Tone

  • Thread starter Thread starter GOYA
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Light said:
However, the earliest confirmed attribution he has is Elvis Costello, which means I'm changing who I attribute it to from now on as Elvis Costello is cooler than any of the other people on that page. (I end up saying it a lot, as customers are always asking me questions which no one could honestly answer).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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There is no way that Costello is cooler than FZ was...;)
 
GOYA said:
Define it.
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Tone is what sounds good, bad or indifferent to our ears.

Everyone's ears are not exactly the same which makes people hear sounds or tone differently. Good tone to one will suck to another etc.

However there is a tonal 'sweet spot' where because of various factors most people will agree and like or dislike what they hear.

Tone is the interaction between the player/artist and instrument/equipment with the artist probably being the most important factor in determining good or bad tone.
 
muttley600 said:
There is no way that Costello is cooler than FZ was...;)
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Frank Zappa is pretty cool, but he can not compare to Elvis Costello. Though I will admit they have a certain similarity in their versitility. They are two of the only famous rock musicians I can think of who can successfully transcend the genre - Zappa into classical; and Costello into, well, pretty much everything, jazz, classical, classic American song, you name it, he does it well. (I've heard a couple movements from his recently premiered symphony, and it's excellent - and unlike most pop musicians, his has been extremely well received by the classical music community.)

(I'm really more enamored of songwriters than guitar players, and on that one Frank Zappa can not compete.)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Frank Zappa is pretty cool, but he can not compare to Elvis Costello. Though I will admit they have a certain similarity in their versitility. They are two of the only famous rock musicians I can think of who can successfully transcend the genre - Zappa into classical; and Costello into, well, pretty much everything, jazz, classical, classic American song, you name it, he does it well. (I've heard a couple movements from his recently premiered symphony, and it's excellent - and unlike most pop musicians, his has been extremely well received by the classical music community.)

(I'm really more enamored of songwriters than guitar players, and on that one Frank Zappa can not compete.)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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Declan was one of the guys round these parts. FZ was a musical genius that will rank along side if not above the likes of Ellington and Strayhorn.

To say FZ was not a songwriter is just crass. How many Costello tunes are in the fake book? There are quite a few FZ toons in there. I get off on the music of both but Zappa wins on every count.

Make a jazz noise here.;)
 
muttley600 said:
Declan was one of the guys round these parts. FZ was a musical genius that will rank along side if not above the likes of Ellington and Strayhorn.

To say FZ was not a songwriter is just crass. How many Costello tunes are in the fake book? There are quite a few FZ toons in there. I get off on the music of both but Zappa wins on every count.

Make a jazz noise here.;)
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ya stuff like Bobby brown and baby snakes make me swoon with delight:rolleyes::eek:
 
muttley600 said:
Declan was one of the guys round these parts. FZ was a musical genius that will rank along side if not above the likes of Ellington and Strayhorn.

To say FZ was not a songwriter is just crass. How many Costello tunes are in the fake book? There are quite a few FZ toons in there. I get off on the music of both but Zappa wins on every count.

Make a jazz noise here.;)
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Is Frank Zappa a great guitar player? Yes.

Is Frank Zappa a great arranger? Probably one of the best Rock & Roll has ever seen. Certainly the best experimental arranger in Rock & Roll.

Is Frank Zappa a great composer? Unquestionably.

But a great SONG writer?

The test, in my opinion, of a great song is to dissociate it from it's arrangement, and see if it's still great. With Elvis Costello, there is no question that every song works with nothing more than a guitar OR a piano and a singer. The same can not be said of Frank Zappa.

Also, Duke Ellington wrote and arranged music for normal people - non-musicians. Frank Zappa wrote music for musicians and stoners. GREAT music for musicians and stoners, but none the less. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I like that stuff too, but its not the same thing at all.

As for the Fake Book thing - the most popular one over here is The Real Book, which came out (illegally, of course) about three years before My Aim is True. Pretty hard to put songs in there which haven't been written yet. But as for songs which could easily become standards (much easier than anything Zappa ever wrote), I'd have to START with Allison, Almost Blue, Shipbuilding, and Veronica. Each one of which has a better hook than anything FZ every wrote (though to be fair, he had a bit of help on Veronica from one of the best melodic hook writers of all time - a Knight of some sort).

You gotta understand, though, that Elvis Costello is one of my two or three all time favorite songwriters, hands down.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
defining tone is an exercise in worthless threads.....
 
Light said:
Is Frank Zappa a great guitar player? Yes.

Is Frank Zappa a great arranger? Probably one of the best Rock & Roll has ever seen. Certainly the best experimental arranger in Rock & Roll.

Is Frank Zappa a great composer? Unquestionably.

But a great SONG writer?

