Track purity

[Greg_L]

Don't mind Greg...he has a "tough love" style to his posts... ...but actually, he isn't saying "if you don't do it like this, you suck".
What he is saying is that when people blame a click for not being able to play/record...mmmm, well I have to agree with Greg and others, it's usually the person's timing that is falling short and not the click track's fault.
Point he is making is that anyone who has perfect "internal" timing shouldn't have any trouble playing with a click. After that, whether you use one or not...is a different discussion.

Yes, that.

 

[somegeezer]

Don't mind Greg...he has a "tough love" style to his posts... ...but actually, he isn't saying "if you don't do it like this, you suck".
What he is saying is that when people blame a click for not being able to play/record...mmmm, well I have to agree with Greg and others, it's usually the person's timing that is falling short and not the click track's fault.
Point he is making is that anyone who has perfect "internal" timing shouldn't have any trouble playing with a click. After that, whether you use one or not...is a different discussion.

I always think of an orchestra with a conductor...and imagine someone standing up and telling the conductor to stop keeping time because they can't follow along and that their "internal clock" is good enough.

+1
Playing with or without, as long as it's in time, who cares? ^_^

 

[grimtraveller]

+1
Playing with or without, as long as it's in time, who cares? ^_^

Agreed. But this isn't really what click evangelists like Greg and Miroslav are getting at.
What really becomes irritating in the "to click or not to click" opera is that quite often, those that don't use clicks respond as though they feel they are being gotten at, but so often, they strip the click debate from it's context, which is recording. This is a recording site and many of the people are either lone operatives or they are responsible for laying down tracks that others are going to overdub to. Given that it serves an ease of editing and time reference function, I can't see why people have such a problem with clicks. The argument that it makes music mechanical is a redundant corpse of an argument. For a start, when you enjoy hearing a song, you are not going to focus on whether there is or isn't drifting, unless it's obvious and sucks. And the music can be mechanical and devoid of life for reasons that are nothing to do with the tempo !
Furthermore, good musicians aim for tightness. No one in their right mind is going to hire or want to play long with a drummer or percussionist {or any other instrumentalist for that matter} that can't keep time. So the notion of solid timekeeping is already built into the psyche of musical humans.
A click/metronome is simply an extension of this.
Rather like the way in which a recording was an extension of a live performance. You had access to a song you liked and didn't have to wait for two years before XYZ swung your way to play their tune.
But people still thought it was unnatural !

 

[somegeezer]

Agreed. But this isn't really what click evangelists like Greg and Miroslav are getting at.
What really becomes irritating in the "to click or not to click" opera is that quite often, those that don't use clicks respond as though they feel they are being gotten at, but so often, they strip the click debate from it's context, which is recording. This is a recording site and many of the people are either lone operatives or they are responsible for laying down tracks that others are going to overdub to. Given that it serves an ease of editing and time reference function, I can't see why people have such a problem with clicks. The argument that it makes music mechanical is a redundant corpse of an argument. For a start, when you enjoy hearing a song, you are not going to focus on whether there is or isn't drifting, unless it's obvious and sucks. And the music can be mechanical and devoid of life for reasons that are nothing to do with the tempo !
Furthermore, good musicians aim for tightness. No one in their right mind is going to hire or want to play long with a drummer or percussionist {or any other instrumentalist for that matter} that can't keep time. So the notion of solid timekeeping is already built into the psyche of musical humans.
A click/metronome is simply an extension of this.
Rather like the way in which a recording was an extension of a live performance. You had access to a song you liked and didn't have to wait for two years before XYZ swung your way to play their tune.
But people still thought it was unnatural !

Agreed to this too.

 

[heatmiser]

The question was about bleed, and yes, click tracks are one of many things that can bleed, but why on earth would someone still have the click track going by the time they get to tracking vocals (where I think bleed is most likely to rear its ugly head)?

Surely all of you click fans don't leave the thing on throughout the entire process? Other than perhaps helping you lay down the first track, after that, you can play along with the track you have...no need for a click at all by that point.

I use a click when I have to for maybe the first track, but I find them pretty annoying and as soon as I have a track or two done, that thing is getting muted, or erased.

 

[Armistice]

I do not speak in musical terms, but I write songs. When I try to talk to musicians about sound, they look at me like I'm from outer space. But, when at long last they produce the sound I was talking about, it makes more sense to them.

Perhaps you could save both of you some time by learning some of the language...

 

[grimtraveller]

The question was about bleed, and yes, click tracks are one of many things that can bleed, but why on earth would someone still have the click track going by the time they get to tracking vocals (where I think bleed is most likely to rear its ugly head)?

Surely all of you click fans don't leave the thing on throughout the entire process? Other than perhaps helping you lay down the first track, after that, you can play along with the track you have...no need for a click at all by that point.

I use a click when I have to for maybe the first track, but I find them pretty annoying and as soon as I have a track or two done, that thing is getting muted, or erased.

