened to perhaps the worst solo ever played by a bass player, the most inappropriate POS thing I have ever heard, and they loved it.

For me, ever since then, any time I hear a technique over soul player, I am just board and depressed. I don't think that technique necessarily means some one sucks. The truth is, Will Lee can play the back side off of any other bass player out there. But you will never hear him do it, and for that I respect him a lot. All too often though, guys like Stern, Satch, and Vai let their audience's desire for fireworks dictate what they play, and I just can't deal with that, myself.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Your views might have a little more weight if you could name a few people that DO play fast or chopsy stuff that does have feel.

Otherwise, you're just saying that anyone playing fast is lacking soul.

And that's pretty much the same thing as saying anyone playing slow is playing with soul. And that's obviously not true.

Technique is simply a means of expressing yourself on the instrument. You don't have to make this more complicated than it really is. There are all kinds of emotions in music. Some songs are complimented by slow and graceful playing, in which playing really technical stuff (as in your bass solo example) sounds out of place and silly. There are other times, however, when the music suggests a fire and an intesity, and fast playing is perfectly suited for those times.

Many times, both of these emotions can exist in the same song. To give a Steve Vai example, I think "For the Love of God" is a great example of this. The solo in that tune has some brilliant melodic playing as well as some burning too. And, in my opinion, it's an amazing solo where nothing feels out of place. It builds in intensity and climaxes beautifully.

There are obviously many examples of people playing fast for fast's sake:

Paul Gilbert, Michael Angelo (The guy from Nitro! That's some funny shit.), etc.

Lots of players have those times (even Vai and Satriani). But to make blanket statements like they have "no feel" ... well ... I just don't think there's much solid basis for that.

It's certainly much cooler nowadays (since we're out of the eighties and the era of the guitar solo) to like Neil Young's guitar playing or Kurt Cobain's, or Tom Waits ... whatever. That's comparing apples and oranges. Do you honestly think that if Steve Vai were to guest solo on a Neil Young or Tom Waits song that he would shred? I seriously doubt it.

Neil Young sounds great on his songs sometimes, as does Tom Waits. But I'm never going to be someone that equates sloppiness or slow playing with feel and fast playing with lack of soul. Music is music. As you said, it's not a competition. It's not a notes-per-second competition, and it's not a "feeling" competition either. If you don't feel something, then you don't feel it. That doesn't mean that others don't.

I can't stand Metallica. I think it's silly--grown men acting like that. But some people really connect with their music, and it really does something for them. To each his own.

 

[Light]

Your views might have a little more weight if you could name a few people that DO play fast or chopsy stuff that does have feel.

My favorite would have to be Pat Martino (better before the massive brain aneurism, but still amazing these days), at least in the Jazz world. And John McLaughlin is pretty fucking amazing. For rock it is, hands down, Eddie. I mean, come on. And then there is Vernon Reed, who is perhaps the best well known example of chops used well.

Come to think of it, Mike Stern, as I already pointed out, at times, is very soulful. Of course, he also does all that weddly shit (repeat the exact same 3-6 not phrase over and over for a whole chorus, and end on the down beat of the next chorus with a big bend, and you too can sound like Mike Stern).

What, you think I didn't know what I was talking about?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Technique is simply a means of expressing yourself on the instrument.

Sure, it should be. That is not, unfortunatly, the case much if not most of the time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[famous beagle]

Sure, it should be. That is not, unfortunatly, the case much if not most of the time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Ok .. I don't know of any worse example you could use to support your point than Eddie. Talk about flash for flash's sake. In fact, he damn near invented it! His version of tapping is probably 95% flash. Every once in a while he does some nice melodic things with tapping harmonics. But give me a break. If you're going to tell me that "Eruption" is about ANYTHING other than COMPLETE flash, then you've got to be kidding me.

 

[famous beagle]

My favorite would have to be Pat Martino (better before the massive brain aneurism, but still amazing these days), at least in the Jazz world. And John McLaughlin is pretty fucking amazing. For rock it is, hands down, Eddie. I mean, come on. And then there is Vernon Reed, who is perhaps the best well known example of chops used well.

