Treble/Presence

[nuemes]

So. I record dry and my recordings always lack the treble & presence that I hear in most indie/popular recordings in a typical rock setup (2 gtr, drums, bass, vox).

I hate adding EQ and do it as little as possible because at my equipment level (read: plug-ins), EQ can quickly add harsh tones.

So what would be the fix? I've got nearly dead rooms, which doesn't help add higher frequencies, but short of changing rooms how can treble/presence be added without EQ? I would assume the mic/placement would have the most affect, and then likely preamp but I'm not ready to look into more gear at this time.

For example, how would you go about getting more presence if you were recording a drum kit using MXL 603's (Digi002 pre's) as the overheads without adding EQ? Or do most folks add EQ at mixdown to bring higher frequencies up - in which case maybe this question is more appropriate in the mixing/mastering forum? Or have I neglected something(?)

 

[Sal4001]

I always track with a little EQ. Even if it's just the standard stuff-boost at 50hz on the kick, cut 100hz on the guitars, boost 200hz on the vocals, cut 400hz on the floor tom, boost 5Khz on the bass guitar. I'll track with those settings, and often don't need anything radical at mixdown. Mic selection is critical if your room is particularly dead. Hard to fabricate the brightness at mixdown if it's not there to begin with.

 

[travelin travis]

the 603 is pretty bright as is. i could'nt see myself adding to that.

 

[nuemes]

the 603 is pretty bright as is. i could'nt see myself adding to that.

You'd think so but they're not transfering to the recordings as being particularly bright. I don't mind EQing an elec or acoustic gtr so much but the idea of adding cheap high freq EQ to overheads - ugh!

 

[nuemes]

I always track with a little EQ. Even if it's just the standard stuff-boost at 50hz on the kick, cut 100hz on the guitars, boost 200hz on the vocals, cut 400hz on the floor tom, boost 5Khz on the bass guitar. I'll track with those settings, and often don't need anything radical at mixdown.

This sounds like a good idea. I've got 8 channels of Soundcraft M8 EQ; only trick then would be the signals passing through the M8 pre's as well, which I imagine are similar in quality to the Digi002 pres.

 

[RAK]

Is it possible your monitoring setup is playing a part in this? Is it always too dark no matter what you're listening on? It could even be the cymbals themselves too.

 

[nuemes]

Is it possible your monitoring setup is playing a part in this? Is it always too dark no matter what you're listening on? It could even be the cymbals themselves too.

That's an interesting point. The treble tends to sound fine in the monitors (I'm using BX5's, KRK Rockit5's, and computer speakers as reference). The issue tends to be playing the final mix on car & home speakers - basically anything that's not my monitors.

I have two CD burners; they to not affect the treble.

A simple fix would be increasing treble at mixdown to CD, but I hesitate to do that with EQ plug-ins.

I guess my question then is: do most people add high freq EQ at mixdown, or are they getting treble without doing so?

 

[travelin travis]

That's an interesting point. The treble tends to sound fine in the monitors (I'm using BX5's, KRK Rockit5's, and computer speakers as reference). The issue tends to be playing the final mix on car & home speakers - basically anything that's not my monitors.

I have two CD burners; they to not affect the treble.

A simple fix would be increasing treble at mixdown to CD, but I hesitate to do that with EQ plug-ins.

I guess my question then is: do most people add high freq EQ at mixdown, or are they getting treble without doing so?

As far as the hi's, how is the overall mix? Have you looked at maybe cutting the hi's in other tracks to make room for the overheads? How are the low's in the mix? Maybe they're drowning out everything else?

 

[Daniel Reichman]

I guess my question then is: do most people add high freq EQ at mixdown, or are they getting treble without doing so?

You might want to look at a multiband compressor and an exciter/enhancer. The multicomp helps smooth out individual frequency bands, so, in your case, the hf's should end up more consistent. An exciter adds all sorts of aural tricks without really adding much gain in the high frequency range - though overdone they can sound harsh and tinny.

Mastering is a completely different art to tracking. As long as you're getting a workable sound to your recording medium, you don't need to touch your eqs at this stage.

 

[chessrock]

For example, how would you go about getting more presence if you were recording a drum kit (using MXL 603's Digi002 pre's as the overheads) without adding EQ?

That one is actually fairly simple, assuming you know how to change the heads on your drums, and tune them. I would recommend visiting the drum section and asking for some input on how to tune your kit to get a livelier sound out of it ... and what kind of heads to use and how tight they should be, etc.

Another idea might be to put your drums on top of a sheet of wood. Could give you some lively early reflections that way.
.

 

[recordingpro]

dude don't start trying to "add" highs. If you aren't capturing them in the first place then "adding" them sounds like crap. If it sounds good on your monitors and sucks everywhere else then your monitors simply don't translate well and you aren't hearing things right in the first place. Take the best CD you own that is close to the style your trying to record and listen to it a few hours and get yourself a reference then start trying to match your work to the CD sound. While your doing that get your drums worked on.

 

[nuemes]

How are the low's in the mix? Maybe they're drowning out everything else?

I think this may be the issue. I may need to start cutting some low-mid freqs in the acou gtr, kick, bass, and elec gtr.

A freq analyser is showing most of the audio peaking bwtn 125-400kHz. I'll give it a shot tonight.

