Tuning pegs

darrin_h2000 said:
Well you have a right to your opinion...but most companies like schaller...grover...grotoh...have gone to adding the option of locking tuners based on the fact that if you bend alot or try to use a stock fender floating bridge (Which should just be locked down anyway) that its going to mess with the windings around the peg, and it will loosen the string and try to change the position...and that is simple HS physics...what you want is to have very few windings and the strings locked into the peg to eliminate the string from slipping in the peg.

Id normally just take your word for it...but either I have to believe you and all those tuner peg manufacturers are wrong...or put my faith in all those manufacturers who have locking designs.
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Whether all or any of that is true or not has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that locking tuners, whatever they do, will not replace the function of a locking nut. There is nothing any kind of tuner can do to counteract string sliding friction in the nut slot.

As to whether the tuning manufacturers are wrong... well, it's not whether they are right or wrong, it's whether or not they have a gimmick they can sell.
 
My '91 Strat Plus has pin-locking tuners and a LSR rolling nut, and that thing doesn't hold tune as well as my cheap Xaviere strat copy that's fitted with standard tuners and a plain 'ol graphite nut.

So of my guitar harem, that's one guitar out of 10 that has locking tuners, and its' the one that is pickiest about needing to be tuned. So based on my pathetically small sample size and never having spoken to anyone that anyone has heard on a CD, I conclude that locking tuners are completely unnecessary. :)
 
acidrock said:
You just have to go slow and take what the drill gives you,use a sharp bit.

I'm trying to avoid that by getting the right part in the first place.I do repair work and while I do make parts "fit",I'll always take the right part first.:D
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Just noticed this post. No don't do it freehand with a drill bit, crazydoc is spot on. It will pull the bit into the hole and chew the fuck out of it. If you have a pillar drill setup maybe. Otherwise a reamer or someone who has the right tools is the way to go. Just sayin...;)
 
Zaphod B said:
My '91 Strat Plus has pin-locking tuners and a LSR rolling nut, and that thing doesn't hold tune as well as my cheap Xaviere strat copy that's fitted with standard tuners and a plain 'ol graphite nut.

So of my guitar harem, that's one guitar out of 10 that has locking tuners, and its' the one that is pickiest about needing to be tuned. So based on my pathetically small sample size and never having spoken to anyone that anyone has heard on a CD, I conclude that locking tuners are completely unnecessary. :)
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Your logic is faultless! :laughings:

A couple observations from my experience, which may or may not be valid as well-

*referring to a string "slipping" at the tuner may be a slight misnomer, at least with steel strings, because once you've got a couple windings on the tuning peg and the string at tension, it won't go anywhere. It WILL continue to go out of tune, however, as the string stretches in. That's not really "slipping," though. Once your strings are broken in, though, assuming you didn't absolutely botch the stringing at the tuner (I generally string up keeping a bit of tension on the string, to ensure a tight wine), it's not going anywhere.
*Technically, a locking nut is only optional with a Floyd - by default, Carvin ships with just locking tuners, and charges you like a $20 upcharge if you want the nut. Most people pay for it for a reason - the real problem with a Floyd is it allows absolutely huge changes in string tension. Dive, and the strings will fall out of a non-locking nut and dangle loosely off the neck. When you return to tension usually they fall back in place correctly, but there's always that chance a string won't fall correctly into the groove, or will get tangled on something else. Additionally, taking all of the tension off the strings like that does run the risk of the string wound around the tuning peg loosening and shifting. A locking tuning peg will help here, but you still have strings flopping around wildly, which isn't really ideal. Some guys who don't dive much - Chris Broderick comes to mind - go without nuts, but for me part of the point of a locking nut is just to hold the strings in place on the fretboard, when you suddenly remove all tension from them.
 
muttley600 said:
Just noticed this post. No don't do it freehand with a drill bit, crazydoc is spot on. It will pull the bit into the hole and chew the fuck out of it. If you have a pillar drill setup maybe. Otherwise a reamer or someone who has the right tools is the way to go. Just sayin...;)
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No,I would not do it freehand.:rolleyes:

It seemed to me they were referring to when a drill bites and pulls itself into something,or it splinters.I use powertools everyday and it's not uncommon to see people pushing on saws,or drills,using wrong bits or blades.