Come to think of it, Mike Stern, as I already pointed out, at times, is very soulful. Of course, he also does all that weddly shit (repeat the exact same 3-6 not phrase over and over for a whole chorus, and end on the down beat of the next chorus with a big bend, and you too can sound like Mike Stern).

What, you think I didn't know what I was talking about?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

And again .. with the Vernon Reid. Why is he soulful? Because he plays atonal notes? He comes off as sloppy, soul-less wanking to me. I guess if atonal is your thing, then he's the man.

 

[famous beagle]

Sure, it should be. That is not, unfortunatly, the case much if not most of the time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

With people like you, I would love to see you put your money where your mouth is. I'd like to hear you let your guitar do your talking.

 

[metalhead28]

This reminds me of the kind of people who look at modern art, perhaps a canvas with a few random brush strokes, and say that it speaks of more genius than the renaissance masters.....like I said....pretentious crap. Simplicity does not equal beauty any more so than complexity does. Just as one person's perception of feel and emotion cannot dictate another's....So in short, anyone making blanket statements about something completely and totally subjective is simply being an elitist prick. (And probably the same prick is the one giving me bad rep for being a Vai fan) You guys can argue in circles about what the intricacies are of what you're really saying so as to seem more justified or more intelligent, but you cannot pretend that you are not still just being an elitist prick.

So there.

 

[peopleperson]

Yeah...that Charlie Parker...what a wanker too. That "Giant Steps" solo.... what was he thinkin'??? no feelin' at all....

QUOTE]

Giant Steps was Coltrane, not Parker.

 

[ROblows]

Giant Steps was Coltrane, not Parker.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

In fact, Giant Steps was released 4 years after Parker died.

 

[hawk]

The problem with this kind of question is it's highly subjective. Maybe if the OP defined what "technically better," means it would be easier to answer. Otherwise it's just personal preference as they're obviously both very talented players. As to their styles being soulless, again it's just one person's opinion against another's so such blanket statements are pretty silly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[dawg2k5]

My favorite would have to be Pat Martino (better before the massive brain aneurism, but still amazing these days), at least in the Jazz world. And John McLaughlin is pretty fucking amazing. For rock it is, hands down, Eddie. I mean, come on. And then there is Vernon Reed, who is perhaps the best well known example of chops used well.

Come to think of it, Mike Stern, as I already pointed out, at times, is very soulful. Of course, he also does all that weddly shit (repeat the exact same 3-6 not phrase over and over for a whole chorus, and end on the down beat of the next chorus with a big bend, and you too can sound like Mike Stern).

What, you think I didn't know what I was talking about?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Vernon Reid????.....you need to get out more.

 

[ROblows]

The problem with this kind of question is it's highly subjective. Maybe if the OP defined what "technically better," means it would be easier to answer. Otherwise it's just personal preference as they're obviously both very talented players. As to their styles being soulless, again it's just one person's opinion against another's so such blanket statements are pretty silly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I guess "technically better" might mean that one can physically play things that the other can't. Without hearing the two go back and forther playing the exact same licks, it's hard to make such a call. It's a pretty silly question anyway, unless you look on music as an act of physical prowess.

As to who has more "soul", I don't know. Who's better? Mozart or Beethoven? The Stones or the Beatles? The Clash or the Sex Pistols? Oasis or Blur? They're not answerable questions, though people seem to enjoy discussing them nonetheless.

 

[ibanezrocks]

Light I have to disagree with you completely on this one. While I'm not a huge Vai fan, I still feel he's capable of writing some good songs, but Eddie? he didnt even seem interested in playing guitar if just for the sake of playing guitar and showing off, he seemed to just play guitar to get chicks, and nothing beyond that.

However I have figured out that there is a limit to which nothing can be musical to me anymore, and the moment I realized that was when I heard Michael Angelo, the shredding thing was completely ruined for me. He can play so fast that personally it doesnt even sound like random notes, it even sounds out of tune its too fast.