The New Tone Thread

[minerman]

Nice clips Greg, I like the orange clips best out of these, the red, while it's got more gain, is just too much, even for me...Sounds like it just "mushes" out with too much gain, & loses clarity/definition...


So, something I've never done to my DSL100 is check the bias, I've just been banging away on that thing since July....I frequent the Marshall forum, & a member there just bought the exact same amp I have, & it took a giant shit on him...You can read about it in this thread....

Apparently, one of the power tubes took a shit (if you'll look at his pics, the one on the far left is glowing way brighter than the rest), & took some more shit with it...IIRC, he'd had that amp for about 3 weeks...I've had mine for about 8 months, & I'm hoping that if anything were gonna happen to mine, it would have already done so...

Being the paranoid fucker, I finally decided to check out the innards of my DSL100....

Both sides were pretty even on the bias pots at around 77mV, so I'm leaving it alone, why try to fix something that ain't broke, right???

Everything looks ok to me, & all the tubes seemed to be glowing at about the same brightness, so, I'm happy with it....I really just wanted to check the amp out to be honest, because I took it out of it's headshell when I first got it, but haven't did a damn thing to it since, other than play it, which is how it's supposed to be, right???

Here's a few gutshots:

 

[ecc83]

Sorry about the mix up re amps and power ratings (old yer know, lots of meds) but the principle still stands. And I agree Greg, power rating of amps can be all over the shop. There is no standard here in UK for guitar amps but power at visible clipping at nominal mains input is the fairest way. That would be at 230V in here but mains IS allowed to go to 253 volts!

There is of course a difference between which speakers a punter decides to use, and how he uses the amp and the "arse saving" ratings and advice from manufacturers!

The DSL 100? 77mV or 19mV per valves seems a little cold? I would go up to 25mVpv but then if it sounds ok why cook it?

Dave.

 

[minerman]

The DSL 100? 77mV or 19mV per valves seems a little cold? I would go up to 25mVpv but then if it sounds ok why cook it?

Dave.

Well, yes it does seem a tad on the cold side man, but a friend in the Marshall forum suggested 38mV/side for the DSL40, so I asked him about my 100w, & he told me to just double the 38mV, so that's where that came from....Plus, I really don't think raising the bias/making the amp run hotter is going to make that much of a difference sound-wise myself, I may be wrong, but I personally think it sounds pretty damn good like it is...

 

[jonny deep]

I think this deal on the JCM800 is coming together!

On the speakers, I can get a pair of used G12T-75 for less than a single G12-65, which would reduce my paranoia on the power ratings a bit also. Is the good price on these simply because they're lower quality than the 65s?

 

[minerman]

I think this deal on the JCM800 is coming together!

Great man, glad to hear!!!! I hope the deal does come through for ya man!!!

On the speakers, I can get a pair of used G12T-75 for less than a single G12-65, which would reduce my paranoia on the power ratings a bit also. Is the good price on these simply because they're lower quality than the 65s?

Well, they're not really lower quality man, they just don't sound as good as a G12-65 IMO...Everybody rags on the T-75's being shitty speakers, but really, they're ok man...A lot of people say they've got scooped mids, & while that's true to a point, the speakers really have more highs & lows than others making them sound scooped...There have been a lot of famous recordings made using these speakers, they're the "stock" speakers that come in most Marshall cabs...

On their sound/tone, it's really subjective man, I've got 4 of 'em I'm trying to get rid of right now (if you lived over here, I'd let you have 'em really cheap), but it's not because they don't sound good, it's just that I like the other speakers I have more....

Just curious, how much are you getting the speakers for???

 

[Greg_L]

Well, yes it does seem a tad on the cold side man, but a friend in the Marshall forum suggested 38mV/side for the DSL40, so I asked him about my 100w, & he told me to just double the 38mV, so that's where that came from....Plus, I really don't think raising the bias/making the amp run hotter is going to make that much of a difference sound-wise myself, I may be wrong, but I personally think it sounds pretty damn good like it is...

Modern Marshalls tend to be biased on the cold side at the factory because I think they figure most people aren't going to be going in there to start tweaking things on their new amps, and colder bias let's the power tubes live longer. But the sound of colder bias is a little hollow. I set mine a little on the hotter side, and I notice a difference in the sound. The punch and bite is a little more aggressive with hotter bias and the sound clears up. But if you go too hot it gets harsh. I experimented with all of this on my JMP and noticed big differences in the sound. I landed right on about 70% dissipation and I like that sound on all of my amps. You need to know the plate voltage though and do the math. Shooting for some arbitrary number is just taking a shot in the dark.

I think this deal on the JCM800 is coming together!

On the speakers, I can get a pair of used G12T-75 for less than a single G12-65, which would reduce my paranoia on the power ratings a bit also. Is the good price on these simply because they're lower quality than the 65s?

