Trying to make something listenable

[mark1971a]

In the 80's I was closer to a broadcast quality. I am looking for direction on how to get a good commercial sound for lite rock with a DAW. I am not biased either way digi or anni.

Right now I record with a couple UA 880 pre and 1176 6176 combo for stereo mic'ing A / B . The interface is Alesis 2x2 usb. My mics are Neumann KM84/U87 boutique copy LD/SD, 2x Fine DIY .8 micron ribbon custom microphones on luienblum transformers.

Some guitars are done on a usb Line6 ToneportUA2 and the VST/pluggins sound nice. I like things pretty clean and flat. shelving for sure , but flat.

The DAW has every type of effect but I have a rack unit or 2.. too. alesis reverb, and such.

Monitors are alesis the mid level 5 series.

This should be enough to make a good home recording, correct? It is only a few select pieces of hardware I used in the real studios during the 80's. I might not even need the input chain. I don't know how good the DAW/DSP algorithms are , it might be worth the real hardware an a mic'd source.

If I post a 30 second clip would you identify some problems?

If you could recommend an audio consultant in the Chicago area that is good too.
I have been stuck and It seems like they have the gate way blocked. The Gateway to good sound. Let me in.

 

[mjbphotos]

What DAW are you using? You've got some nice gear, why are you sending your mic-ed signals through a cheap interface like the Alesis (you don't give the actual model, is it the Ios)?
Go ahead and post some soundcloud links.

 

[mark1971a]

Reaper. On a Laptop Core i5 Dell win7 sound/video upgrade

I stay with a brand if it has a nice sound and following. The pre's and limiter are expensive. The rest is common and cheaper , not bad.

My drums are Alesis too. I like to play the pattern out on them and go in through Easy Drummer to loop.

The mic's are boutique copies but have the same capsules, etc. much cheaper.

I thought the 2x2 USB were all pretty similar in function after a certain price point you get more complexity. It is the Alesis express 2x2. The L6 toneport works too as an interface , but has it's own Line 6 ASio. What do you like?

The gateway problem I have might be ASio related.

I try for a clean signal , It is hard to tell the mic source from the vst once in the DAW. That is why I almost want a consultant to look and say , this is where you have it wrong. Here is a 30 sec clip of Johnny BG. Sorry about the poor mix quality blairing intro notes, my crap voice I spared you from, and compresssed layers. Do you want something isolated?

 

[mark1971a]

I have been playing guitar , singing, bass, synth , perc for decades. I am familiar with a lot of the stuff. Please share. Cause I am stuck.

The problem is that I cannot tell the vst from the mic'd amp , or direct source once in the DAW.

Also how many times is it being compressed? Doesn't rendering compress it, and mp3 compress further, and media player compress, how many times is too many? Because the over compression is no longer refining the character in a positive way.

Once in the DAW it sounds really dead and dry. Not to be mean, but is that how DAW plug in compressors sound compared to real?

 

[mark1971a]

You know that new sound your looking for , well listen to this....Marty McFly , time.

Nothing?

When recording I shoot for 0 db. No clip ever. I rarely use more than 4:1 compression. Also my Hi shelves are kind a up there. Lows cuts are 50-150 hz or whatever depending.

 

[PDP]

It doesn't sound like the gear. The overall tone and frequency response sounds ok to me, there are some things right off, that just sound like your mixing is off. The drums sound very thin in that clip, as do the guitars a bit.

My guess is you are still mixing from the days of analog. (I did the exact same thing). You don't need to be boosting highs etc to make up for tape loss. Digital is a much true-er sound that takes some getting used to, when your old school.

Other than that, you may hate digital IDK, it really can be quite different.

Also peak level when recording digital is -18db. Recording digital at 0 can cause the mush.

 

[mark1971a]

Those pre amps and limiters are simplest of rack devices. The interface is probably the bottleneck. I agree it sounds squished to death. That would be both the UX2 and alesis express that have serious bottle necks in the pre amps. They both sound like this, but the toneport has a gearbox with plugin vsts that sound OK. I have to switch between 3 different asio's for each product in reaper too.

The 0 unity line in reaper is just above -18 db . The 0 , might not have been meant in db calibration . That could be an issue then.

Would -18 db peak seem quieter than normal compensated line level at the standard 1khz .775 volts?

You work with 1/4 " too. I miss it, but not going back. There has got to be a way to get that voltage in the sound.

 

[PDP]

Those pre amps and limiters are simplest of rack devices. The interface is probably the bottleneck. I agree it sounds squished to death. That would be both the UX2 and alesis express that have serious bottle necks in the pre amps. They both sound like this, but the toneport has a gearbox with plugin vsts that sound OK. I have to switch between 3 different asio's for each product in reaper too.

The 0 unity line in reaper is just above -18 db . The 0 , might not have been meant in db calibration . That could be an issue then.

Would -18 db peak seem quieter than normal compensated line level at the standard 1khz .775 volts?

You work with 1/4 " too. I miss it, but not going back. There has got to be a way to get that voltage in the sound.

IDK, I'm not an expert, everything seems like it should be ok, (however, I'm not familiar with some of your gear) it could just be the way you are using your eqs, let more warmth into the tracks, avoid hi-end clutter. Good Luck.