Good point. That's how I feel. That's why I think the whole click debate is a classic of the "wires crossed" genre. Granted, some may leave the old gnome on throughout but once the drums or percussion or something steady is down, I find no need although once in a while, it's just fun to do.

 

[somegeezer]

The question was about bleed, and yes, click tracks are one of many things that can bleed, but why on earth would someone still have the click track going by the time they get to tracking vocals (where I think bleed is most likely to rear its ugly head)?

Surely all of you click fans don't leave the thing on throughout the entire process? Other than perhaps helping you lay down the first track, after that, you can play along with the track you have...no need for a click at all by that point.

I use a click when I have to for maybe the first track, but I find them pretty annoying and as soon as I have a track or two done, that thing is getting muted, or erased.

I think it really depends what order people do it in [not everyone has the same workflow]. Or even what instruments or style of music you are playing. But I agree. Once you have something down that has a steady beat, everything else can follow from it.

 

[Clam Soup]

Perhaps you could save both of you some time by learning some of the language...

This happens along the way. ... but, I might still ask the lead guitar player to "think of a woolly mammoth lumbering through the trees" because the guy who understands that is the guy I want playing along!

I've been using my click tracks and hating it, but using them... except today I ran into one of my songs that does not want to be clicked. I think it is a pattern issue - I tried the click in 4/4 and 3/4.... are there any others to try? The song is very rythmic but seems to be conflicting here.

 

[miroslav]

The question was about bleed, and yes, click tracks are one of many things that can bleed, but why on earth would someone still have the click track going by the time they get to tracking vocals (where I think bleed is most likely to rear its ugly head)?

Surely all of you click fans don't leave the thing on throughout the entire process? Other than perhaps helping you lay down the first track, after that, you can play along with the track you have...no need for a click at all by that point.

I use a click when I have to for maybe the first track, but I find them pretty annoying and as soon as I have a track or two done, that thing is getting muted, or erased.

Well...the click is not going to bleed any more than any other cue tracks, so I don't get the earlier argument someone made that the bleed was the real reason to not use a click.

AFA when to turn it off?
As I said...I run the click for just about every track, except maybe the two final tracks - Vocals and Lead instrument.
During tracking of all/any rhythm tracks, the click stays on even if the drums have already been tracked.
Why?
Because even though the drums were recorded to the click, they too may have some mild drift here-n-there, and while it might be OK to just go with the drums as they are, I would rather keep the click also going because that is the only 100% accurate reference beat, and for tracking of rhythm parts...I think it's important.
Mind you...as I also said...I tend to pan the click hard to one side and I turn it down so it's "just" there...that way it never overpowers the other tracks and becomes annoying to listen to. It's more of a subliminal reference, that I think makes a difference in the long run when doing track-by-track recording.

YMMV.....

 

[JimmyS1969]

This happens along the way. ... but, I might still ask the lead guitar player to "think of a woolly mammoth lumbering through the trees" because the guy who understands that is the guy I want playing along!

I've been using my click tracks and hating it, but using them... except today I ran into one of my songs that does not want to be clicked. I think it is a pattern issue - I tried the click in 4/4 and 3/4.... are there any others to try? The song is very rythmic but seems to be conflicting here.

I am curious what style it is you are writing and recording. And what it is you play. Sorry if it has already been stated. I have short term memory. I do know you like the songs in your head tho!

 

[miroslav]

... but, I might still ask the lead guitar player to "think of a woolly mammoth lumbering through the trees" because the guy who understands that is the guy I want playing along!

Guitar licks that embody "a woolly mammoth lumbering through the trees"......?
You got any sound clips of that?
I would like to hear what that guitar sounds like.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Well...the click is not going to bleed any more than any other cue tracks, so I don't get the earlier argument someone made that the bleed was the real reason to not use a click.

AFA when to turn it off?
As I said...I run the click for just about every track, except maybe the two final tracks - Vocals and Lead instruments.
During tracking of all/any rhythm tracks, the click stays on even if the drums have already been tracked.
Why?
Because even though the drums were recorded to the click, they to may have some mild drift here-n-there, and while it might be OK to just go with the drums as they are, I would rather keep the click also going because that is the only 100% accurate reference beat, and for tracking of rhythm parts...I think it's important.
Mind you...as I also said...I tend to pan the click hard to one side and I turn it up so it's "just" there...that way it never overpowers the other tracks and becomes annoying to listen to. It's more of a subliminal reference, that I think makes a difference in the long run when doing track-by-track recording.

YMMV.....

The magical thing about a click for me, is when drums are tight, the click just kind of goes away. I found that once I learned how not to listen to it, and subconsciously know that it is there, it just became easy. The point of rehearsing with one is to get to the point where you no longer 'try' to play with it. A wise man once told me, if you have to think about the next hit, you are already too late. It just has to be natural to make a song groove, or whatever the hell you want to call it. A click has nothing to do with being sterile or taking emotion out of a track. It only a reference point to ignore when things are actually in time.

