The New Tone Thread

[Lt. Bob]

I'm so done with my little metal experiment, so here's a quickie back to my usual self to cleanse the palate and get that shit our of my system.

I always just adore that 'chunk' you get ..... the Marshall 'bonk' .... just wonderful sounding.
How I wish I had a gig where i needed that sound.

 

[Greg_L]

Thanks dude, but it'll be tomorrow, as it's too late for the big amps now...I'm on the e-drum kick right now...lol....To be honest, I'm lovin' these things man, wish I'd bought a set long ago...Of course, I'm not a drummer, but I have improved a lot since I got 'em (I think this Friday will be 2 weeks...), & plan on gettin' better...

I noticed that about the e609 too, & had thought about swappin' 'em around, but got behind the e-drums, & that was that....

Dude, I actually looked up that song/clip you posted, & to me, the tone you posted is pretty damn close...I think yours is actually better, but I did listen to a YouTube clip, & who knows what kind of shit the audio for that has been through...

Back to the e-kit, I kinda wish I'd gotten a better kit, with a better hi-hat controller & another cymbal, but, live & learn I suppose...For a cheap-ass, entry-level kit, these things are great....having a blast over here, I might ride out the unemployment thing for the full 6 months...hahaha

Lol. You're already gassing for more e-drums. Can you expand that thing?

I always just adore that 'chunk' you get ..... the Marshall 'bonk' .... just wonderful sounding.
How I wish I had a gig where i needed that sound.

Thanks Boobala! I am quite happy with my equipment and the the sounds they make. Roll your big ampeg out to a gig you don't care about and melt some faces!

 

[minerman]

Lol. You're already gassing for more e-drums. Can you expand that thing?

Unfortunately no dude...that's why I said I should've gotten a higher-end/more expensive kit...The module's outputs are all filled up, with no way to add to it...If the brain had more outputs, I could add more pads/cymbals whatever...But, for what I paid for it, it's great man...Some of the high-end Roland kits are fuckin' outrageous...Almost 5 grand for an e-kit....That's just a Roland too, there's more out there (like 2-Box) that has the ability to load Superior Drummer into the module/brain, but those are high-dollar too....

I'm pretty happy with my shitty little DTX400 to be honest, it's a pretty nice little kit, especially for $500 new...

I'm still learning not only how to play, but learning how to set the brain/module up to trigger the samples that's best for me...

I've already tracked the biggest part of about 3-4 songs, & I've only had 'em a couple weeks...Hand-programming, I might've gotten one song finished (drum-wise), maybe...But, I'm uber-picky (too picky) too....

The things I'm working on are mainly getting them to trigger fairly accurately (it's not that they don't, I bet a good/decent drummer could sit down with 'em & not have any issues at all, this is due to me not being a drummer, it's really nothing to do with the kit itself), without maxing out the velocities on the hits....Yes, I swarp the fuck out of 'em.....

I'm also probably gonna have to re-arrange the music room to have the kit closer to the monitor....I've got a wireless mouse, but my eyesight ain't what it used to be, & it's hard to see the little shit on the screen from 8-10' away....Or, I could just get a bigger monitor, I've saw tv's with the ability to use with a pc really cheap lately, IIRC, a 32" for like $130-140...That's almost what I paid for this little 17-18" monitor I use right now...

It never ends, does it????


Bob's right too dude, your guitar tones are always stellar...I'm trying to catch up, & have made some leaps/bounds the last year or so, but again, your guitars always sound great dude.....

 

[Tadpui]

Greg,
Good to hear you back to your wheelhouse. I like most everything about that tone, but there's something that sounds like a bit of comb filtering is happening. Is 2" enough space from the speaker to allow for some room reflections to interfere? I dunno. With that kind of SPL in a room, I wouldn't doubt that even a close-mic dynamic could pick up some room reflections. Nits aside, that head + cab is something to behold.

And to add a drummer's timing to a downstroked riff...I wish I could keep as good of time as that.

