Upgrade from 002R?

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trenttati

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I'm going on a studio purge in order to simplify my setup, regain some cash and say good bye to Pro Tools (at home). The Digi 002R has been my interface and I am currently putting it up for sale (locally). My intentions are to replace it with something that has better converters and to get better preamps. My budget will be maxed out at $2,000, but I would prefer to sit closer to $1,000. My primary recording computer will be a Mac Powerbook 1.5 G4 with 1.25 GB of RAM (but this will be upgraded in under 6 months), but I also have a really beefy PC I may use for mixing. Let's just ignore the software issue for now.

I am recording mostly acoustic instruments and little to no distorted (or amplified for that matter) guitar. I have an Octane and a DMP3 (so the new pres need to provide some distinction/choice from these). I record 12 to 16 channels at once and then do overdubs often in stereo. I've been using the digi 002R pres a lot.

My eye has been wandering back to the MOTU traveler and the RME Fireface 800. Portability would be nice (one bag with laptop and interface, one bag with mics and cables, and a bundle of stands). If I go with the traveler, portability is improved (by bus power) as well as I'm left with cash to get a nice pre or two. The Fireface offers (marginally?) better conversion and pres and a beefy simultaneous track count.

Is there another option in this price range that would do better such as separate interface/converter/pres? I know what the really good stuff costs and I don't need to go there. I just want to step up from what I've got as much as possible in the price range. I've been searching around the net and will continue to on my own, but this community's opinions hold great value for me.

Thanks Much,
Trent

p.s. samples of my recordings on the 002R can be heard at boceanstudios.com/listen.htm
 
Are you looking at upgrading your interface (digi002r) and pres or just pres? Cause at your budget you will have a hard time upgrading both.
 
Juggernaut said:
Are you looking at upgrading your interface (digi002r) and pres or just pres? Cause at your budget you will have a hard time upgrading both.
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especially if you're wanting to do that many tracks simultaneously.
 
I'm wondering why you think the 002R convertors need upgrading. They aren't great, but pretty much what you'd expect from an all in one interface. Besides, 10 of the 18 available inputs are digital, so you can upgrade the converters on those without ditching the 002R, plus if you clock the 002R with a higher end unit it will greatly improve the onboard converters too, since the weak point is clock jitter. Hell, you could just get a dedicated clock and clock the octane to it, then sync the 00R/Protools to the ADAT lightpipe in and you'd have 16 converters on a very solid clock. And in general, mics and to a lesser degree preamps have vastly more impact on your sound than converters, which typically should be the LAST thing you upgrade, once you've maxed out everything else. My 2c
 
I agree with reshp1, what you are talking about doing is a side-grade, not an upgrade. Basically a waste of money in my opinion.

I keep thinking about coming up with a scientific formula that would more accurately express what a true upgrade costs, and also a good definition of an upgrade. So let me try now, how's this:

Definition: An 'upgrade' is an improvement in equipment that you can hear in a blindfold test between the old gear and the new gear.

Formula: The cost of the old gear times 4 if it is under $500, and the cost of the old gear times 2 if it is above $500. (or something like that)

Example: if you have a two channel preamp that cost you $750, you'd need to spend $1,500 to purchase a two channel preamp that you could readily identify as being better in a blindfold test.

So going from an 002R to a MOTU Traveler or RME Fireface is strictly a sidegrade as far as sound, in my opinion. If these other interfaces have *features* you need that aren't supplied by PT and the 002R, then that is a bit different story. But as far as sound, I don't think you should expect much if any improvement at all.

If you are being influenced by the nearly constant bashing Digi gets on message boards like these, don't be. I have a Digi 002R and I find it to be a useful tool. I also own a couple MOTU interfaces that I use as well. They have different feature sets, which is why I have both.

What you may want to do with your $2,000 is buy a couple channels of really great AD/DA converters to use along with your 002R. That *will* give you an improvement in sound that you could hear. I recently purchased a Universal Audio 2192 converter, which sounds great and also functions as my studio's master clock.

Another option for you would be to get something like the Apogee Rosetta 800 and connect it to the 002R via the ADAT I/O. This will also provide an improvement that you could hear, even though it is a bit above your price range.

Otherwise, I really don't see the point in doing the kind of side-grade you are suggesting, at least as far as the interface. You might want to buy a couple channels of really nice preamps instead. You would use those on whatever your most important tracks are. Like you'd put them on the acoustic guitar tracks. That would also provide an improvement you could hear, unlike trading interfaces.

There are any number of two channel interfaces in the $1,500-2,000 range that would be excellent. A few that come to mind are the Grace 201, John Hardy M1, Neve 5012, Millenia HV-3B. There is quite a selection though.

Hope this helps.
 
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Thanks everybody for the helpful responses. I guess I am side-grading with my plan in terms of sound quality. I'm not leaving Pro Tools because of anybody else's opinions. I'm leaving because I don't like having to have a big hardware dongle to run the software (no working on the road) and the interface, while very functional, is uninspiring to the point of making me no longer want to work in it. Oh, and in very short time I'm sure my 002R will be incompatible with future versions of Pro Tools which will only be compatible with future versions of operating systems (ala 001).

I've gotten over G.A.S. (gear acquisition syndrome) and want to have a minimal system that sounds as good or better than what I've been doing. If the traveler or the fireface actually sound better than the Digi 002R (with and without built in pres) to any degree, then it is worthwhile for me to do the trade because they both present functionality aside from sound quality that are useful to me. Maybe I'm passing over some other interface that I should look at closer...

If they present a downgrade in sound quality, then I will stick with the Digi 002R and invest in mics and/or pres.