Ditto to what Miner said. 75s are not lower quality by any means. They're the standard stock speaker that has come in most Marshall cabs for decades. They're cheap and easy to get because they're so common, and while their quality is very good there are better sounding speakers out there to fine tune one's sound. I like them okay, but to me their live sound in a room is much better than their recorded sound. I find them harder to mic really well. They're either too dark or too bright. With my G12-65s or Greenbacks I can almost just stick the mic anywhere and be happy with it.

 

[ecc83]

Well, yes it does seem a tad on the cold side man, but a friend in the Marshall forum suggested 38mV/side for the DSL40, so I asked him about my 100w, & he told me to just double the 38mV, so that's where that came from....Plus, I really don't think raising the bias/making the amp run hotter is going to make that much of a difference sound-wise myself, I may be wrong, but I personally think it sounds pretty damn good like it is...

Oh I totally agree! If the amp sound ok as is, leave it alone. There was a "fad" a year or two ago for biasing amp much hotter but I do not think there is much point in going beyond 25mA per 34 (and of course, as Greg says, you need to know Va to make the calculation). Biasing hot can only wear valves out faster* but the increased heat does nothing good especially electrolytics.

*Although! Hi Fi amps run OP valves in class "A" and seem to last for many years. Maybe it is more the beating up we give valves in gitamps that forks them? The heat can't help of course.

Dave.

 

[jonny deep]

Just curious, how much are you getting the speakers for???

This is one of them - £35 + £10 postage. This guy has two on eBay, so would be £90 for the pair:

Celestion G12T-75 16 ohm Speaker | eBay


I think I'll rule out the 75s based on what you guys are saying - I don't want to make it harder to mic my cab!

This company seems to sell most Celstions as well as the WGS speakers Miro was talking about and the Tayden brand I was talking about above:

12 Celestion Guitar Speakers

 

[minerman]

You need to know the plate voltage though and do the math. Shooting for some arbitrary number is just taking a shot in the dark.

Oh I didn't guess on this dude, I did it correctly, unless I'm mistaken, so correct me if I'm wrong....

An EL34 is 25 watts per tube....My plate voltage (pin #3) was 475v...I divided the 25(w) by my plate votage which came to .053 (actually .05263 I just rounded it off), & multiplied that by .7 which came to .037 x2 tubes =.74 mV per side, so the amp is actually biased about right, it's about .76-77mV per side, & was already set at this, I just checked it to see where it was at....Technically, it's set to about 72% dissipation, & came from the factory like this...

I've read about amps being biased on the cold side sounding like shit, but to be honest, I like the way my DSL sounds right now, I just really wanted to make sure the tubes were glowing about the same, & I just checked the bias while I was into it...

I will say the Ceriatone is a little easier to check the bias on, with the bias test points & trim pots that are accessible without taking the amp out of the headshell, but you still have to get your plate voltage, so it's about as long as it is broad...

Jonny: That's actually a decent deal on those 2 speakers, considering the shipping is included...That's about $70 apiece, which isn't too bad man....Don't let me sway you from buying 'em either man, they do sound pretty good, there are just other speakers that I personally like better....If you lived in the USA, I'd make you a really good deal on a couple of 'em (I've got 4 of them I'm trying to trade/sell)...I thought I had a guy to trade a couple of them off, but haven't heard anything back from him in a few days...

 

[Greg_L]

This is one of them - £35 + £10 postage. This guy has two on eBay, so would be £90 for the pair:

Celestion G12T-75 16 ohm Speaker | eBay


I think I'll rule out the 75s based on what you guys are saying - I don't want to make it harder to mic my cab!

This company seems to sell most Celstions as well as the WGS speakers Miro was talking about and the Tayden brand I was talking about above:

12 Celestion Guitar Speakers

You have to consider 4 variables:
1) Price
2) Power handling
3) The tone characteristics of the speakers you choose
4) The final ohm rating of your cab

1) That's your call
2) You're probably gonna want something that can potentially handle 130-150 watts.
3) IMO there are five common well-known Celestions/clones that will sound great with a JCM800 and handle the power when paired in 2x12
a) G12-65
b) Vintage 30
c) G12T-75
d) G12M-65 Creamback - Greenback voicing
e) G12H-75 Creamback - G12H30 voicing

4) The cab's load rating is something to consider if you ever decide to add another cab or plan to swap speakers around.
a) Two 8 ohm speakers - 4 ohm parallel or 16 ohm series - either works, but 4 ohm leaves you stuck only being able to use that one cab at a time.
b) Two 16 ohm speakers - 8 ohm parallel or 32 ohm series (can't do that). So 8 ohm is the only option with two 16 ohm speakers.

