Simple question: How many dB to record at?

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Dusty Ol' Bones

Dusty Ol' Bones

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Hello. My apologies if I use the wrong vocabulary. I've been recording singer/songwriter stuff with vocals, acoustic guitar, and occasional acoustic and electric overdubs. I read somewhere about how the inputs should be set to a certain dB level for recording. I normally record acoustic guitar (mostly fingerpicking) where the loudest peaks land somewhere between -9 to -6 dB. I aim for a similar target window with vocals, so as to leave headroom for later things. However, the finished product typically has the instruments coming in quiet and the vocals coming in loud. I outsource my mixing and the person I hired told me that whenever he tries to raise the instrument tracks, ambient and computer noise that was picked up by the mics becomes more prominent.

I posted a thread elsewhere about making my computer more quiet. What can I do to get the vocal tracks and instrument tracks to meet in a place closer to equilibrium?

Thank you.
 
First question... when you record are you using a cardioid mic and does it face the computer or away from the computer. The whole point of a cardioid mic is that there is a null point behind it, where it doesn't pick up the sound as strongly. Make sure the back of the mic is pointing at the computer, not the face. If you have an omni mic, there's nothing you can do the fix that.

If the fellow mixing the file says that bringing up the level makes the ambient noise intrusive, then the level you record at won't make any difference. Simply raising or lowering the input gain won't help. You have a differential between your voice or guitar and the background in the room and that relationship is constant. If you have -100 dB of of mic+preamp noise, but your room noise is 50dB and you sing at 90dB, then raising the level will not give you a lower noise floor. You have a 40dB difference and that's it.

SO you have two choices, sing or play louder or reduce the background noise. Otherwise you have to use some type of a noise cancellation plugin which can drop the background noise, but can also have an adverse effect on wanted sound, or use a gate to quiet sections between the music. But again, that can sometimes be problematic if not done correctly.

You might want to get a sound meter program for your phone and see what your real noise level is. Or you can buy an SPL meter from Amazon for ~$30. Then you can see if any changes your are making are really improving things.
 
First question... when you record are you using a cardioid mic and does it face the computer or away from the computer. The whole point of a cardioid mic is that there is a null point behind it, where it doesn't pick up the sound as strongly. Make sure the back of the mic is pointing at the computer, not the face. If you have an omni mic, there's nothing you can do the fix that.

If the fellow mixing the file says that bringing up the level makes the ambient noise intrusive, then the level you record at won't make any difference. Simply raising or lowering the input gain won't help. You have a differential between your voice or guitar and the background in the room and that relationship is constant. If you have -100 dB of of mic+preamp noise, but your room noise is 50dB and you sing at 90dB, then raising the level will not give you a lower noise floor. You have a 40dB difference and that's it.

SO you have two choices, sing or play louder or reduce the background noise. Otherwise you have to use some type of a noise cancellation plugin which can drop the background noise, but can also have an adverse effect on wanted sound, or use a gate to quiet sections between the music. But again, that can sometimes be problematic if not done correctly.

You might want to get a sound meter program for your phone and see what your real noise level is. Or you can buy an SPL meter from Amazon for ~$30. Then you can see if any changes your are making are really improving things.
Thank you for the reply. And thank you for the hot tip on the sound meter phone app.

With regards to both singing and playing louder, my vocals are coming in too loud and instruments too quiet. So it seems like I should play louder, because the vocals are already loud enough. Also, when I play louder, it tends to clip.

I am currently using a Rode NT1000 cardioid condenser mic for vocals. This is what I got when I googled it:

"NT1000 - Studio condenser, large diaphragm, cardioid A condenser microphone, it employs a 1-inch diaphragm with a fixed cardioid polar response, yielding 'ultra-low noise, wide dynamic range and high SPL capability'."

