Be careful with resource-heavy plugins while tracking

[paperhatrecords]

I have a standard preset vocal chain I like to use and right at the top is Soothe (the De-Shadow preset cleans up the bottom of my voice nicely). I like to track with what has been done before relatively mixed and both Soothe and Spiff were used multiple times throughout the mix, on drums, bass, etc. I like to be able to mix down as soon as I am done tracking, with minor tweaks.

But when I started using the preset vocal chain while tracking, I started noticing audible timing issues. There was latency and I was singing in ways to compensate for it. I thought it was just my computer being slow or laggy.

It wasn't until I spent a long time trying to fix drum and percussion not synching up even though they looked basically perfect on the grid that I figured the problem out: I had a version of Soothe on the conga/percussion/drum machine bus and more Soothe and Spiff on the drums. When I removed them, voila, no more audible latency.

Then I realized it was likely Soothe in my vocal chain and elsewhere in the mix causing the tracking timing problems.

High CPU plugins should never be used while tracking. Stick with stock if you must use them at all. Lesson learned.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Good info to share!
What DAW were you using, though? Most I'm aware of automatically compensate for this.

ProTools, for example, has ADC - Automatic Delay Compensation, where if a plugin introduces X ms of latency it applies the same latency to all other tracks to keep playback sounding correct
then anything that you record under those circumstances is automatically offset on the timeline to compensate.

Maybe you've got that option but it's disabled?

 

[Papanate]

I have a standard preset vocal chain I like to use and right at the top is Soothe (the De-Shadow preset cleans up the bottom of my voice nicely). I like to track with what has been done before relatively mixed and both Soothe and Spiff were used multiple times throughout the mix, on drums, bass, etc. I like to be able to mix down as soon as I am done tracking, with minor tweaks.

But when I started using the preset vocal chain while tracking, I started noticing audible timing issues. There was latency and I was singing in ways to compensate for it. I thought it was just my computer being slow or laggy.

It wasn't until I spent a long time trying to fix drum and percussion not synching up even though they looked basically perfect on the grid that I figured the problem out: I had a version of Soothe on the conga/percussion/drum machine bus and more Soothe and Spiff on the drums. When I removed them, voila, no more audible latency.

Then I realized it was likely Soothe in my vocal chain and elsewhere in the mix causing the tracking timing problems.

High CPU plugins should never be used while tracking. Stick with stock if you must use them at all. Lesson learned.

Or you could Freeze the tracks if your computer couldn’t handle it.

 

[TalismanRich]

The problem is when you're working in real time. If you are monitoring with a significant delay, then your timing can be off. A few ms can be easily ignored. When you start getting into 50-100ms delay, then you definitely hear it. It's a situation where hardware would definitely have an advantage. Or a system like UA uses where things run inside the interface rather than in the computer. My Tascam interface has compression and EQ built in, so it doesn't introduce any latency that I can detect.

DAWs can't compensate for real time, unless it can read the future. DAW compensation merely adjusts the alignment of recorded tracks. It can't apply an effect before you sing the note. Likewise, you can't freeze a track that hasn't been recorded yet. My solution is to not use the plugin, although I know that things like adding reverb can make a singer feel more comfortable.

I have had a few plugins that you hear the delay when you hit stop and the sound continues for a 10th of a second or so. Remove the plugin and when you hit stop, the sound stops. One guitar amp sim that I tried was terrible. My Strymon eliminates any issue.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Of course, if you have something introducing substantial delay on the real time monitoring of what you're singing or performing that's not going to work,
but with regard to the choice between manually moving things around the timeline to correct or disabling latency introducing plugins,
those shouldn't be the options.
20 years ago, sure, but any DAW worth using should have compensation for that built in.

 

[noah330]

This is why many of us use hardware and/or AAXDSP.

 

[Papanate]

This is why many of us use hardware and/or AAXDSP.

Or many of us have super powerful computers with substantial Ram - Macbook Pro M4 Max 48gb ram 2 tb SSD - I haven’t been able to overwhelm the Laptop yet.

 

[noah330]

Or many of us have super powerful computers with substantial Ram - Macbook Pro M4 Max 48gb ram 2 tb SSD - I haven’t been able to overwhelm the Laptop yet.

Out of curiosity, can you track while monitoring resource-heavy plug-ins without latency? I was under the impression that apps like Console (UA_ exist to solve this problem.

 

[Papanate]

Out of curiosity, can you track while monitoring resource-heavy plug-ins without latency? I was under the impression that apps like Console (UA_ exist to solve this problem.

Well my record is 80 tracks with plugins - the laptop didn’t even blip the tiniest bit - BTW Are you talking about A-Console the API 1604 emulation?
I’ve never used it - but it doesn’t seem resource heavy -

 

[noah330]

I'm talking about tracking and monitoring through a plugin, like for example a track with a UA preamp and maybe an 1176 and LA2A plugin and having no latency when recording.

 

[ashcat_lt]

“Heavy processing” is not the problem. If you were running out of CPU ticks, you’d hear crackles and noises from buffer underruns. That might prompt you to increase your buffer size. That could cause a noticeable delay if you have to whack it up high enough.

