U87AI hmmm?

[CoolCat]

I finally grabbed a U87AI to finally hear for myself and end a small mystery that's been around for years.
Thought to add some fodder of the HR mic topic of this "standard".

Got one from Guitar Center, used, with 45 day return.."excellent".$2k..
I've done the Klaus reading and more. Deep dived into the fakes and authenticating these 87AI. In GC I opened the box, took off the barrel and the PCB circuit boards were easy to check out.
U87AI I got came in a box, but no shock mount. Grabbed a great deal from Amazon all fit perfect, works really good. $30.

Next I took the capsule out to verify it wasn't a fake too, which was a bit of a job.
All the key components correct, legit circuit # 6 which is a good one,etc...a lot of good info on the net.
The Capsule checked out 2022, KM870 serial number, very stock. Pictures taken.
As I did all this work it occurred how bad the FAKES became a reason for all this paranoia work.
*little note is to study the capsule holder for untouched"blue wax seal", and with a magnifying glass there is a N stamped in it. Well it was good , I took a picture then proceeded.

Then the fun began in comparing to other mics laying around.
The U87AI is a hotter mic, sensitivity high but so is the WA47 and Shure KSM 44., so ok, I have a decent blanketed/pillows "large vocal booth" room.
Compared it through a nice ISA430 preamp and here were some interesting notes.
1. The HPF was not to my liking, it is really high freq, some say 400hz! I don't know but there was no bass at all. Maybe this is good for orchestras or something but Im doing close up vocal.
Reading on the internet a person can change out the resistor, desolder and pop in another to move the HPF point.
I chose to turn it OFF and use the ISA430 filter and removed my worst room noise to a normal 80ohm and all was well.
2. Seems the pad isn't good for the sound, but I didn't use it and not an issue.

Recorded some brief stuff and compared to KSM32, Chandler Limited TG-L LDC, Antelope Audio LDC, MXL V67G LDC, WA47 LDC....no SM7b today it was in use.
Next repeated with the Antelope Audio interface preamp, instead of ISA430 , same mics.

As a review it was fun to finally have one here, the "standard", on the other hand it was just a mic with the "fame" thing buzz but in sound I was a bit let down because it wasn't special.
It was what it is. Its excellent shape, 2022, circuit #6, in perfect shape, the box case correct and the capsule confirmed, <$2000, someone else probably didn't need to keep it and its a bit of cash to some people for a hobby/HR. Im going to mess around with it for awhile and listen to the tracks more but I don't think Ill keep it.

For some reason it kind of reminds me of my daughter when she went through a phase of liking Gucci and expensive purses, well made, famous, popular,expensive but not really needed, and if it gets dinged or damaged $$$$$ drops off. It also seemed like a new car, whoever bought it pays $3700, used in 4yrs it dropped to $2k....ouch. I doubt it will depreciate much more.

serial number shows 176,xxx there's a lot of these mics out there!
1967 to 2026 and still going.

 

[RRuskin]

I had a pair of U87's on long-term loan some years back. I know I'm in the minority on this but I didn't care for them at all. No matter what the source, I always had something else at had that sounded better.

 

[CoolCat]

Did you find the mics growing on you over time?
I don't know what I was expecting but its an interesting week messing about.

My first impressions weren't mind blowing but it is a professional vibe piece of gear, well known, classic size of U67/87 and the patented head basket. Seems like a lot of mid-s. but just not a "wow", instead its just "normal". Kind of the same thing when I tried a lot of Preamps, normal. There's some minimal differences between mics and the WA47 seems to stand out better imo. But the other LDC's seem ok too. IF anything the 87 has a lot of clear upper mid FREQS. If a person uses the HPF theres no bottom end! lol

Rob had a good video on the U87 too.



Im not running a studio where the "emblems" matter to customers. Its just a mic I always thought about trying. Probably copied more than any other mic.

 

[RRuskin]

I never liked nor found a use a for them. The only Neumanns I really warmed up to were the U-67, km-84, & U-56.

 

[CoolCat]

yeah a U67 seems to be another sound and very well liked. Never tried that one. Its very expensive though.

If money was no option I could take a U87ai for the mic locker, It just seems like a lot for something
that's fairly a mid-focused mic, very clean, clear mic. Seems Im treating this one as a Used-Rental and will return it.
Or find something laying around unused to sell and bring its price down a bit. If it was priced like a 414 or $1,000 -ish, then easier to say YES.