Shure SM81 for instrument, also line in pickup on guitar/

I don't know what high SPL capability means. I have normally been sitting with the vocal mic and instrument mics less than 4 feet from the computer. Both facing away from the machine. However, I recently reconfigured and placed a makeshift barrier between the computer and the mics, however the mics have to face ~90 degrees with the computer due to the shape of the room. I know my setup is not perfect and is far from professional but this is currently what I have to work with. Here are some photos below:

The computer and as you can see, the barrier behind me is the "isolation booth".

20250109_165011_block.webp


Here is the isolation booth. My face is already ~2 ft in front of the vocal mic. If I raise my voice, I will need to separate myself from the mic even further.
20250109_155011_block.webp
 
Get closer to the mic. Put the pop screen within an inch of the grille and your lips practically touching the screen. Adjust the gain so the signal stays well clear of clipping.

This will tend to accentuate the lows, but eq can compensate. If the mic has a high pass filter, engage it.

[Edit] Obviously I didn't read your post well enough. But the principle applies. Getting closer or playing louder will increase the difference between the signal and the noise. If you can't do that, you have to reduce the noise.
 
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Rich is correct. Adjusting the input gain level wont help with this because it's adjusting the source (voice/instrument) and background noise equally.
As he said, the solution is to adjust the ratio of source to background noise, as perceived by the microphone.

Your pictures aren't loading just now - we had a major forum update today,
but from your text
"My face is already ~2 ft in front of the vocal mic"

2 foot is fairly far. That gives you room to work with.
First thing I'd do is bring the recording input gain down and try working at 1 foot or closer.
That will make a huge difference.

The other approach is to move the computer farther away or make it quieter.
What computer do you have?
It's possible, having checked temperatures to be sure, that you could run a slower fan profile while recording.


* SPL is sound pressure level.
They're telling you the microphone shouldn't shit the bed if you put it on a snare drum or guitar amplifier. (y)
 
This is a problem my son had many years ago when he was at home. We had a desktop PC and things were fine for singing into a capacitor mic (Sontronics LDC) and recording electric guitar but the PC was too noisy when trying to capture acoustic guitar

We only really resolved the problem when I bought an HP laptop, that was extremely quiet. That is a solution, I don't know what audio interface you have friend but almost any w10 (even W7 often) laptop has enough power to record a few tracks at 44.1kHz 24 bits (as you should) Do you perhaps have a "significant other" you could poach one from for a try?

Another dead quiet solution is a hand held recorder. The Tascam Pro 40X has 2 mic plus two XLR inputs with phantom power. You can then transfer the .wav via USB for messing with on the big machine. I am also not sure if you are recording voice and guitar at the same time or singing to guitar as a backing track? As to levels, the usual advice is to aim for an average of about 20dBFS on your DAW's meters with peaks no higher than 8dBFS in my book. Levels can always be boosted as close to 0dBFS digitally later and, as has been said the Signal to Noise Ratio will stay the same.

Local ambient noise is a PITA of course. Son found he had to record guitar at 2am or later.

The suggestion of an SPL phone app is a very good one but get an app that has the "C" weighting curve. I have something called "Keulsoft SPL meter" and that has several weighting curves. The usual setting is "A" and that is for road and industrial noise and cuts a lot of lower mid and low frequencies.

Dave.
 
Hello. My apologies if I use the wrong vocabulary. I've been recording singer/songwriter stuff with vocals, acoustic guitar, and occasional acoustic and electric overdubs. I read somewhere about how the inputs should be set to a certain dB level for recording. I normally record acoustic guitar (mostly fingerpicking) where the loudest peaks land somewhere between -9 to -6 dB. I aim for a similar target window with vocals, so as to leave headroom for later things. However, the finished product typically has the instruments coming in quiet and the vocals coming in loud. I outsource my mixing and the person I hired told me that whenever he tries to raise the instrument tracks, ambient and computer noise that was picked up by the mics becomes more prominent.

I posted a thread elsewhere about making my computer more quiet. What can I do to get the vocal tracks and instrument tracks to meet in a place closer to equilibrium?