But unless you’ve been down that road, that’s not the problem. The problem is that you’re using plugins which need to introduce latency in order to do their thing. Soothe apparently has a Live version which is supposedly “low latency”, but even that is not necessarily zero latency. The only real option is to leave those plugins off (or bypassed) from any track you’re trying to monitor live input through.

 

[Papanate]

I'm talking about tracking and monitoring through a plugin, like for example a track with a UA preamp and maybe an 1176 and LA2A plugin and having no latency when recording.

I’m not sure I understand - what do you mean tracking & monitoring through a plugin? I put a series of plugins on a vocal track - EQ -Tube EQ - Exciter - 2 Compressors , DeEsser etc.. Then I buss to a Compressor track and a Reverb Track - I am using Logic Pro - there is no noticeable latency in my setup - I also have Drums with various Plugins, Guitars, Bass,Synths etc... with Various plugins (Like Helix Native) etc…they all run with no noticeable latency - I have my I/O buffer size set to 64 Samples -

Unless I’m mistaken this is more resource heavy than just a UA Preamp and LA2A - so maybe there is something mixed up in your system?

 

[TalismanRich]

Do you use that chain (7+ plug-ins) in the monitoring feed to the singer's headphones while the singer is laying down the track in real time?

 

[Papanate]

Do you use that chain (7+ plug-ins) in the monitoring feed to the singer's headphones while the singer is laying down the track in real time?

All the time - I did it on the my latest Dear John release - I had a ton of things going on - now on my older Intel MacBook Pro - I had to freeze tracks and use Low Latency mode all the time - not on my Silicon MacBook Pro.

 

[Supercreep]

I mean... If you know you're going to use the effect then just bounce to a new track with the plugin enabled and then the effect is baked into the cake. You can run with zero live plugins if you're patient enough.

 

[ecc83]

I do not and cannot do any of the stuff above, I am not a musician but, I want to buy a W11 tower computer because I shall need a W11 machine eventually and I don't want ANOTHER laptop (I have an embarrassment of kbds,mice, monitors and gash FSTVs!) I shall be buying a refurbished PC so as to get better bang for buck.
My problem is what CPU to go for. Simple answer I guess might be "the fastest i7 you can get" but looking at Intel's vast table of i7 speccs I doubt it is as easy as that! Do I HAVE to go i9 or is AMD a better bet (but then I am into a whole other set of code numbers!)

HDD is fairly easy, 512G min and I can slot in more for storage and backup and/or use USB externals. RAM 16G minimum as I could upgrade that...never know? The price might come down! Oh! Do I look for DDR4? DDR5? Something else?

Ultimately my son will take the machine back to France with him. He is a proper musician and pretty slick with Samplitude and Cakewalk and getting into Reaper.
I am will to got to £1000 for a speedy machine.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

I have been looking at whether to upgrade my machine. Rather than a big box, I've been looking at this one: https://www.geekompc.com/geekom-it13-mini-pc/. I could go full 32GB/1TB and be set for a long time.

I don't know that they are available in the UK. I'm sure you have similar machines available. It has everything that I need, multiple HDMI ports, USB4 ports, ethernet, and you can add a 2.5" Sata SSD in the bottom of the chassis. I like having two drives, one for OS and programs, one for all the project data, pics, etc. Then I can have an external drive for backup. They are basically a high end laptop without the screen and keyboard. The I9-13900HK in the miniPC above is at least 3 to 5 times faster than my current recording computer.

Right now I still have my 10+yr old Lenovo with a 4th Gen I5-4460, but I've upgraded the OS to Win 11 and am currently running 25H2 with no problems. Can I milk this for another 3 or 4 years?

I put off upgrading because PC prices were basically on a plateau, but the performance was continuing to rise. Now with all this AI data center crap, prices are actually rising.

Heck, that miniPC above is almost as expensive as my TI 99/4A with a peripheral expansion box was back in the early 80s!

 

[ecc83]

Thanks Rich that looks very much the business! I had read of those mini computers before but resisted because I quite like "tinkering". Probably time I stopped that! The fact that you can add an extra drive and upgrade the ram really means I don't need to mess with it. I shall go for 32G of ram anyway. That is 4 times what son and I have in our laptops now and neither of us have ever had a problem... but, future proofing.

BTW, do you or anyone else know the state of Windows 12? I hope Msoft are not intending to tell us again that we have to junk our 'old' W11 machines for it?!! I recently read that Msoft are reigning back on some of their annoyances? Things like Copilot will be able to be uninstalled and a very slight step down from the godlike "our way or no way" seems under way? It seems they are hurting a bit because many people and businesses have given W11 the middle digit and gone over to macs or even Linux.

Oh yes! They are available over here. Amazon, Google and others carry them £878 ish for the full Montey.

Dave.

 

[TalismanRich]

I've read some things about Win12, but I suspect that the majority of it is pure speculation. AI integration/Copilot, local account or MS account, neural processing unit requirement, 40 TOPS (trillions of operations per second). That's all been mentioned. Latest I have read is 2027 release. Some speculated late 2026 but that looks a bit ambitious.

Requiring an NPU will disqualify ALL Intel processors that aren't Ultra or AMD Ryzen AI or AI Pro. That's a LOT of computers, including stuff that is currently for sale.

 

[ecc83]

Oh dear! That does not sound good!

Dave.