Seems Rob's review was similar. He mentions the cost and worry of damaging it. I can relate to that thought too...even though I do treat all my mics pretty well, this one is too expensive to toss about in a haphazard environment. Abbey Road, tosses piles of them in buckets banging around denting per that TikTok pic , they literally had a bucket of them for a large session or something....no wooden boxes were used, just laying on top of each other.

 

[RRuskin]

I never store my mics in their boxes. The inside foam will break down over time and contaminate the capsule. To avoid this, my mics are baggied up and placed in drawers. Any units left on stands are also covered with plastic bags.

 

[rob aylestone]

The 87, and the RE20 live in their original boxes just in case I ever need to sell them - but all my normal 'go to' mics live in plastic peli style cases. I don't worry about the foam - BUT - I hqve one flightcase that the foam had turned into powder, so I totally get the contamination thing - but just one crunchy foam box out of a lot means I don't worry too much.

 

[RRuskin]

The 87, and the RE20 live in their original boxes just in case I ever need to sell them - but all my normal 'go to' mics live in plastic peli style cases. I don't worry about the foam - BUT - I hqve one flightcase that the foam had turned into powder, so I totally get the contamination thing - but just one crunchy foam box out of a lot means I don't worry too much.

I've been super cautious ever since a friend had his prize km86 destroyed by the boxed foam it was stored in.

 

[CoolCat]

I noticed some pictures Neumann has with new mics in plastic bags shipped, and they didn't have the little "pouch' no rice/dehumidifier pouch....
It didn't look like the plastic bag was sealed either..just covered and twisted at the bottom and put in the wood case, .but anyway, Plastic bags a cheap and good investment.
good idea.

The thing of this Neumann U87ai, I think...the most copied mic today probably, and there's always that curiosity if the cloner's were at the same level.
Mix Online used U87 all the time to compare mics to.
While the 47 some holy Grail and the 67 more what people wanted in a Neumann it seems. The 87 FET been around since 1967, same physical size, same capsule, same headbasket as the 67 tube, is interesting and a great example of how much the circuit changes sound. Tube to FET.
Seems all the cloners are replicating the original lower biased capsule 87 design as its often more preferred and its "vintage" no longer made, so most buyers wont have a $4500+ mic. Im not buying one to find out, podcasts and reviews will have to do.

Seems the applications are interesting, overheads or a piano or sax or percussion....for a closet studio, songwriting idea hobby gear-head, cardiod is 99% the time, more a VO box room.....the other room a more home studio, drums , basses vocals and accidents of banging and denting , so the SM57 and SM7b on the floor when busy is worry free...
does one need a U87ai for punk rock screaming? I think not.

 

[CoolCat]

just a thought.... so U47 tube died off but the decision to go U47 FET was a flop in replacing the tube U47,
then I was thinking..the same thing happened with the U67 tube, . isn't the U87fet ..really a FET version of the U67 tube? its the same body, same headbasket, same capsule!! which is supposedly 80% of the sound and they replaced the U67 tube with a FET version.
I wonder why didn't they release it as the U67 FET as they did the U47 Fet. ?
I imagine a fictional scenario, Neumann marketing somehow saying "we will use the same K67 capsule, keep the same 67 body and 67 headbasket exact the same as the U67, and swap the tube circuit with a FET circuit!!! and call it the U67 FET!!!....no, no...lets call it the U87!!"
meaningless babble but hmm? why not the U67 FET name? why U87?

Reviews of the Reviewers-
Watching the Curtis Judd- review WA87 Jr SE, cardiod only for $199 he liked this Warm better. His review of the U87AI was worse than mine, the peaky-mids and high end spikes might be good for some or they plaster EQ on it , but then what is that saying really when you have to EQ a mic? not that there's anything wrong with that.

Andrew Chapman Creative review wasn't as bad on the U87AI and his "poll" blind test the U87AI did come in 1st, but the Dachman 87SE at $399 came in next to it. (the Dachman like the WARM are based on the 8mv/pa U87i earlier version, much less sensitive (less capsule polarization voltage), than the U87AI. He bought the Dachman 87SE.

Microphone Assasin also bought the Dachman 87SE.