Thank you.
What are the acoustic guitar track levels before you start playing? Is there a lot of background noise because you play softly and have to boost the preamp gain?

I ask because I have recorded acoustic guitar sitting right in front of my workstation computer that sits on the floor under my desk with out any problems. I'm using a Rode NT1 about a foot from the guitar and 90 degrees and ~2 feet to the computer. I recorded the vocal in the same location except I was standing so the NT1 was higher. For vocals the pop filter is 3~4" or so from the mic, and I am usually about 3 or 4" from the pop filter when I sing.
 
What are the acoustic guitar track levels before you start playing? Is there a lot of background noise because you play softly and have to boost the preamp gain?

I ask because I have recorded acoustic guitar sitting right in front of my workstation computer that sits on the floor under my desk with out any problems. I'm using a Rode NT1 about a foot from the guitar and 90 degrees and ~2 feet to the computer. I recorded the vocal in the same location except I was standing so the NT1 was higher. For vocals the pop filter is 3~4" or so from the mic, and I am usually about 3 or 4" from the pop filter when I sing.
"Circumstances alter cases". My son records picked classical guitar about 1/2mtr from a pair of Lewitt SDCs onto a Lenovo laptop and get a very decent S/N ratio. That's cars allowing and people not banging on his window! I shall see if I can find a clip..

That's the last thing I had from him you can judge noise at the end.

Dave.
 

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Hello. My apologies if I use the wrong vocabulary. I've been recording singer/songwriter stuff with vocals, acoustic guitar, and occasional acoustic and electric overdubs. I read somewhere about how the inputs should be set to a certain dB level for recording. I normally record acoustic guitar (mostly fingerpicking) where the loudest peaks land somewhere between -9 to -6 dB. I aim for a similar target window with vocals, so as to leave headroom for later things. However, the finished product typically has the instruments coming in quiet and the vocals coming in loud. I outsource my mixing and the person I hired told me that whenever he tries to raise the instrument tracks, ambient and computer noise that was picked up by the mics becomes more prominent.
You aren’t hearing correctly - your voice is loud probably and the guitar quiet but you hear the guitar better than your voice - first thing reposition the Guitar Mic - either closer or less of an angle - second bring the vocal mic closer - 1 foot or so - and take a look at the response chart below: SM81 is first and it’s flat for the most part
- while the NT1000 has significant bumps at 2Khz and above - you might try reversing the Microphones - NT1000 on Guitar and the SM81 on vocals.
 

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Get closer to the mic. Put the pop screen within an inch of the grille and your lips practically touching the screen. Adjust the gain so the signal stays well clear of clipping.

This will tend to accentuate the lows, but eq can compensate. If the mic has a high pass filter, engage it.

[Edit] Obviously I didn't read your post well enough. But the principle applies. Getting closer or playing louder will increase the difference between the signal and the noise. If you can't do that, you have to reduce the noise.
Thank you for explaining. I think I know what to do. Rode has an LDC model like mine but with knobs, I'm assuming it may have a high pass filter. But my model has no such adjustments.
 
Rich is correct. Adjusting the input gain level wont help with this because it's adjusting the source (voice/instrument) and background noise equally.
As he said, the solution is to adjust the ratio of source to background noise, as perceived by the microphone.

Your pictures aren't loading just now - we had a major forum update today,
but from your text
"My face is already ~2 ft in front of the vocal mic"

2 foot is fairly far. That gives you room to work with.
First thing I'd do is bring the recording input gain down and try working at 1 foot or closer.
That will make a huge difference.

The other approach is to move the computer farther away or make it quieter.
What computer do you have?
It's possible, having checked temperatures to be sure, that you could run a slower fan profile while recording.



* SPL is sound pressure level.
They're telling you the microphone shouldn't shit the bed if you put it on a snare drum or guitar amplifier. (y)
Thank you. I believe I have a grasp on the mic distance/input gain concept. My computer is a Sonica Grandia GD-02 that I purchased back in 2009. It was made for music recording with an insulated case and hot rodded specs. I will look under the hood and see if there is a way to control the fan.
 