Thanks again for all your advice and opinions!
 
i agree with the other guys

if you already have a sound card (the 002), then just buy things to add on to it (pres and a better converter). less of a hassle and you'll be able to concentrate your money solely on the things that will make the 002 better sounding.

as far as the upgrading worries you mentioned....no one ever said you HAVE to upgrade. There are a ton of people that are using the 001 with Pro Tools 6.4. There are a ton of people who are still using the old Mix systems with Pro Tools. It works, right? The only reason you might want to upgrade is if Pro Tools comes out with a version that contains "Vocal-Perfector" that takes any crappy vocalists and makes them sound perfect everytime. Which I doubt will ever happen.
Pro Tools will always be able to edit sound. Plus you can use the 002 with many other programs as well, so you don't need to limit yourself to just the one program. Just go buy another program (which is what you were planning on doing anyways it appears).

Spend the $1K - $2K on converters and pres. Much better idea than spending it on an all in one unit, IMO. :)
 
what is so "uninspiring" about simply plugging in a firewire cable and a dongle?
 
foreverain4 said:
what is so "uninspiring" about simply plugging in a firewire cable and a dongle?
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I think what he was getting at was he can't go anywhere and do any work without lugging the 002r around with him, which yeah would kinda suck. Although I think doing much mixing outside of my control room would kinda suck too, but thats just me.
 
oh, i get it. the 002 IS the dongle. i thought he was talking about an ilok. in that case, yes. just get a 4U rack case, that might make it a bit easier.. or an mbox..
 
Thanks again for great opinions and advice.

Yeah, the 002R is the dongle. While I would never master anything I mix on headphones, I often want to do experimental tweaking to my mixes while away from the studio such as trying different amp sims, compression settings, reverbs and general levels.

By "uninspiring" I refer to the software interface of pro tools. It's like a sterile soulless lab for proficient audio production. The music I'm recording just doesn't feel right in pro tools. This is a really shallow complaint for a powerful (yet horribly crippled by 32 track limit) program, but it makes a difference in how I enjoy working on my recording projects.

I'm currently in the process of selling most of my studio (SF Bay locals can check out my gear sale). I want as little gear as possible for several reasons outside of audio production (life stuff). I figure if I'm purging, might as well purge the bulky 002R that is loosing value so quickly and replace it with something with more features, such as portability, bus-powered or DAW-less mixing board. My guess is that the traveler and fireface will loose monetary value nearly as quickly though...

As far as the computer/software upgrading...I'm a computer geek first and rarely hold onto a machine for more than a year and love to be just behind the bleeding edge while watching that sharp tip cut deeper. Im not going to lug around a separate audio machine when I already use two to three personal computers for the work I make money with.

"Vocal-Perfecter?" Isn't that the plug-in by UsuxSoft that convinces all self-proclaimed vocalists to take lessons and practice in the shed for years before coming back out? (it works by preventing effects being applied to vocal tracks, using the first take with no over-dubs and boosting the over-all volume of just the vocal track)
 
More specification:

I've been working as a free-lance and part-time employee doing web design and tech consulting. I recently made it possible to work from pretty much anywhere and want to include recording in with this luxury. My primary recording projects are for John Craigie who tours half the year and lives over 200 miles away the rest. I may tour occasionally with him in the coming years and want to have a system that can travel well too.

My ideal:
- laptop, pres and interface in one bag or case (with peripherals)
- mics and cables in one bag
- stands and clips in a tied up bundle or bag
- drumset in cases.
- van with instant-burgler-vaporizing alarm
 
Did you know that you can use MOTU's Digital Performer software with your Digi 002R? DP fully supports the 002R, and you can work on DP remotely without having to have the 002R connected. So if it is the ProTools software that is bothering you, all you really need to do is switch over to DP. No change in hardware is necessary, just the software.

I believe Logic also supports Digi hardware. But I know from experience that DP works very well with the 002R, as I use DP as my main sequencer and I also have the 002R and have checked out using them together. I love DP, it's one of the very best applications for the Mac of any type in my opinion. I've used DP for ages for all sorts of differing musical projects and have been very happy with it.
 
SonicAlbert, it's great to have you onboard this thread! Yes, I've recently started to lean towards DP basically because so many people have given it high praises. I do know that I can use the 002R with other software. I am willing to give up access to Pro Tools if I can sell the unit in order to get something that provides better functionality for me and as good or better sound. The hassle of doing this is very little for me.

So nobody here thinks there is a comparable interface that sounds better by any amount than the 002R (in the up to $2,000 range)?
 
trenttati said:
"Vocal-Perfecter?" Isn't that the plug-in by UsuxSoft that convinces all self-proclaimed vocalists to take lessons and practice in the shed for years before coming back out? (it works by preventing effects being applied to vocal tracks, using the first take with no over-dubs and boosting the over-all volume of just the vocal track)
Click to expand...

hahaha, i was just being sarcastic. I have no clue if there actually was something called that in the market.
:p

For an all in one interface? I guess it all depends on how picky you want to be. "Better" is such an opinionated word...and not many people here do hardware tests on every interface to test it's converters and pres. To get the best of the best, you'll want to look at companies that make ONLY pres and ones that make ONLY converters. And just mix and match them.
 
You can get that improvement by adding outboard converters, but I think any audio interface unit the same general price range will be *approximately* the same quality. Meaning, as I stated before, that you probably wouldn't be able to tell the interfaces apart in a blind listening test.

I think the MOTU Traveller looks like a great unit though. I haven't used it, but feature-wise it seems like a well thought out design. You might even be able to fit it in the gig bag you are planning.

But really the easiest and least expensive way to get what you want would be to simply buy DP and use that with your 002R.
 
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