Minerman,
I actually like that tone a lot. There's some fizz in the high end like Greg mentioned, but I think that it would work in a mix. Friggin chunky, I love that. You all have pushed me to realize that some of the high-freq fizz is actually natural for an amp, and from what I've found lately a little bit of it is essential to a guitar sitting in a mix and still being present. I fought that for years, dialing in duller and duller tones where I had little or no high end just to combat the grain that the treble sends through a preamp section. I have seen the light

And yeah, that DTX400 has some frustrations with lack of expansion. I've already been where you're at, wanting a 2nd crash and a hi-hat that would respond to half-open positions. I'm sure you've already explored what it would take to actually make that happen and holy shit that gets expensive very quickly. Hell, the 3-zone snare upgrade is $350 on its own! And I'm still not sure if a better hihat pedal would actually work with this kit's brain...I'm not sure if the open/closed hihat is a function of the pedal or the brain. But I've learned to live with the limitations of a $500 e-kit, and honestly I still love it a year later. I just got the mallets/brushes/rods kit for SD2 and I've been having fun with that.

 

[rayc]

To Greg a Dead Boys riff via a monster Marshall is sorbet for the audio soul.
I like the sound of the riff & the chugga chunk does sound rather good.

 

[minerman]

Is 2" enough space from the speaker to allow for some room reflections to interfere? I dunno. With that kind of SPL in a room, I wouldn't doubt that even a close-mic dynamic could pick up some room reflections.

I honestly think at my new house, I'm getting room reflections in my guitar tones....I can hear 'em, I've asked here if you guys can, but generally the answer is no...The whole house is painted sheetrock, which is very reflective to begin with, the room I record in is small (10'x10'), & the high volume/SPL's bounce all over the place....I'll try to dig up some tones from the last place I was living & post them for comparison...I can hear a difference myself....It's very subtle, but it's there...

This is a big reason I'm looking into making some acoustic panels, not just for mixing, but to deaden the room down for tracking too....

Minerman,
I actually like that tone a lot. There's some fizz in the high end like Greg mentioned, but I think that it would work in a mix. Friggin chunky, I love that. You all have pushed me to realize that some of the high-freq fizz is actually natural for an amp, and from what I've found lately a little bit of it is essential to a guitar sitting in a mix and still being present. I fought that for years, dialing in duller and duller tones where I had little or no high end just to combat the grain that the treble sends through a preamp section. I have seen the light

Thanks dude, you know, I used ampsims for years, & I'd always eq the shit out of my tracks, low-passing them, trying to kill the fizz, then trying to add clarity with a high-shelf...lol...I did get some decent results, but nothing like I get with these real amps, at all...close, but no cigar....hahaha...I've finally realized that real amps have fizz too...lol

The Chupa is a very different amp than the DSL...It is grainy sounding when using the era switch on anything but plexi mode, & even in plexi mode, it's grainy using the bright switches...I'm still learning how to dial it in too, there's a lot of tones to be had with that amp, I just need to tweak/experiment to get the best out of it....It seems to take od pedals really good too, I was running the Bogner Red through it a few days ago, & it sounded awesome, I just didn't have my recording gear up here yet, so I'll have to do that in a day or two to let you guys hear that...I love this amp though, even with the master on about 3-4, with the gain(s) up a bit, it's got sustain from hell, & controlled feedback for days....

The DSL is a straight-ahead rock-n-roll amp IMO, the only thing I don't like is the shared eq, but it's really not an issue for me, someone using it live might have issues, but again, for recording, it's not a big deal...Clean is great, almost Fender-y, but it will break up with the gain cranked....Green crunch is great for a rhythm sound, & boosted (with a SD-1 for example), it's almost got a JCM 800 sound...Red OD1 is my favorite on this amp, plenty of gain for hard rock tones...OD2 has even more gain, & it's voiced a little different, but I really haven't messed with it that much...

I'm really happy with my amp/cab setup right now, I've got 4 good amps (2 pretty decent little ones, & 2 awesome full-sized), with 5 different speaker choices, along with 5 different mics to choose from.....

And yeah, that DTX400 has some frustrations with lack of expansion. I've already been where you're at, wanting a 2nd crash and a hi-hat that would respond to half-open positions. I'm sure you've already explored what it would take to actually make that happen and holy shit that gets expensive very quickly. Hell, the 3-zone snare upgrade is $350 on its own! And I'm still not sure if a better hihat pedal would actually work with this kit's brain...I'm not sure if the open/closed hihat is a function of the pedal or the brain. But I've learned to live with the limitations of a $500 e-kit, and honestly I still love it a year later. I just got the mallets/brushes/rods kit for SD2 and I've been having fun with that.

