The New Tone Thread

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Ray you've got good separation but those tones are thick and dark. And IMO it's not even necessarily a mic placement or amp setting thing. I suspect this is a result of the guitar and how you play it. Like Tad mentioned, how you play effects the result. In this case, banging powerchords on the bass strings of a guitar yields this kind of sound. I like what you did though. The guitars punch and attack their way through the song, but they're just like a glorified bass line. There's not much high end info from the guitars, and I don't mean EQ. I mean there's no high strings in there. Think of someone like Joe Strummer, right? He played very clean and just banged he shit out of his Tele. He'd punch the bridge almost off the guitar. But his sound is rich and lively. How so? He often played the top half of major chords. Lots of harmonic content in his chording. Same with Johnny Ramone. Same with the AC/DC boys. Same with damn near every late 70s english power-pop band. Clean-ish guitars played big and hard. None of them use tons of gain, but their respective sounds are rich and powerful because they play beyond the most bare bones two note powerchord. The guitar track is loaded with musical information just from the hands. That's how I hear it anyway. I may just be rambling. It's early.

So....to sum up, I'd suggest you try a couple of things by themselves or in combination.
1) If you wanna just bash out powerchords, then cool, but it needs a little more gain and high end to help with harmonic content. Powerchords work best with some distortion.
2) Keep what you have and layer in some open chords to help fill in the higher end.
3) Back the gain down a hair and re-do it with downstroked open or barre chords. Get some more strings involved.
 
G'day Greg,
I figured the Power Chords rooted on the E string were the basic problem.
I can't play barre chords - a semi carpel tunnel thing means I can't get the 1st finger flat and then make shapes with the others.
All I used on the previous tracks for this song is the amp, (& the sonic stomp)so I'll have to use a booster if I go for more gain - can do that easily enough.
I'll have to learn the song on open chords - I haven't bothered on this track except the verse so I will try that. (& I'll try the Strummer option if I can get my head around not playing the whole chord).
I'll try options 1, 2 & 3 tomorrow.
 
Ray, just adding the major or minor 3rd to a powerchord makes a world of difference. You don't have to barre the whole thing. Take an A maj chord rooted on the big E string, for example.

High E - X
B - X
G - middle finger 6th fret - this is your major third
D - pinky 7th fret
A - ring finger 7th fret
Low E - index finger 5th fret

This is a basic 4-string major chord that uses the powerchord shape. Adding that 3rd in there gives it some life.

Or, the Strummer version...

High E - index finger 5th fret
B - index finger 5th fret - High E and B barred with index finger
G - middle finger 6th fret - this is the major 3rd
D - pinky or ring finger 7th fret
A - X - or ring finger 7th fret optional - D and A strings barred with ring finger
Low E - X - or thumb over 5th fret optional

Either one of those major chord variants can use the same shape up and down the neck. One's a powerchord/barre shape, the Strummer is like an F-chord shape. They both work everywhere when you're using the low E as your root.

To make them minor, just flatten the magical 3rd a half step. Bam, two shapes and you got major and minor chords everywhere and lots of flavor.

I'd say 50% of my rhythm playing is using just this stuff. The other 50% is actual open chords. Very rarely, almost never, do I use the basic two-note powerchord.
 
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WOW, thanks Greg.
I'll copy that info and start learning. I've already practiced with open chords - had to throw in an Am because the chorus begins and end on A.
Your stuff may make life easier.
Again, thanks.
 
Yup, no prob. And just so you know, that was pretty much all of my theory knowledge in one post. :laughings:
 
You know something Greg, you may have just pointed out why some of my tracks sound flat, & some of 'em are fizz-ridden. They're all actually fizz-ridden, I just don't play enough of the high-end content for it to come through on certain things...And the re-amped tracks don't help me in the tone quest either, because they're the same way basically....

IE: I re-amped some tracks yesterday, but for the life of me, I couldn't get them to sit in the mix...