 

[cakewalkKaKed]

KVR: Luftikus by lkjb - Details <- (note keep gain setting)

Mid Side VST Plugins: One Stop Processing mid side

Stereo-widener audio effect plugin (AU, VST) - Voxengo Stereo Touch - Voxengo widener

Downloads variety of sound great stuff! ... preFIX (hi/lo pass)

 

[mark1971a]

The video was not any help because he already has a decent sound to start in the DAW. He doesn't explain his input chain either. If it is even needed anymore .

It seems those were his favorite plug ins. You get the same type of advice from the workshops they had at guitar center back when.

There are these archaic tools called oscilloscopes. These days you still have the meter, but what happened to the scope? The scope is the picture of the sound. When you scope the DAW signal , there is a HUGE change in the rate and smoothness of the waveform. It would be the listening equivalent of watching a movie at 12 frames per second instead of 24. I'm hoping that I only haven't figured it out yet. Not that it IS that way with USB 2x2s. So far the MIDI stuff is incredibly good, but I have to use their provided tones. Then the problem comes when its time to add the voice.

PDP 's first reply said I might not like digital recording, and that makes me pause for concern. Why would I not like the sound? Is 24 bit not the same as 15 ips ? I enjoy recording keys and prec , I can take anywhere it is portable. I liked the digital MIDI stuff since the DX-7.

Thanks for your comments. The reputation points notifications are kind of useless. I 'm not investing or banking anything into Homerecordingcom. The people who were in the discussion were more abusive than I was and nothing happened to them. If you want to offer an opinion great, I will share some ideas or experiences too. Please, try to concentrate on the information and sound and not on the attitude stuff.

 

[mjbphotos]

I'll try to listen tonight, if I've got a minute.
Oscilloscope = analog. In a DAW you are dealing wiht the digital world, you would have to convert the signal (D-t0-A) to feed the scope. Don't mix by sight anyways, use your ears (heard that hear more than once). The Alesis Express and Toneport are marginal in their preamps, but certianly can be used.
As to your 'multicompressions' question, render to WAV or AIF, then convert at high bit rate 9320) to MP3. Players don't compress, but certain upload sites (soundcloud, iTunes) do.

 

[mjbphotos]

I have to agree with PDP, it sounds thin, not much warmth in the mix. Are you EQing it that way, or is that a result of your tracking? What are you using for your guitar - Line 6 PodFarm or something else?

 

[mark1971a]

No, the whole thing is being latched into the ReaComp . I think I have to unlatch the compressor on the drums, specialy from the same group as line in. Each group needs to be separately compressed. Otherwise its gonna start pumping. Who knows somebody might think its cool, right? Yeah, I think I'm doing that wrong.

Not comfortable in the DAW. Kind of upset that my old rack gear doesn't carry over like it should. I started making my studio the tried true pre was the 660 and 1176 compressor. Spared no expense for the pre and comp. That's as far as I got. Guitar (layered) is a Stratocaster, bass is fender P bass. Stereo Microphone recordings. Amp DRRI. KM84 and U87 boutique copies. Tracks flat, hi cut and low cut shelving of coarse. It doesn't matter, after the signal goes through the toneport, it sounds like the toneport.

In the wall is a line in Stratocaster . Clean strumming, for dimensional comparison.

 

[mjbphotos]

I'm confused - are you miking a guitar amp, or DIing the electric guitar? The toneport is just an interface, you can't blame it for bad sound.

 

[mark1971a]

I'm having problems with the sound. There is a VST guitar , a line in guitar, an amp live, etc. so I can compare the sounds.

Nothing bad about a line in, guitar. It is familiar and a standard to gauge the rest. I might not know what a VST Tuber-nator sounds like, but I know what my strat sounds like, line in.

 

[miroslav]

I'm having problems with the sound. There is a VST guitar , a line in guitar, an amp live, etc. so I can compare the sounds.

Nothing bad about a line in, guitar. It is familiar and a standard to gauge the rest. I might not know what a VST Tuber-nator sounds like, but I know what my start sounds like, line in.

When you say "Line In"...are you talking DI guitar (guitar--->DI--->computer) or are you using an amp that has a Line Out...?

 

[Btyre2013]

wow you have some nice gear, there's no reason why you shouldn't be getting good sounds

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The 0 unity line in reaper is just above -18 db . The 0 , might not have been meant in db calibration . That could be an issue then.

The peak level meter tells you the level in dBFS (full scale). The 0 in the average level meter can be changed with respect to the peak level meter. Right click on the meter and change "Display offset" to 20dB. Now 0 on the average level meter equals -20dBFS. If you set your preamps properly and the other gain structure is correct you will end up recording levels right around 0 to +3dB on your average level meter, and right around -18dBFS on your peak meter.

Would -18 db peak seem quieter than normal compensated line level at the standard 1khz .775 volts?

That would depend on your converters. As far as I know most pro converters make +4dBu (1.228V) equal -18dBFS or so. Then a +22dBu peak would equal 0dBFS. So typically: 0dBVU = +4dBu = -18dBFS.

You work with 1/4 " too. I miss it, but not going back. There has got to be a way to get that voltage in the sound.

"...get that voltage in the sound."????

 

[miroslav]

"...get that voltage in the sound."????

C'mon now.....it's called electric guitar for a reason.

 

[mjbphotos]

Not sure what you are comparing. Give us each guitar by itself for a short segment of a recording.

"Line in guitar" - direct in, no FX?
"VST guitar" - direct in with VST? (what VST? PodFarm, gearbox, Amplitube ...)
"amp live" - miked up? If so, are you getting the sound you like from the amp recorded so it sounds the same?