The test, in my opinion, of a great song is to dissociate it from it's arrangement, and see if it's still great. With Elvis Costello, there is no question that every song works with nothing more than a guitar OR a piano and a singer. The same can not be said of Frank Zappa.

Also, Duke Ellington wrote and arranged music for normal people - non-musicians. Frank Zappa wrote music for musicians and stoners. GREAT music for musicians and stoners, but none the less. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I like that stuff too, but its not the same thing at all.

As for the Fake Book thing - the most popular one over here is The Real Book, which came out (illegally, of course) about three years before My Aim is True. Pretty hard to put songs in there which haven't been written yet. But as for songs which could easily become standards (much easier than anything Zappa ever wrote), I'd have to START with Allison, Almost Blue, Shipbuilding, and Veronica. Each one of which has a better hook than anything FZ every wrote (though to be fair, he had a bit of help on Veronica from one of the best melodic hook writers of all time - a Knight of some sort).

You gotta understand, though, that Elvis Costello is one of my two or three all time favorite songwriters, hands down.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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I disagree with a whole bunch of that, specifically your definition of "song writing". But leaving that aside we we're talking about being cool and whilst Elvis C is a dude, FZ was and is the uberdude.;) Far more craft in his music.

One thing we can agree on is that both are waaayyy cooler than Steve Martin.:D
 
muttley600 said:
But leaving that aside we we're talking about being cool and whilst Elvis C is a dude, FZ was and is the uberdude.;) Far more craft in his music.
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Sorry, but the only two musician's in history cooler than Elvis C are Joe Strummer and Miles Davis. :p:p:p

If you want proof that Elvis C is cooler than FZ, just think about these things - Elvis C took his name from Elvis Presley while Presley was still alive; and FZ was never banned from Saturday Night Live, which in and of itself puts one an a level of coolness which is pretty hard to touch! Oh yeah, and Elvis Costello has co-written with Paul McCartney and Burt Bacharach, and he is married to one hell of a babe who can play awfully well too.

And he never saddled his poor children with names like Moon Unit and Dweezil.:eek::D:eek::D:eek::D

I like Frank Zappa fine, but I think he was at his best when he was writing for orchestras. His intellectual bent fits better in that world.

muttley600 said:
One thing we can agree on is that both are waaayyy cooler than Steve Martin.:D
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I don't know, Steve Martin - when he's not acting like a moron - can be pretty cool. Ever see L.A. Story? Some of my favorite light comedy movie writing in that one. Then again, he also did Parenthood; and Parenthood II; so I guess you're probably right - but when he's good he's great! ;);)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
And he never saddled his poor children with names like Moon Unit and Dweezil.:eek::D:eek::D:eek::D

I like Frank Zappa fine, but I think he was at his best when he was writing for orchestras. His intellectual bent fits better in that world.
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Dude I thought Dweezil was a cool name.
+1 for the second paragraph.
 
muttley600 said:
There is however method in my obliqueness.:p The question is meaning less without context. How I choose to answer it was correct in every regard. In fact it was perfect, more perfect than any other answer you will get on the subject. The fact that the answer isn't the one you wanted to hear is the issue. Maybe you should put some context to the discussion, or should we move on to define love, art, and awareness now we are done. Those are harder to define as they have no root in science that can be clearly defined.
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Actually, it sounded as though you more accurately defined "timbre"
 
famous beagle said:
Actually, it sounded as though you more accurately defined "timbre"
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To musical acousticians timbre is more regarded as a perception, It's a tricky concept of distinction to grasp for some students. The neatest definition is, and I take this from the American standards association, "that attribute of sensation in terms of which a listener can judge that two sounds having the same loudness and pitch are dissimilar". The key difference is that timbre involves perception and relates specifically to individual tones or what is often called tone colour. Tone is not defined as a perception but as a fixed property of a sound wave.
 
Wow, that's interesting. If that's the case, then the word "timbre" is misused quite often throughout the academic world. It's always described as, basically, the difference in sound from one instrument to another attributable to the different harmonics present.

muttley600 said:
To musical acousticians timbre is more regarded as a perception, It's a tricky concept of distinction to grasp for some students. The neatest definition is, and I take this from the American standards association, "that attribute of sensation in terms of which a listener can judge that two sounds having the same loudness and pitch are dissimilar". The key difference is that timbre involves perception and relates specifically to individual tones or what is often called tone colour. Tone is not defined as a perception but as a fixed property of a sound wave.
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famous beagle said:
Wow, that's interesting. If that's the case, then the word "timbre" is misused quite often throughout the academic world. It's always described as, basically, the difference in sound from one instrument to another attributable to the different harmonics present.
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It's misused quite often in many environments but most acoustician's are quite clear about the difference. To be honest both tone and timbre as terms are used erroneously in many situations. I wouldn't say that the academic world is any more guilty in that respect. Good science will clearly define terms used in any abstract or model before attempting to make any observations or draw any conclusions.
 
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