The new-to-me wah pedal will be here tomorrow...:)
 
Finally did some recording w/ my local band the Flying Monkease, even though we've had some attrition and we're down to two members.

What do you think of my Robby Krieger desecration tone in this one?



The drums are fake because we lost our sixth or seventh drummer. I stopped counting.


edit: here are the guitar recording details:

Guitar: 2004 Gibson SG Supreme, stock 57 Classic bridge pickup, vol, tone all the way up
Effects: main rhythm track: no effects; first solo: Fulltone Octafuzz; second solo: Fulltone Octafuzz + Budda Wah
Amp: 1986 Marshall JCM800 2204: presence: 0; bass: 7; mid: 6; treble: 6; master vol: 1; preamp: 7
Cabinet: Mojotone 4x12 with Celestion Greenbacks (the re-issues from the 1990s)
Microphone: Samar Audio VL37 -- ribbon mic made by Marik here on the board - (my fav for this so far by a wide margin) on axis about 6 inches from a speaker
Preamp: Chandler TG2 - input: 40; output: 4.5 (both knobs at about 11:30 o'clock - the scale is different between them)
Converter: Lynx Aurora 16
DAW: Logic

mix time I screwed everything up by overcompressing with an API 2500 - I won't put the settings because I have to go back and do it over :)
 
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LOUD
The added vox seem to pull the mains back into the abyss. How is that?
I think it belongs as a tough song.
The cymbals are a tad too splashy though..
 

Today's rendering - only glue comp on the master buss.
I had a go with the two new chord shapes & they WILL sound good once I learn to changes smooth;y.
In the meantime I've added down stroke open chords behind the 5ths to add some top end.
this far nothing of the guitars except a little compression on the guitar buss.
Improvement?
I had to redo one of them as there was some weird flange thing happening on the B - must have been the voicing I chose or my down strum was weird.
One side has open chords down strummed and the other has open chords Up n down because I grew weary.
 
rayc said:

Today's rendering - only glue comp on the master buss.
I had a go with the two new chord shapes & they WILL sound good once I learn to changes smooth;y.
In the meantime I've added down stroke open chords behind the 5ths to add some top end.
this far nothing of the guitars except a little compression on the guitar buss.
Improvement?
I had to redo one of them as there was some weird flange thing happening on the B - must have been the voicing I chose or my down strum was weird.
One side has open chords down strummed and the other has open chords Up n down because I grew weary.
Click to expand...
That's an improvement but it sounds like you may have some intonation problems with whatever guitars you're using. There's some weirdness in the layering and chording. It could be that you're using on of your new major chords where a minor would sound better. But it sounds off to me like the guitar is a little out of tune or the intonation is bad.
 
Thanks Greg,
Yeah I heard that too.
BUT as I'm more interested in getting a good tone at present so I'll be happy to go back and replace anything that's not up to scratch .
2 different guitars so I'll opt for the Bruno as its tracks seem to fit with each other better.
I'm pretty right with the chord shape that barre's the EB strings now. I accidentally used some of that when I recorded Listen Like Brian - just a shape that seemed to work for the reggae like chop in the chorus.
Moving around enough to play something like D is where I'll have to get some prac in.
Oh, yeah there are a couple of spots where a minor would be a better option all round. I'll try that as well.
 
minerman said:
You know something Greg, you may have just pointed out why some of my tracks sound flat, & some of 'em are fizz-ridden. They're all actually fizz-ridden, I just don't play enough of the high-end content for it to come through on certain things...And the re-amped tracks don't help me in the tone quest either, because they're the same way basically....

IE: I re-amped some tracks yesterday, but for the life of me, I couldn't get them to sit in the mix...


The new-to-me wah pedal will be here tomorrow...:)
Click to expand...
You tracks didn't used to be fizzy. There's nothing wrong with how you play IMO. I think it's just that EVH amp. It's obviously made for face melting gain, and that much gain in a little package can't not be fizzy.

antichef said:
Finally did some recording w/ my local band the Flying Monkease, even though we've had some attrition and we're down to two members.