What are the acoustic guitar track levels before you start playing? Is there a lot of background noise because you play softly and have to boost the preamp gain?

I ask because I have recorded acoustic guitar sitting right in front of my workstation computer that sits on the floor under my desk with out any problems. I'm using a Rode NT1 about a foot from the guitar and 90 degrees and ~2 feet to the computer. I recorded the vocal in the same location except I was standing so the NT1 was higher. For vocals the pop filter is 3~4" or so from the mic, and I am usually about 3 or 4" from the pop filter when I sing.
You raise good points. I guess some of my issues are playing quiet in some parts of a song, but playing a little louder in other parts. So the averages are coming in pretty low, prolly lower than -20 dB, but the louder parts sometimes go up to -6 dB. So I sometimes have trouble getting a good balance between "extreme" highs and lows whenever I dial in the input gain.

Same phenomenon with vocals.
 
What you really need to do is change the dynamic range, as in bring up the low points, throttle back the loud parts. Luckily we have a tool to do this - the compressor. They can be used in a subtle way, and like this, are pretty much transparent, or you can have them squash the dynamic heavily. If you do this, you can often hear the background noises coming in and out - a sort of 'breathing' sound. Great for effect but clearly man-made. Compressors partner with limiters. This is a totally different process. Limiters simply prevent sound going above a certain level - like the things lorries have at 55mph in the UK. You can accelerate like mad, but once you hit 55, it takes your foot off the pedal for you. Compressors are great for managing changes in volume that are too much. A song with a gentle, almost whispered lyric that goes crazy in the chorus. On voices, the best compressor is a fast finger on a fader so you can reduce the level just before the belted note, or final piano mega chord downbeat. With practice, your fingers can almost 'play' the faders, and nowadays with computers able to remember fader moves, I still prefer this.

As other have said, mic distance with singing and playing at the same time is key. It's really crucial to have only vocals in the vocal mic channel and only guitar in the guitar channel. Bleed from one to the other ruins everything. Moving mics closer changes the sound with cardioid mics, so move the mic means change the EQ. That is perfectly normal. Close in, tiny distance changes really matter, so in your case, use the popper stopper as a barrier. adjust it so it touches your nose, and keep your nose at that distance throughout. That way, your vocal tone stays identical. Your hand sets the distance for the guitar mic, so cannot be too close or you thump it. Again, above it was explained but make sure you re-read it. Find out where your guitar mic is least sensitive. your voice needs to arrive from that direction. It probably means above where you expect, but aiming down.

Think of cardioid mics as LED torches. The light beam needs to illuminate the thing making the best sound, and anything else must be in shadow. Do this with headphones turned up fairly high so you can listen to the guitar mic when you sing and don't play, and vice versa. finding the magic spot is vital for two channels with different material. Imagine you want to delay a bit of your vocal, just a bit because it was a tiny bit early. You can do this so easily in a DAW - if the vocal channel ONLY has vocals in it. If the vocal is in the guitar channel too, you cannot move it!
 
Just realised this is essentially the same as your other thread.
The title may change but the physics won't.

You've got two sources of noise (computer and you) and one capture device (microphone).
You need to balance them either by adjusting the volume or position of the two sources.

Your microphones shouldn't care if you're 1" from the grill, with adequate pop filtering (for vocal) and the input gains turned down,
so it sounds like you've got lots of room to get closer.

Your PC shouldn't be running hot for audio recording so, mostly likely, there's room to make the fans run slower.

That's two potential ways to solve the problem.


Use of a compressor or limiter (same thing, one with greater control) is going to make it worse.
 
ambient noise.
just plugging in the mic with it ON, idle, what does your ambient room noise floor read in your DAW track with each mic? -70, -50, -80?
what does your mixing eng want or prefer for ambient noise floor?

you should have HPF in your real time plugins too that might help some. a plugin would probably allow more control than a mic HPF as you can change from 60,80, 120hz, roll off etc.