But once again,I would consider drilling out holes foolish.That would be unnecessarily complicated.

But then again these forums are filled with people who love to tweak,mod,remix or take things to the extreme....
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
*Technically, a locking nut is only optional with a Floyd - by default, Carvin ships with just locking tuners, and charges you like a $20 upcharge if you want the nut. Most people pay for it for a reason - the real problem with a Floyd is it allows absolutely huge changes in string tension. Dive, and the strings will fall out of a non-locking nut and dangle loosely off the neck. When you return to tension usually they fall back in place correctly, but there's always that chance a string won't fall correctly into the groove, or will get tangled on something else. Additionally, taking all of the tension off the strings like that does run the risk of the string wound around the tuning peg loosening and shifting. A locking tuning peg will help here, but you still have strings flopping around wildly, which isn't really ideal. Some guys who don't dive much - Chris Broderick comes to mind - go without nuts, but for me part of the point of a locking nut is just to hold the strings in place on the fretboard, when you suddenly remove all tension from them.
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Cool!
Even though I have a shitload of electrics,I mostly play acoustic and when I do play electric I don't play that wacky dive bomb shit:D so that was a good read that made sense.
 
acidrock said:
No,I would not do it freehand.:rolleyes:

It seemed to me they were referring to when a drill bites and pulls itself into something,or it splinters.I use powertools everyday and it's not uncommon to see people pushing on saws,or drills,using wrong bits or blades.

But once again,I would consider drilling out holes foolish.That would be unnecessarily complicated.

But then again these forums are filled with people who love to tweak,mod,remix or take things to the extreme....
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Good man. I just wanted to chuck it out there for others that may not be familiar with their diy tools and how they can bite back at you. I didn't doubt you for a moment.;)

For any one interested who thinks they can maybe get away with it. Don't...
 
All you need is 2-3 windings on each tuner post.
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2 to 3? I've got it down to no more than 1 to 1 1/2 windings per post. Maybe this has more to do with the fact that I like one piece bolt-on necks, which would experience more fluctuation as opposed to a laminate neck, especially if it's a neck-thru guitar.
 
NCdan said:
2 to 3? I've got it down to no more than 1 to 1 1/2 windings per post. Maybe this has more to do with the fact that I like one piece bolt-on necks, which would experience more fluctuation as opposed to a laminate neck, especially if it's a neck-thru guitar.
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One and a half turns is what I aim for. I'd say your good.;)
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
*Technically, a locking nut is only optional with a Floyd - by default, Carvin ships with just locking tuners, and charges you like a $20 upcharge if you want the nut. Most people pay for it for a reason - the real problem with a Floyd is it allows absolutely huge changes in string tension. Dive, and the strings will fall out of a non-locking nut and dangle loosely off the neck. When you return to tension usually they fall back in place correctly, but there's always that chance a string won't fall correctly into the groove, or will get tangled on something else. Additionally, taking all of the tension off the strings like that does run the risk of the string wound around the tuning peg loosening and shifting. A locking tuning peg will help here, but you still have strings flopping around wildly, which isn't really ideal. Some guys who don't dive much - Chris Broderick comes to mind - go without nuts, but for me part of the point of a locking nut is just to hold the strings in place on the fretboard, when you suddenly remove all tension from them.
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Bolded for truth. If you're a floyd user, you WANT to take things to the extreme (big dives and abuse!). This requires locking at the nut, and needs the ball ends clipped off and locked at the bridge as per the Original FR (if you get a "single locker" like the old FR2 or some licenced ones, the winds down on the ball ends loosen/retighten/shift with each big dive and it'll never stay in tune - it just won't). Not having a locking nut is just no fun with a floyd. It's not just to keep the strings down: it's primarily to take the windings out of the equation.

More reasonable trem use, it doesn't matter so much, obviously, as proven by thousands of "standard" trem users from the last 60 years who stay in tune just fine. And geez, there's always the option of tuning between songs hey?

Personally, I hate locking machine heads, I think they are pointless and a bit ugly. And those ones that cut the strings for you? :rolleyes: How lazy are some people?! Sheesh.
 