What do you think of my Robby Krieger desecration tone in this one?



The drums are fake because we lost our sixth or seventh drummer. I stopped counting.
Click to expand...

Hey good to see you in here again.

Band members suck, right? I'm constantly having bass player problems no matter what band I'm in. Good players are happily in bands and unavailable. What's left is crap because everyone thinks they can play bass when they can't do anything else.

Anyway, love the song. Awesome guitar sound. That track sounds like perfect proto done with modern recording. Like if The Sonics had what we had, they'd record it like that. I like it. The compression is really murdering the ride cymbal though. That super long loud swoosh and decay is distracting.
 
rayc said:
Thanks Greg,
Yeah I heard that too.
BUT as I'm more interested in getting a good tone at present so I'll be happy to go back and replace anything that's not up to scratch .
2 different guitars so I'll opt for the Bruno as its tracks seem to fit with each other better.
I'm pretty right with the chord shape that barre's the EB strings now. I accidentally used some of that when I recorded Listen Like Brian - just a shape that seemed to work for the reggae like chop in the chorus.
Moving around enough to play something like D is where I'll have to get some prac in.
Oh, yeah there are a couple of spots where a minor would be a better option all round. I'll try that as well.
Click to expand...

Playing a D with the "Strummer" shape would put you way up the neck. Intonation will really reveal itself up there. That's an instance where the actual open D chord would probably be better, or do a D on the 5th fret of the A string. I was gonna mention this one to you next anyway, so here is the next powerchord shape that's actually a major chord.....

So, for example, you wanna play a D chord on the A string using the powerchord shape...lots of barre-ing in this one.

High E - X
B - ring finger 7th fret - this is your maj 3rd
G - ring finger 7th fret
D - ring finger 7th fret
A - Index finger 5th fret
Low E - index finger 5th fret

So as you can see, it's just two fingers and it looks exactly like a powerchord...but it's a major. This is no two-note dummy chorrd. You're playing 5 strings with two fingers. You gotta barre with your ring finger though. Lots of shimmer in this chord shape. The root is the index finger fretting D on the A string. Adding the lower 5th with your index finger on the E string also really helps thicken it up. This position also works anywhere on the A string. You can fly up and down the neck using this shape anywhere on the A string.

If you wanna make this a minor, you use the same hand shape you'd use for a maj chord based on the E string, but you'd play it on the A.

High E - index finger 5th fret
B - middle finger 6th fret - this is your flattened 3rd for minor
G - pinky 7th fret
D - ring finger 7th fret
A - index finger 5th fret
Low E - index finger 5th fret

So now you just made that D a minor on the A string. Same hand shape as a major on the E string. Works all over the A string no matter what the root note is.

I use these chord shapes all the time. They look like dumb ol powerchords, but they aren't. They sound huge and are loaded with harmonic content when played properly. I've had people ask me "how do you get so much sound out of a powerchord?". This is how. It aint a powerchord, it just looks like one. :D
 
Ray: I think the last clip (post #11950) is the best out of the bunch dude, the first clip was kinda harsh, but it had more drive/od, which I personally like, but again, the last clip you seem to have found a good middle-ground, & it seems a lot smoother to my ears...

Antichef: Good clip man, sounds like a live band to me, if you hadn't pointed out the drums were fake, I wouldn't have really noticed...Good to see you back here!!!


Got the wah pedal today (thanks again Bill), & I've been messing with it, definitely gonna have to work on my skills with it, but it already sounds much better than the vst versions I've been using for years now...

On the fizz, man I hate that shit...I'm a gain-head, & it's obviously a big reason I bought the little amp, but I'm gonna have to get rid of the fizz. I'm pretty sure a good twist of the volume knob will help, but this little amp is fizzy by nature/design...I still have to watch how loud I get, & it's kinda blew over for now, but I really don't wanna bother my sick neighbor...
 