The Time Preservation podcaster also liked the Dachman 87SE and Roswell 87...

I wonder if the Dachman the new fad mic or is it a great sounding $400 mic? in that entry price for "good stuff".
Warm Audio has money and time to copy classics, a DIY done for you company...copying the U87 wouldn't be hard in comparison for them, for someone who does all the other gear they do. A Fet microphone copied a million times it seems, so WARM AUDIO team also chose to "copy" the U87i (48vbias 8mv/pa)...not the U87AI(modern louder 60vbias 28mv/pa circuit). why?

Cash Review-
I got this U87AI excellent used for $1999..$1 below $2k but..not $4000. .not $3750.
2022 someone bought it new, then sold it and took a bathe, 50% loss, $2000 loss. Maybe in 10 more years they will cost $8000? seems to be where inflation's going.

I fully checked it out and its legit, with box, capsule too was checked out and in very good shape, more dust than spittle on this one. I got a aftermarket Amazon nice shockmount,SUNTOK that fit perfectly for $39.88 , where the Neumann shock is $450? come on?... if Neuman /Sennhesier was $89 I might respect the OEM but at $450 for a shockmount? Ill go bootleg.

maybe some guitar tracks this weekend, or next... I still have 30days left I think? to return it...if not the 0% debt kicks in for 6 months.Then its time to pay the man.

I have two WA47 tubes I just grabbed too to compare Stock to Tube-Swaps, $599, tax & shipping included, comes with shockmount, spare rubbers, wooden box and airline case.
Both sounded really really good out of the box stock. The tube swapping and spendings been ok. So I never planned on keeping both. But definitely keeping one.

 

[CoolCat]

Playback-
U87AI was plugged into a ISA430 and a Antelope Audio Interface.
just dry, **I don't care for the U87AI HPF at all ,mentioned above makes it sound thin.
Reaper - and some Beyer880pro Semi-open cans with a GraceDesign902 using SPDIF 44k to 96k.

Anyway, the difference in preamps was pretty large imo, surprisingly. Difference noticed and surprised.

More U87 ish- are KSM32, (which has a very very nice dual Hpf) and the ChandlerLimiterTGL two modes, A = Modern and a Antelope Audio LDC all sounded more like the U87AI LDC, more Modern is the term I guess. Really wish I had a WA87 or Dachman or UTTwin to compare too but don't at the moment.

Not so U87ish- WA47tube, MXL V67G and the ChandlerLimited in "B"mode= like Ribbon, were all less ,modern , more vintage smoother, darker roasted not as" Modern or MidFreq clear and bright", whatever the term is.

To Buy or Not?
That common question with expensive stuff. Like Sylvia Massey mentions on the U47tube video, you can have 1 original or a room full of other mics for the same price.
Ill admit its very cool trying one of these U87AI out in the house finally after years of wondering, to hear it in person and record some samples with it.
U87IA definitely gained some Positive points on Playback, its clear, it really makes my voice easier to understand, with the mids, It handles Ssss's well too.
Even used at $1999...is a lot imo, Im just a hobbyist for fun, gearhead so, its a lot of cash for minimal use.

funny the serial number is 176,000 aka 2022, that's a lot of U87's!! geeez. I wonder who has 00001?

 

[TalismanRich]

Something I think that is funny is that in discussions about buying Neumann mics is that they "hold their value". People act as if after buying one, it will appreciate in value. That might be true if you hold it for 50 years. But every mic isn't a $20,000 U47. As you saw, someone took a bath on their U87ai.

For that $1750 loss (probably much more since GC got a markup), you could have bought a WA87, a UT Twin87, and a Dachman 87SE. While they might not have exactly have replicated the U87 in every minute detail, they are clearly in the neighborhood. Plus you have four options (the Twin87 has 2 modes). If you threw them all in the trash at the end of the day, you would be no worse off than selling off a new U87!

If I were running a commercial studio and having Neumann mics meant the difference between getting Bruno Mars or Keisha into the studio or not, then certainly there's value. Plus you've probably already sunk $500K or a million into your system, so a few thou on a mic is a drop in the bucket. But thinking that every home recorder needs to put out $4000 to get a mic is a bit crazy.

 

[Papanate]

But thinking that every home recorder needs to put out $4000 to get a mic is a bit crazy.