I was looking into fanless-minipc but just moving my tower with extension cables dropped the fan noise a lot.
A Laptop is probably much quieter too.

Mic placement might help reduce the noise, turning the mic, try different location in the room. Have your Null zone aimed at the noise source (PC fan).might help.

Having some monster PC for mixing with fan noises doesnt work or isn't needed in Tracking....the conundrum of HR, there's no Control Room and Tracking room, its all in one room.
 
"Circumstances alter cases". My son records picked classical guitar about 1/2mtr from a pair of Lewitt SDCs onto a Lenovo laptop and get a very decent S/N ratio. That's cars allowing and people not banging on his window! I shall see if I can find a clip..

That's the last thing I had from him you can judge noise at the end.

Dave.
The noise level sounded pretty low. I couldn't really tell if it would be a problem.

And I know what you mean about outside noises. I used to just stop, but now I keep going. I always do several takes of guitar and vocals, and can use parts to fill in or replace mistakes.
 
The noise level sounded pretty low. I couldn't really tell if it would be a problem.

And I know what you mean about outside noises. I used to just stop, but now I keep going. I always do several takes of guitar and vocals, and can use parts to fill in or replace mistakes.
One of the basic mistakes people often make when listen back to instruments (and especially speech) is to run at too high a level. Check how loud the guitar is on your SPL app then set monitoring accordingly. "Pro" studio people are not immune to this either I am told?

Dave.
 
Just realised this is essentially the same as your other thread.
The title may change but the physics won't.

You've got two sources of noise (computer and you) and one capture device (microphone).
You need to balance them either by adjusting the volume or position of the two sources.

Your microphones shouldn't care if you're 1" from the grill, with adequate pop filtering (for vocal) and the input gains turned down,
so it sounds like you've got lots of room to get closer.

Your PC shouldn't be running hot for audio recording so, mostly likely, there's room to make the fans run slower.

That's two potential ways to solve the problem.


Use of a compressor or limiter (same thing, one with greater control) is going to make it worse.
Sorry about that, I never was great in physics class.

Thank you for breaking it down into simple terms I can understand.
 
ambient noise.
just plugging in the mic with it ON, idle, what does your ambient room noise floor read in your DAW track with each mic? -70, -50, -80?
what does your mixing eng want or prefer for ambient noise floor?
Good questions, I didn't think about that. I will check with him about noise floor and next time I'm recording, I will pay attention.
you should have HPF in your real time plugins too that might help some. a plugin would probably allow more control than a mic HPF as you can change from 60,80, 120hz, roll off etc..
I will also look to see if I have any HPF real time plugins.
I was looking into fanless-minipc but just moving my tower with extension cables dropped the fan noise a lot.
A Laptop is probably much quieter too.

Mic placement might help reduce the noise, turning the mic, try different location in the room. Have your Null zone aimed at the noise source (PC fan).might help.

Having some monster PC for mixing with fan noises doesnt work or isn't needed in Tracking....the conundrum of HR, there's no Control Room and Tracking room, its all in one room.
All great suggestions. Thank you for your time :-)
 
WRT to the noise floor, you have to be realistic in a "domestic" situation. I have done tests where I have buried mics in layers of a duvet and got noise floors better than -70dBFS (that is better than any tape machine or vinyl) but once "the covers are off" the ambient noise worsens that by several dB even though the house is subjectively silent in the wee small hours and I live in a very quiet suburb (Google NN5 5PF UK)

You cannot rely on a sound level meter to measure this, not even a $100 'proper' one. They all seem to have a self noise of around 20dB, after all they ARE "NOISE" meters not "quietness" meters!

Your lack of knowledge regarding physics is unfortunate! The whole process of recording and reproducing sound is BOUND UP with the science and engineering of the various items involved. IMHO making good recordings is 90% 'science' and 10% 'mojo'! That does however mean the artist's talent is a given. "Pigs ears" an all that swadllin'.

Dave.
 
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