Rayc - I love your compositions, especially when you're singing. I had fun listening to that last version, and the tone sounded good to me and appropriate for the song. There may well be some intonation issues with the setup on the guitar, but after listening to my sloppy solos, you'll notice that I tend to veer off of temper tuned road and stay in the ditch, and so it all sounds good to me.

You're also much more talented (and restrainted) with bus compression than I am - thanks everyone for pointing out the damage I perpetrated on my track - I'll fix it. I'll also update the post with the technical details as is our honored custom here.

Minerman - I was a no-pedals guy (except for a Tube Screamer that was always on) from 1984 to about 2006, and then I finally broke down and got a wah. I now think they're awesome - you're going to have a blast. I went on a pedal kick from about 2012-2015 - having them on a board even though I don't turn most of them on. Now I'm in reduction mode. But the wah stays.

I scrolled back looking for your clip, but I haven't found it yet. If you perceive your amp to be fizzy, could it be that there's a "bright cap" in the signal path - probably a little ceramic capacitor hooked into the tone controls somewhere? There was one in my 2204 (the amp you hear in my recent post) and I thought I was sounding fizzy, but then I pulled it by heating up one side of the solder and pulling up that lead -- so I can easily put it back -- and to me the amp has sounded much better since.
 
antichef said:
Minerman - I was a no-pedals guy (except for a Tube Screamer that was always on) from 1984 to about 2006, and then I finally broke down and got a wah. I now think they're awesome - you're going to have a blast. I went on a pedal kick from about 2012-2015 - having them on a board even though I don't turn most of them on. Now I'm in reduction mode. But the wah stays.

I scrolled back looking for your clip, but I haven't found it yet. If you perceive your amp to be fizzy, could it be that there's a "bright cap" in the signal path - probably a little ceramic capacitor hooked into the tone controls somewhere? There was one in my 2204 (the amp you hear in my recent post) and I thought I was sounding fizzy, but then I pulled it by heating up one side of the solder and pulling up that lead -- so I can easily put it back -- and to me the amp has sounded much better since.
Click to expand...

Thanks man, I'm actually playing with the wah right now, but it will take some getting used to. So far, I really like it, a lot...

On the amp, I'm not gonna go into doing any mods just yet, gonna see how I can dial the amp in a little better. The first few clips I posted were pretty good IMO, so I probably just need to go back & see where I had everything set, then take it from there...
 
Added those to my learning list thanks Greg.
I had tried the 12th fret D and it sounded terrible. I was having trouble changing to open D which is why I opted to stay with all open chords for the last version's additions.
I'll address the intonation issue by sticking with the more stable guitar for this project.
I'll try and get some of these shapes into my vocabulary/muscle memory before I do another project.
Having survived on the same 10 chord shapes since 1976 I've finally found the need to progress a tiny bit further.
Minerman - ta - compromise in tone/attack and I'm slowly getting there.
Antichef,
A wheel on the track and a wheel in the ditch is often the way I like it man. Thanks for your kind words re the composition.
 
Lawksamercy. The electric guitar chord has been re-discovered. What kind of lost and misbegotten universe of electric guitar playing do you have to have been brought up in to not know about chords with added thirds?

When I was a kid, we were too poor to be able to afford thirds in our chords, flattened or otherwise. Sevenths and ninths weren't for the likes of us. We used to have to make do with dyads all the time and be thankful for them.

And when you try to tell the young people of today that - they won't believe you.
 
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Bob,
I lived with just open chords for most of my adult life. RECENTLY I discovered that the way I play them they are tonally trunkated NOW I'm learning how to extend the power chord to add some much needed top end otherwise I'll have to rely on the less meaty open chords or another player.
My misbegotten universe has always been retarded by a lack of instruction &/or willingness to accept guitar playing as the focus for learning as I maintained my bassist stance. I was shown six chords in '76, I found another six across the next 40 years by accident and one from a book. I discovered power chords accidentally in about 83 and used them as something to fill in for the chords I didn't know and wrote a couple of songs using them . For much of my songwriting the dozen were enough but lately I've been coming up with progressions that require meat and need to meet the need for meat mate.
 
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