That’s because most Home Recorders total budget is probably less than $4K - and most people could probably learn more with a MXL V67 than a $4K mic - mostly because they don’t have the rest of gear to help get the most out of the $4K Mic - After so many years I’m not sold on Expensive Gear - If like me you got the Mics inexpensively - then yes you should use them - but if you are paying top dollar and are not a Trust Fund Baby - you hurting your learning curve IMO.

 

[CoolCat]

well, this U87AI here was used and $1999...then tax...there are plenty of them USED and per Reverb tracking some people sell them for less than $2k if you haggle.(what does that say?) So the thing about being a $4000 mic isn't really the USED price, which are the mics I deal with. Still $2k....that's a lot for something in a HR room, for many.

Bummer the time has flown and Ive hardly done anything with it. Return Date is near....

So in one way I compare 1qty $2k mic vs "a handful of mics equaling about the same" $2k.

Its a fine mic, its not bad at all imo, I did not hear any harsh or whatever , nothing negative to say, and especially on the few files and minutes I was free to do anything, its very nice and clear on playback. I was impressed. My GAS was all about its got the "standard" LDC mic title", soooo many articles have mentioned over decades, so its fun to try it finally.

All the mics are decent I have, $100 to $130, to this and that, Shure KSM's and others...a SM57 is able to sound great. LDC are all over the place.
So the U87AI didn't make me think they all suck. Actually Im sure many of the 87clones probably sound really close,but they copy the Vinatge 87, and the 87A, its a FET mic, the Capsule is the thing, I suppose. There 200,000 and more of these out there per the serial number which says something too.

 

[TalismanRich]

I know how GAS can just sit there waiting. AKG is discontinuing their "P" line of mics (P120, 220, 170, 420) and introducing the new "C100" line. The P420 is a mic that I've come close to buying a few times. I've got a pair of the P170 SDC mics and like them.

Last night I saw that AKG had a half dozen new P420s left for $139, with the case and mount on Amazon. One of them went into the cart and should be here Tues or Wed. I'll check it out vs my NT1, V67G, 47jr, MK300 and old SP B3. We'll see. I know that is one mic that is often modded with a cap change that is supposed to make it closer to a U87. There was a test posted elsewhere that someone did before and after the mod. It definitely rolled the top end off. I don't know if it was more natural, but I'm handy with a soldering iron, and piggybacking a capacitor isn't a tough thing to do.

If nothing else it's a new toy to play with, and cheap enough... It was less than I paid to take my kids out for my son's birthday dinner!

 

[CoolCat]

that P420 cap was in DIY recently, but has some long history probably from DIY gearheads... and I admit I could easily hear a change and that sample alone made me realize "ok some component really can change a mic sound" .....for better, in this case most seem to say, but different for sure. again "more like an 87" is some measuring stick standard.

Electronics on the U87 original has lower voltage to its capsule, this changes the tension of response or loosen's it, and the new one 1986 on or something, has a much higher voltage bringing it to the 67 capsule spec/design 60v. so 8mv/pa vs 28mv/pa sensitivity, is a real thing, a quantifiable change and tones. Bias can make the capsule tighter/loose, brighter, darker...there's been a bunch of electronic changes if a person wants to go on that tunnel of info.on the 87. so which one is which?

Id think there's many users with years of using 87's and to a pro studio they are probably like a common SM57 or SM7b. , just a mic, a standard "ok" mic. a tool.
To HR its a bigger deal, like buying a US Fender finally...but used a US Fender is still at times $800. or new $1800. millions sold, so supply will always be there.

I have logged only 7hrs or so...my opinion is of a HR low usage, comparison to $150 <$500 mics. mainly attempt at singing or acoustic. in a blanket room.
Buying on 0%, and used $2k not $4k, the depreciation is not a worry. If I needed I could sell it $1700 easy and cash out...or even $1500 fast sale and feel the $500 was worth a few months "rental" fee , which is wha

t Ill probably do. Better than last Vegas trips where there's nothing left after.. imo.

Like Rob mentioned the 87 sits in its box. I already bought a expensive US early serial number SM7 and it sits in its box. ..the new Sm7b is used and left out. why? to let it rot away in a box? maybe someday get it out and find the foams deteriorated and ruined the capsule? wow?
Will the U87 sits in a box here too? or leave it out to be used, dinged and scratched and who cares...? I don't worry about using the SM57 and enjoy it being used.
The LDC and WA47 tube($599) are handled with care but Im not worried if its scratched or used a lot, by others or self.