The point is that the cab's rating and the speakers you choose could help or limit the potential for adding cabs or speaker swapping later if you ever decide to go there.

 

[jonny deep]

Thanks Greg!

I just watched a video A/Bing the two Creambacks and I really like the G12H-75 (just like I prefer my G12H30 to my Greenback), so I might well pick one of those up. I could pair it with one of the cheap 2nd hand G12T-75s (total cost £145, 150W cab), or maybe push the boat out a little further and get a G12-65 (total cost £205, 130W cab).

I've also been looking at the 80W Celestions, some people rate them, but I suspect them of being metalheads.

 

[Greg_L]

Oh I didn't guess on this dude, I did it correctly, unless I'm mistaken, so correct me if I'm wrong....

An EL34 is 25 watts per tube....My plate voltage (pin #3) was 475v...I divided the 25(w) by my plate votage which came to .053 (actually .05263 I just rounded it off), & multiplied that by .7 which came to .037 x2 tubes =.74 mV per side, so the amp is actually biased about right, it's about .76-77mV per side, & was already set at this, I just checked it to see where it was at....Technically, it's set to about 72% dissipation, & came from the factory like this...

Yup, that's correct, maybe a little hot. But it's definitely right in the 70% range.

 

[Greg_L]

Thanks Greg!

I just watched a video A/Bing the two Creambacks and I really like the G12H-75 (just like I prefer my G12H30 to my Greenback), so I might well pick one of those up. I could pair it with one of the cheap 2nd hand G12T-75s (total cost £145, 150W cab), or maybe push the boat out a little further and get a G12-65 (total cost £205, 130W cab).

Sounds good to me. What about your Vintage 30? You could probably flip that thing. They're generally in high demand. Really any of these speakers we've been talking about would be great. And that's just Celestions. They're a known commodity. Eminence makes good "British" stuff too.

I've also been looking at the 80W Celestions, some people rate them, but I suspect them of being metalheads.

You mean the Classic Lead? I thought about trying some of those, but I can't find them to try in person and they seem stiff and lifeless to me in clips I've heard. I could totally see metal hacks liking them for super high gain stuff. They're kind of like the H/K-100s to me. Those are the worst IMO.

 

[jonny deep]

They're kind of like the H/K-100s to me. Those are the worst IMO.

Saves me asking about those, then!

I'll have a V30, Greenback and G12H30. I'll keep one of them in my 1x12, most likely, and maybe sell the other two.

 

[minerman]

Yup, that's correct, maybe a little hot. But it's definitely right in the 70% range.

Right man, I finally figured out how to bias these amps....lol....

Oh yeah, don't forget that favor I asked yesterday dude.....

Jonny: I know it seems like a lot of $$$ for these speakers dude, but really, you'd be better off getting what you really want, rather than settling for what you can afford right now...I know man, I've been there....FWIW, I used my DSL100 with my home-made ISO cab for months dude, with a single 25w Greenback in it...I kept it on the 50w setting, & really watched my volume knob on the amp, but never fried my speaker dude....Just sayin'...You can always use an od pedal for more dirt so you don't blow your speakers man...

If it were me, knowing what I know now about these speakers, I'd go ahead & get the G12-65 Jonny, it'd mix great with your G12H, & the JCM800...There's a reason I have 4 of those T-75's sitting in boxes right now....

 

[Greg_L]

Oh yeah, don't forget that favor I asked yesterday dude.....

Shit! Yup, see, I told ya to remind me. It just finished sleeting eek down here. I gotta go outside and fix a stupid car. I'll get it to you later. Keep bugging me.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I've also been looking at the 80W Celestions, some people rate them, but I suspect them of being metalheads.

I think those are basically what they make for Mesa ..... the Mesa Celestion is a MC-90 ...... it's a GREAT speaker! So if they're like MC 80s or something like that I believe they're very similar.

 

[minerman]

Shit! Yup, see, I told ya to remind me. It just finished sleeting eek down here. I gotta go outside and fix a stupid car. I'll get it to you later. Keep bugging me.

Lol....no biggie dude....you'll get to it when you get to it...no hurry....

I meant to ask you if you got any shitty weather where you're at....We got about 8" of snow here yesterday...I don't mind the snow, it's all the dumb-ass drivers out there you have to watch when you get out in shit like this...

 

[jonny deep]

Quiet round here last night!

It's my birthday today. I'll be celebrating with a lecture then studying in the library all day. Probably go out for tea with my family later on. Maybe I'll order some speakers for the JCM800 I'm most likely getting on Friday.

 

[minerman]

It gets quiet here from time to time Jonny....I think with all the noise we make with our amps, we all need a break once in a while....


Happy Birthday!!!!!!

Hope you have a good B-Day, & get that amp dude!!!!

Have you decided on any speakers yet???