The New Tone Thread

[notCardio]

What kind of ISO cab do you have dude???

I've got a couple of the old-school Randalls. Wish I had one of those new side-firing ones that are the same size as a 4x12 cab.

One cab has a V30, one has a JBL E120.

 

[minerman]

I'd like to get a single Greenback to try in an Iso-cab, just to see what they sound like.

Here's a clip I made with my home-made ISO cab I used to have.

Signal chain: LP > Marshall DSL-1H > Greenback > '57 on the cap/cone, & IIRC, I had a condenser stuck behind the speaker in the ISO cab, I'd have to find the Reaper project to be sure about the condenser though...

 

[minerman]

I've got a couple of the old-school Randalls. Wish I had one of those new side-firing ones that are the same size as a 4x12 cab.

One cab has a V30, one has a JBL E120.

I've got one of the Randall ISO cabs too, & I'm really underwhelmed by it myself. You got any pointers for this thing??? I've tried everything I know of to get the boxy-ness out of the sound, & just can't do it. The home-made ISO cab I had sounded pretty damn good IMO, but it was about 3 times as big on the inside as the Randall...

 

[Greg_L]

I know it's hard to describe what things sound like, but could you give a comparison of them to V30s? I've already got a V30, but I wouldn't call it 'broken in'. Does breaking them in make a big difference? Also, I don't push them very hard, if at all. I run it in a Iso-cab with a 5W amp generally, unless I use the 15W Blues Jr., and even then, I don't push the amps. I just never have any alone time with them.

IMO, the V30 needs to be pushed pretty hard. It's a heavy magnet, high efficiency speaker, and it needs some power to really hit it's sweet spot. Breaking a speaker in does make a big difference if you got it brand new. It's all subjective of course, but if you're driving a V30 with a 5-15w amp, you're not even making it breathe hard. In that case, a Greenback could be a better choice.

They do sound quite different to me. They're both pretty "crunchy" for overdriven tones, but they do it in different ways. I think the Greenback is a little warmer, rounder, looser, however you wanna describe it. I think a Greenback has better low end and a smoother midrange. The V30 has a very tight bottom, strong midrange, and some people say they can sound ice-picky. They can sound ice-picky and a little woofy in the midrange....but that all goes away when you drive them hard. They need to be pushed IMO. A Greenback doesn't require as much power to really loosen up. But a V30 "cuts" like a samurai sword through hot butter. If you want to be heard, the V30 is the shit. They sound great in a live setting, and all that cut does translate into a mix when recorded. For strict cleans or very mild breakup, the V30 keeps it's composure a lot better than a Greenback. A greenback wants to crunch up really easily. A V30's stiffness helps for pure cleans. This is all just my opinion of course. I use both speakers religiously.

 

[minerman]

Good description of the V30 vs Greenback thing Greg, that's about how I hear 'em too, the GB can be a little flubby in the low end, but the top/mids are a lot smoother to me, which is why I like the GB & 65 speakers I have so much...

 

[notCardio]

I've got one of the Randall ISO cabs too, & I'm really underwhelmed by it myself. You got any pointers for this thing??? I've tried everything I know of to get the boxy-ness out of the sound, & just can't do it. The home-made ISO cab I had sounded pretty damn good IMO, but it was about 3 times as big on the inside as the Randall...

Nope, no tips. But do you still have the plans for your homemade cab? I'd kinda like to give that a shot sometime.

Did you ever try anything but a 57 in the Randall?

 

[minerman]

Did you ever try anything but a 57 in the Randall?

On the Randall, dude, I've tried everything I have: '57, Sennheiser e609, condenser mics, different speakers, different amps, I've put little panels of Roxul Safe-N-Sound in various places in the ISO cab, just everything I have here, & it has a boxy-ness that I can't get rid of....

I use it now to track di's late at night then re-amp through my 4x12 later, which is ok, but I might as well be using software to do this. The only thing about using an amp vs. ampsims, is I feel like I play differently because of the amp, even if it's whisper quiet to silent, dunno, maybe that's just me, but the performance is always different for some reason...

Nope, no tips. But do you still have the plans for your homemade cab? I'd kinda like to give that a shot sometime.

I don't remember the exact dimensions right off, but I made it as wide as possible, while still being able to roll it around in my house, fitting through the doorways (which it just barely did)...Here's a couple pics to give you an idea of what I did:





At first, I just built a big box out of 1" MDF to stick my 1x12 cabs into, with enough room to have about 6" or so of play with the mic closeness to the speaker/grill, & had it full of Roxul panels on all sides. IIRC, this box was like 29" W x 36" D x 36" L, not positive but in the 2nd pic, you can see how big this thing was compared to my guitar...