To use or sit in a box? hmmm
My initial few hours and playback especially the U87 has a very pleasing clarity. The Chandler Limited L, in Modern setting sounds very similar too. KSM32 is less bright, its sensitivity is lower, closer to the original U87, so less bright might be more appealing , more neutral? Is anyone else making a U87AI CLONE, the higher sensitivity, brighter one?
MXL probably has a couple in their line somewhere that's transformer, FET, 67 style capsule biased at 60v...?

P420...might be worth a test drive here... brand new $139, pop in a capacitor.


here's a really well done review of that MOD

 

[TalismanRich]

Buying on 0%, and used $2k not $4k, the depreciation is not a worry. If I needed I could sell it $1700 easy and cash out...or even $1500 fast sale and feel the $500 was worth a few months "rental" fee , which is what Ill probably do. Better than last Vegas trips where there's nothing left after.. imo.

I got my statement from Caesars. I was down $78 after my trip in May. (The poker machine was good to me!) That wouldn't buy a V67G these days.

 

[CoolCat]

this P420 is interesting, in a 87ai way. It has the same 28mv/pa sensitivity, and maybe in a more "87ai" design than the more common 87i everyone copies with the lower sensitivity 8mv/pa.
Most are $220 though, but a few $139.... nice case and shockmount! which is nice for the studio.

 

[CoolCat]

I grabbed a P420 , the interest was to compare to this U87AI.
1) it was for starters a really nice mic in build and the shock mount felt well built, good case, metal with sturdy screen.
2) plugged it into the ISA430, and the volume/output of the 420mic is so close to the U87ai....both 28 mv/pa, it was near identical in volume. I didn't touch a knob and it was right on the money for sound and volume.
Read its a Takstar capsule biased around 60v too like U87AI, I've read,. the circuit is supposedly based on the U87AI.
3) then I played back the few quick lines and compared and I couldn't hear a difference. Listening on open backs on the gracedesign headphone amp. Headphones BD880pro and Takstar671 Open Back set on playback.

I really cant say anything bad about it and glad the 420 was mentioned by you.
Im going to get a couple clips and post when I get time, Ill do some more tracks tonight but if its this close, for me, Ill take the U87AI back for sure as its 10x's the price, $200 vs $2k and this is so close. imo. The only other mic that was pretty close is the Chandler Limited L, in Modern mode, in my small locker.
But this 420 is really close to the U87ai "sound/volume" and price is crazy cheap. GC is $229, 45 day return. I saw a couple 20's 4on Reverb, but with tax and return the close store was close enough.

add: the cap mod is to supposedly roll off the top end. I don't really hear the top-end, as a problem at all on my vocal. Maybe on other items like cymbals?
If anything I see a low freq difference when using a waveform check, and to EQ that a 1db boost around 250-350 maybe, or its proximity effect, head basket? I could "drop in" P420 on a U87AI Track, and not hear a difference and wouldn't have to adjust the volume or EQ.

Checking Recording Hacks this P420 has the 87ai circuit copied. U87AI thru to U67 tube use NFB. Klaus explains NFB if ones interested to search it.
the P420 is based on the Neumann U87 Ai. The circuit is a single-stage JFET with negative feedback; the NFB provides corrective high-frequency rolloff for the capsule. The mic’s output is balanced by a small transformer.

This chart also shows why I don't like the U87AI HPF and use my ISA430-adjustable HPF, its a weird roll off.It starts off really high and makes the mic lose "body" or something.

Update..the end: I returned the U87AI. It was a fun time, only lost some shipping cash etc. The need vs price was a bit much for $2k. The P420 changed things too but only being able to compare to U87ai. GC was great with the 45 day Return. No hassle. (if anyone's interested it is back for sale at $1999 and I confirmed its real and mint condition).

 

[TalismanRich]

Well, my P420 arrived a few days late. I guess the whining New Yorkers had a little bit of snow last week, so they couldn't get to work to ship it! C'mon, whats the problem? It was just a few feet of snow.

I think I'll give it a run through tomorrow. I want to send our bass player a rough cut for him to work out his part.