 

[miroslav]

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

You know...when someone finally gets the whole click thing and learns to do what you are saying...it's amazing how easy and beneficial it becomes to them.

 

[heatmiser]

...it might be OK to just go with the drums as they are...

In my opinion it is better to go with just the drums, as opposed to being OK to do so. At least then you are strictly playing along with a performed part, rather than a mechanized beat. All subsequent tracks will feed off the flow of the drums and the result should be more organic and integrated than if every subsequent track is bound by the original click. That, in my opinion, helps to create more of the sound of a band playing together despite it being just you tracking yourself over and over again.

Absolutely depends on the style of music I suppose. Sounding like a band isn't always the goal of course, but if your goal is absolutely precise metronomic timing throughout all tracks, then you're probably making electronic music and using a sequencer anyway.

 

[miroslav]

In my opinion it is better to go with just the drums, as opposed to being OK to do so. At least then you are strictly playing along with a performed part, rather than a mechanized beat.

It's OK to do that...but I don't see why tracking drums to a "mechanized beat" and then avoiding the "mechanized beat" for everything else is somehow better...?
I would think it the drummer really nailed his part, he would be as tight as the mechanized beat...so not much difference, though you know that the click is always 100% accurate.

I guess I'm looking at it that once you have a reference beat (click)...and then make a copy of it (drums)...why then make a copy (guitars, etc) of the copy (drums) instead of always including the original reference beat (click)?
It just seems more accurate to do that, and isn't that the point of the click in the first place...to maintain accuracy?

 

[heatmiser]

I don't think 100% accuracy is a desirable goal when making music. Never even considered that actually. I'm not saying it's necessarily undesirable or anything. Just irrelevant.

I think if someone has good timing, they tend to make tight, good sounding music with or without a click, conversely if they keep poor time, they will make bad sounding music with or without a click. I've heard plenty of examples of both.

It is merely a guide to get you started (when necessary) and I like to ditch it as soon afterward as possible for reasons I already outlined above.

 

[Clam Soup]

I am curious what style it is you are writing and recording. And what it is you play. Sorry if it has already been stated. I have short term memory. I do know you like the songs in your head tho!

It's just American music - kind of that crossover blues/rock/folk stuff. Accoustic foundation ... I'm really not a musician and my guitar becomes something of a drum with strings - I just smack it around. ... a lot of open chords....

I have friends who are also not musicians and they have played through a lot of tunes with me, but it always turns out crappy because we are not musicians. But the songs are good and have some integrity in the melody, lyrics, and synchopation.

 

[Clam Soup]

Guitar licks that embody "a woolly mammoth lumbering through the trees"......?
You got any sound clips of that?
I would like to hear what that guitar sounds like.

I'm pretty embarrassed by the whole project because, as mentioned to Jimmy - I'm not a musician, and my friends were just sort of noodling along, but, the song in question I think is still on MySpace.... haven't been there in forever. I'm not sure if it is under Clam Soup or Soggy Mountain. The song that I asked for that sound was called Holy Sight. It's a tonal thing to me. If I ask someone to play like the sun, I don't anticipate daisies, but expect something heavy, raw ,and mean. It's nice to imagine the butterflies in the field, but the surface of the sun is a hostile place.... does that make sense to anyone but me?

 

[miroslav]

I don't think 100% accuracy is a desirable goal when making music. Never even considered that actually. I'm not saying it's necessarily undesirable or anything. Just irrelevant.

Well...we can debate that point, I'm sure.
I don't see how it's irrelevant, timing is absolutely relevant, and when a song is set to 4/4 at 110 BPM, there is a good deal of accuracy associated with that.
Now...if you're saying that you personally don't mind the song drifting away from that as long as it's not real bad/noticeable, that's a whole different consideration, but until you know *exactly* ( (aka "accuracy") where the beat is, you really can't even begin to "work it" for the sake of "groove" or "pocket" or whatever, with out simply guesstimating.

I have a really good sense of timing...I'm not just saying that, but I certainly can stay real tight without a click (maybe it comes from years of using a metronome and click...?), but even so, if I lay down a dozen individual tracks using each previous track as my guide for the next, there is always a certain amount of *random* (key point) drift that has noting to do with the push/pull groove/pocket thing so many like to talk about as a counterpoint to using clicks. It's just irregular drift... albeit, in very minute quantities that most people would never notice just listening to the song, but from a recording/production perspective, I can't just assume the role of the "listener"...I have to assume the role of the "engineer/producer", and then the goal and intent takes on a different perspective for me. I am going to strive for whatever perfection I can pull off to the highest level I am capable of....and little bits of random drift that I know can be avoided/improved by using a solid reference beat is one of those things I feel will make a difference in the long run, especially when you multiple the minute drift errors times a couple of dozen tracks.
I mean...as "engineers/producers" we might spend a crazy amount of time/effort laboring over some "tone" or something similar...so I find it counterproductive to then ignore accuracy in timing.

But of course....YMMV...and you go with what works for you.