The second pic is the inner box, which I made out of 3/4" plywood. I made it small enough to fit inside the outer box, with a 3" gap in between the 2 boxes, & put Roxul Safe-N-Sound in between 'em (the inner box also had a lid, but I cut it to fit on the inside of the box, resting on the 2x4 frame, & had a layer of Roxul on the lid too...). So, there was a 3" layer of Roxul between these boxes on all sides, including the lid. I also put as many smaller Roxul panels in the inner box too. I thought I had more pics, but you get the general idea of what I did...

I could probably build another one now since my first one was basically just an experiment that actually did pretty good (after I did the "box in a box" thing), but noise isn't really an issue for me now, so it would be pointless...

The only reason I bought the Randall is where I was living at the time, I had to watch the noise, & thought replacing my home-made ISO with the Randall would save space (which it did), look a hell of a lot better (which it did...lol), & sound as good (which it didn't at all)...


A couple/few tips I can give if you do try to build one though:

Wheels/casters....this is a must if you build this thing like I did. When I moved during my divorce last year, it was all me & my big brother could do to lift this thing into his truck, & not bragging, but neither of us are little guys. Seriously, this thing was super fuckin' heavy man...

The "box in a box" thing actually does cut the noise level quite a bit. Of course, a cranked up amp is never gonna be totally silent, but I could run my 50/100w amps fairly loud, & it sounded like a loud tv...

The Roxul also makes a huge difference, it absorbs a lot of the low-end rumble (which is pretty much what you're trying to kill), & the more you can use, the better.

Try to make sure all cracks & seams are sealed with caulk. I used silicone on the inside of both boxes. The lids need to be snug/tight fitting too. The outer box I made had weather stripping on it, with latches to pull it down tight (you can kinda see the latches in the 2nd pic, sorry, it's a shitty cell phone pic)...

I used carriage bolts & wingnuts on my baffle so I could swap the speaker out pretty quick, this actually worked really well...

Use jackplates for the speaker/mic connections. I didn't use 'em, I just notched out a couple places for my cables to run through, but remember that sound is kinda like water, the more gaps/holes you have, the more noise will leak out...

Here are some pics of an ISO cab another guy built that I used some of his ideas for mine:








He did the "box in a box" but it looks like he didn't use any Roxul in between 'em, I think he used that Green Glue shit, not sure. But you can see in all these pics how big one of these things are. I think the bigger/more space inside the box you have, the better it will sound, but that's just me...Good luck if you do try to build one of these things, IIRC, I had about $150-175 in mine, not counting the speaker, jacks, etc....

Sorry for the long-ass post, but just trying to help you out here man. If you're half-assed handy with a tape measure, saw, etc, you can build one of these things for about half of what the Randall ISO will cost, & IMHO, it will sound 10x better....YMMV

 

[Greg_L]

miner's homemade iso box sounded great. The Randall....not so much.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I've never weighed in on the iso-box thing but now that I see the pic:

If there is no port, then one of the reasons it sounds so boxy is the tiny size of the cab .... I mean TINY!

But you say "Bob (or Steve or whatever the hell your name is ) .... I made the section with the speaker pretty damned big!"
And that's true .... however ... the box in front of the speaker where the mic is loads the speaker just the same as the rear does ...... effectively the actual size of that cab, as far as holding the speaker back goes, is the smaller section of the cab where the mic is.

A speaker doesn't care or know if the air that's compressing and stopping the speaker from free-movement is in front of it or behind it ..... doesn't make any difference.
In fact, it's not uncommon to see big PA cabs with the woofers mounted facing in with the magnets sticking out in the air because it can be easier to maintain them and/or switch out speakers. No back or baffle to remove and no cone or dome for fingers to poke..

So you can't just calculate the proper dimensions for a speaker cab based on the speakers Q and response etc. and put that in the back only.
It would also need to be the same in the mic section.

In this case you (he) could have made the same cab much smaller by making the back section as small as the front. It would sound about the same ..... crappy.

 

[minerman]

Yeah Greg, I couldn't believe the difference between the two...The shitty looking box did a great job, the Randall just sucks IMO...

I've never weighed in on the iso-box thing but now that I see the pic:

If there is no port, then one of the reasons it sounds so boxy is the tiny size of the cab .... I mean TINY!

But you say "Bob (or Steve or whatever the hell your name is ) .... I made the section with the speaker pretty damned big!"
And that's true .... however ... the box in front of the speaker where the mic is loads the speaker just the same as the rear does ...... effectively the actual size of that cab, as far as holding the speaker back goes, is the smaller section of the cab where the mic is.

A speaker doesn't care or know if the air that's compressing and stopping the speaker from free-movement is in front of it or behind it ..... doesn't make any difference.
In fact, it's not uncommon to see big PA cabs with the woofers mounted facing in with the magnets sticking out in the air because it can be easier to maintain them and/or switch out speakers. No back or baffle to remove and no cone or dome for fingers to poke..

So you can't just calculate the proper dimensions for a speaker cab based on the speakers Q and response etc. and put that in the back only.
It would also need to be the same in the mic section.