Interesting. So is there any merit in using locking tuners with a floyd rose? Mutt you seem pretty clear about what they can't do ... but what about what the can do? Or are they a complete gimmick?
 
TelePaul said:
Interesting. So is there any merit in using locking tuners with a floyd rose? Mutt you seem pretty clear about what they can't do ... but what about what the can do? Or are they a complete gimmick?
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On a proper OFR setup, with locking nut, they are pointless. If you for some reason didn't want a locking nut and got locking tuners instead, they *might* help, but it would be simply because of the lack of windings around the posts (you can have 1/2 a wind and that's fine with the lockers) - NOT because of the strings (or posts hehe) slipping. I think that's a really important point - if you (for some reason) had, say, 3 or more winds around a locking tuner, the benefit would be entirely lost, because those extraneous winds will (under trem use) become slack and retighten (and never really retighten the same way twice) and you'll be out of tune in no time. If you had 1/2 a wind or less, you might be okay. This is with 80's style trem abuse (it's less of a problem with less drastic use, and NOT a problem for non-trem guitars). So, on a LP standard for instance, they would be of no benefit (...even though they come standard on some non trem guitars: they are probably easier to use for newbies who can't string a guitar properly hehe). Hope that makes sense.
 
muttley600 said:
Most of the slight changes in pitch are due to fluctuations in the instruments timbers due to moisture content and other materials due to heat.
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Exactly.

If strings slipped at the peg...after many tunings, they would eventually slip out of the peg hole, wouldn't they?
But no, they don't slip...and you try a simple experiment and trim your string almost right at the hole, and after weeks of playing and tuning the strings will NOT have moved even a hair...
...because strings don't slip at the peg.
 
TelePaul said:
Interesting. So is there any merit in using locking tuners with a floyd rose? Mutt you seem pretty clear about what they can't do ... but what about what the can do? Or are they a complete gimmick?
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They will do exactly what a standard tuner will do. In short hold the string rigidly to the post so it won't slip. Some people like them for the ease of string change. Thats about the only benefit I can see but with the number of string changes I do it doesn't bother me any. Use them if you want there is nothing wrong with them. I was only taking issue with clains that they will help you stay "in tune better", they wont.
 
My guitars NEVER go out of tune........Oh wait.....those arent mine.....They must be the guy's on the CD. My bad. Carry on.



BTW..If you play old Strats like I do, and have the standard slotted tuners (Kluson) a wrap and a half will get you into the next song whilst still singing the last chorus of the last song....and in tune for a bit....

I dont like the locking tuners at all. They're too heavy. And they keep the guitar in tune way too well......I GOTTA have that Fender Fight every night.
 
cavedog101 said:
BTW..If you play old Strats like I do, and have the standard slotted tuners (Kluson) a wrap and a half will get you into the next song whilst still singing the last chorus of the last song....and in tune for a bit....
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I hate those damn slotted tuners,two of my guitars have them.What is the idea behind them?:confused:
 
acidrock said:
Cool!
Even though I have a shitload of electrics,I mostly play acoustic and when I do play electric I don't play that wacky dive bomb shit:D so that was a good read that made sense.
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Aw, you're missing out. :D

I mean, I'll be perfectly honest, the biggest issue with a non-locking nut is that the string has the tendency to bind at the nut causing tuning issues (you know how when you dive with a non-locking trem and it doesn't go back to tune, if you do a bend or two on the string suddenly it pops back into tuning? That's not because of the tuning machines ;)), but if you're going to get absolutely extreme with a trem, a locking nut provides stability in ways over and above merely stopping the strings from moving in the nut slots. :p
 
muttley600 said:
They will do exactly what a standard tuner will do. In short hold the string rigidly to the post so it won't slip. Some people like them for the ease of string change. Thats about the only benefit I can see but with the number of string changes I do it doesn't bother me any. Use them if you want there is nothing wrong with them. I was only taking issue with clains that they will help you stay "in tune better", they wont.
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I know I'm a little out of step here, but with locking tuners, I can use less than a half turn of string to tune, while any conventional tuner is 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 or so turns. I do find that with locking tuners and a pivot-style bridge that can drop the strings slack, I have better luck, all things being equal. I've assumed that even the minimal wrapping is enough to loosen, and then require resetting before it stabilizes.
 
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