 

[nuemes]

You might want to look at a multiband compressor and an exciter/enhancer. The multicomp helps smooth out individual frequency bands, so, in your case, the hf's should end up more consistent.

This sounds like a good idea too. I'll try this as well. Thank you.

 

[nuemes]

That one is actually fairly simple, assuming you know how to change the heads on your drums, and tune them. I would recommend visiting the drum section and asking for some input on how to tune your kit to get a livelier sound out of it ... and what kind of heads to use and how tight they should be, etc.

Another idea might be to put your drums on top of a sheet of wood. Could give you some lively early reflections that way.
.

I ask drummers to pre-tune their kits before coming in, but that's a really good idea regarding asking about tuninging from a local drum shop. I'm usually happy enough getting the kick together and keeping the snare from ringing (empty leather wallets are good for this) as most of the recordings are single day demo sessions.

The floor is a thin piece of carpet with concrete underneath; changing that to wood sounds like a good idea.

 

[chessrock]

Oh, I see. This is for other people, and not you then.

This is getting even tougher, because basically you're trying to find ways to compensate for what I'm guessing are neglected drum kits. In which case, you should just do whatever you need to do. If that means you have to EQ the crap out of someone's drum tracks, then so be it. In which case, I would recommend starting with a very wide cut between 800 hz and 250 hz ... followed by a low-cut shelf of a few db's or so starting at 1800 hz or somewhere thereabouts. Also try boosting around 2.5 to 3 khz or so for more skin attack.

Obviously every situation will be different, but I generally find this to be a good starting point for older kits with heads that haven't been changed in a while. In addition, I would also recommend putting a mic under the snare and maybe another one on the beater side of the kick. Again, mixing these tracks in can help bring out more snap from the snare, along with greater definition of beater on drum head.

For the most part, I've gotten in to the habbit of really driving home the importance of changing the drum heads and bass strings a few weeks prior to the session in order to make sure everything is broken in, yet not to the point of sounding dull. And during sound check, if things are sounding a little dull, I'll specifically alert the drummer, and ask him if there's any way to tune the kit to get some more "snap" or "pop" out of the heads. If they're good at their craft, then they should know what you mean and adjust accordingly.

In theory, it shouldn't be much different than telling a guitar player "Your tone sounds a little muffled; are there any knobs you can fiddle with or pickups you can switch to in order to get some more presence?" They don't always look at it that way, but in a perfect world, a drummer should have a similar level of control over their tone, and should be counted on for at least a few tricks up their sleeves to accomodate.

Then again, I forget that we are talking about drummers, here.

.

 

[VSpaceBoy]

For me the sparkle comes from cutting NOT from adding. Experiment with different bands and how they react to each other when you cut/add eq. I would hesitate with the multiband eq, at least at first. Could cause more problems than helps.

 

[giraffe]

I think this may be the issue. I may need to start cutting some low-mid freqs in the acou gtr, kick, bass, and elec gtr.

A freq analyser is showing most of the audio peaking bwtn 125-400kHz. I'll give it a shot tonight.

it's common to have more power devoted to the low's (125 ish) than the hi's
it's probably the low mids that are killing you (200-400) ish

 

[nuemes]

If that means you have to EQ the crap out of someone's drum tracks, then so be it. In which case, I would recommend starting with a very wide cut between 800 hz and 250 hz ... followed by a low-cut shelf of a few db's or so starting at 1800 hz or somewhere thereabouts. Also try boosting around 2.5 to 3 khz or so for more skin attack.

Thanks - this will be a good starting point. Freaks me out do wide cuts but if it improves the overall mix I can't complain.

In addition, I would also recommend putting a mic under the snare and maybe another one on the beater side of the kick. Again, mixing these tracks in can help bring out more snap from the snare, along with greater definition of beater on drum head.

I recorded the kit w/ a SM57 over the snare, C414 on the side of the snare (Fletcher mentioned doing this; works very well when getting under the kit is too tight). I love doing this because the 57 gets a typical 70's colored tone & the C414 gets a much more natural tone with a lot of snare and much more high freq.

For kick (front head off with pillow inside) I used an ATM25 inside 3 inches from the beater (though now I'm thinking the beater side might have been better?) and a V67 (ha) about a foot outside the kick with a moving blanket covering the entire kick.

I think the kick mics may be a big mix issue here with low freqs. The ATM25 doesn't have a treble spike such as in the D112 or Shure kick mic, and the V67 is basically a mud fest (but the only spare mic I had at the time).

 

[chessrock]

If the kick is giving you troulble, that's easy enough to fix. Tell the drummer to loosen the beater-side head. Alot, if necessary. There will come a point, as it is loosened, where the sound of the kick just snaps right in to focus; at that point, your ATM25 inside the shell should do excellent. Oh yea, and don't use any felt beaters. Plastic only.

.

 

[nuemes]

Update

How are the low's in the mix? Maybe they're drowning out everything else?

I edited the mix this weekend, and this turned out to be the main issue. Way too much low end on the individual tracks, mainly btwn 80-400kHz. I set high pass filters on every single track and started narrowing bandwidth elsewhere as well. Huge difference. More clear, less mud.

The high frequencies are still not exactly where I want them but it's a very large improvement. Thanks to everyone who replied for your help. I feel a little thoughtless now knowing that the anwser was so obvious, but sometimes you get so caught up in a mix that it gets away from you.

Gotta keep perspective!