In this case you (he) could have made the same cab much smaller by making the back section as small as the front. It would sound about the same ..... crappy.

I agree 100% Bob...The Randall ISO I have does have a little port on the baffle:


But I don't think it'd make any difference at all with this thing, like you said, it's so small, basically there's just no way to move any air, it just bounces around stirring up shit....

 

[Lt. Bob]

well ..... most people don't know this .... but the air in a port, say a bass cab for instance, actually acts like a membrane ...... you don't really get air moving between the cab and the room.
The air sits right in the port and the surface of the the air in that port acts the same as a passive radiator. Know what those are?
So even though this cab has a port .... there's no room for it to interface with.

What I've always use as a pseudo iso-box in the past was to stick my amp into a closet that FULL of clothes. Works fairly well.
Now. of course, I have the pleasure of having a wifey who doesn't wake up regardless of volume. So My 5-15 watt amps can be cranked wide open and no prob.
I imagine my bigger amps moght bother her .......... hmmmm, I'll have to try that some night.

 

[minerman]

That's how I started out too Bob, using my closet, but I lined it with rugs, Roxul panels all kinds of shit...lol...

I can get as loud as I wanna here now, as long as it's not after 9 pm of course, then they police would probably show up...

 

[minerman]

Oh yeah, the whole fuckin' reason I went through all that shit with the closet & home-made ISO was my ex-wife, and at that time, the highest wattage amp I had was the T15....I'd like to see her face with the DSL100 running....


I take that back man, I'm so glad I don't have to see her face anymore it's like a new lease on life....

 

[Lt. Bob]

I take that back man, I'm so glad I don't have to see her face anymore it's like a new lease on life....

I know that feeling well!

Fortunately I couldn't have a better wifey than my second and final wife. Deb, my wife of 25 years.
She makes me go out and sit-in with bands if I haven't been playing a ton. "You gotta keep your chops up."

And just a few of the gifts she's given me thru the years ( all before we moved to Florida and became poor of course ), My Headroom delay which is awesome and I'd never even heard of it.
My Rocktron Banshee talkbox was from her and one year she bought me a frickin' Mackie 808M powered mixer so I wouldn't have to carry around my big rack anymore. I still use it for PA to this day.
I mean, what wife has enough brains to figure THAT out?

 

[notCardio]

I think you're getting it backwards here, Lt.. He liked the sound of his homemeade cab, it was the Randall he didn't like. And the Randall does have a port, yet that's the boxy-sounding one.

Minerman, was your cab significantly quieter than the Randall?

 

[Lt. Bob]

I think you're getting it backwards here, Lt.. He liked the sound of his homemeade cab, it was the Randall he didn't like. And the Randall does have a port, yet that's the boxy-sounding one.

Minerman, was your cab significantly quieter than the Randall?

One. He didn't like the sound of his homemade cab.
That's why he bought the Randall. He just liked it even less.
We were all in this thread at the time and the reason he bought the Randall was that he assumed that it would sound better than his homemade box which he was unhappy with.
As it turned out it sounded worse.

Two. I addressed the port issue .... the port in that cab does nothing.
I meant a port to the outside of the cab.
Without that, the effective cab size is the smaller of the two sections.

Of course if you do have a port to the outside then you lose isolation. But regardless, the effective cab size without one if gonna be the smaller of the two sections.

 

[notCardio]

I've got one of the Randall ISO cabs too, & I'm really underwhelmed by it myself. You got any pointers for this thing??? I've tried everything I know of to get the boxy-ness out of the sound, & just can't do it. The home-made ISO cab I had sounded pretty damn good IMO, but it was about 3 times as big on the inside as the Randall...

^^^^

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah Boob, I think maybe you mis-remember minerman's iso cab. He did like his homemade iso cab. He had to get rid of it to move, and he got the Randall POS because it was smaller and nicer, but it ultimately didn't sound as good as his homemade jobby.

Or maybe I mis-remember it. Miner, set us all straight here!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Well...... I don't think I misremember but I don't care enough to look thru hundreds of pages to prove it one way or the other.

But what I remember is that he 'got the tones as good as he thought he would be able to with his homemade box but they were still boxy and he couldn't get that boxiness out of the tones' ..... that's what i remember.
He thought, as did the rest of us, that a pro cab would sound better.
It ended up sounding worse which made his homebuilt sound better at that point but that doesn't change the fact that prior to the Randall he was unable to get the boxiness out of his tones with the homebuilt.

I do remember him saying his homebuilt cab was really big but the Randall ended up being pretty big too.

But I feel like I definitely remember him not being satisfied with the sound of his cab.
I don't remember a single time back then where he said anything like, 'I think my cab sounds pretty good'.










.

 

[notCardio]

OK, if there had been a prior discussion about this, then you could certainly be right. I was just going by what he had just said.