Yeah dude, the DTX400 is pretty limited compared to other (and more expensive) e-kits, but you can use another hi-hat pedal/contoller with it that would allow closed, open, & half-open sounds to be triggered. With the stock pedal, it's only open or closed (but you know that...you're a big reason I bought this kit dude...)...I think the Yamaha HH65 pedal is about $80....

Something I can suggest for using the DTX with Superior Drummer is to map a couple different articulations for the hi-hat, say a closed tip & an open 1/2 instead of the fully open articulation. Just depends on the song, but it can be done using the "learn" button in Superior....Just be just to click "edit articulation only" above the "learn" button though....Lots of ways to do the midi thing dude, I may end up buying the other hh pedal myself eventually, but for now, what I've got will work...

I've been thinking about trying to mod my crash cymbal holder to put it more in the center of the rack/kit, that would actually help my playing a little (I need all the help I can get...hahaha)...Same thing with the 2 toms, but not sure how I'd go about doing that...I could get a cheap cymbal stand, or maybe even use a mic boom arm for the cymbal...Again, not sure how to go about doing it, but I'll figure it out...If not, I can just keep doing what I've been doing the past couple weeks, going into the piano roll/midi editor & fixing my fuck-ups.....


Sorry for the long-ass post, but I get on a roll & can't stop...

One more thing before I go, I've went completely bat-shit, hillbilly-psycho crazy buying up gear the last 8 months or so, & I've got a killer little setup...I've actually got so much gear in so little time, I haven't really sat down & learned all of it properly...but it feels good to have all this shit, I've been wanting all this basically all my life......

 

[Greg_L]

Unfortunately no dude...that's why I said I should've gotten a higher-end/more expensive kit...The module's outputs are all filled up, with no way to add to it...If the brain had more outputs, I could add more pads/cymbals whatever...But, for what I paid for it, it's great man...Some of the high-end Roland kits are fuckin' outrageous...Almost 5 grand for an e-kit....That's just a Roland too, there's more out there (like 2-Box) that has the ability to load Superior Drummer into the module/brain, but those are high-dollar too....

I'm pretty happy with my shitty little DTX400 to be honest, it's a pretty nice little kit, especially for $500 new...


Bob's right too dude, your guitar tones are always stellar...I'm trying to catch up, & have made some leaps/bounds the last year or so, but again, your guitars always sound great dude.....

Thanks buddy.

Maybe consider this for your drums.....maybe play your basic beats that you want and enhance it by drawing in extra stuff that you can't do with your limited e-kit? is that an option? I'm a big believer in knowing what you're going to play before you record it. But I know I might take that for granted being a drummer. I can hear what I want to do in my head and just sit down and play it. But if you can kind of get into that mindset maybe you can play your parts while consciously leaving space for extra shit you might wanna add in there later. Is that a possibility?

Greg,
Good to hear you back to your wheelhouse. I like most everything about that tone, but there's something that sounds like a bit of comb filtering is happening. Is 2" enough space from the speaker to allow for some room reflections to interfere? I dunno. With that kind of SPL in a room, I wouldn't doubt that even a close-mic dynamic could pick up some room reflections. Nits aside, that head + cab is something to behold.

And to add a drummer's timing to a downstroked riff...I wish I could keep as good of time as that.

Thanks dude. It's possible there may be some comb filtering with the little bit of mic space and loudness of this thing, but I'm not really pickup on it, or maybe I just don't care. I'm really pretty happy with that sound and I'd drop it into a Greg-mix no problem. But it could be there. If there's something there I'd bet it's the other cab. I had two cabs running, and that second cab is straddling a corner at 45 degrees right next to the mic'd cab. That second cab might be contributing to the mic on the first cab. My idea was to put a mic in the general spot where the two cab soundbeams come together, about 5 feet away. I just haven't done it yet. Maybe today. I'm not a big room mic kind of guy, but it's something I want to experiment with more.

You all have pushed me to realize that some of the high-freq fizz is actually natural for an amp, and from what I've found lately a little bit of it is essential to a guitar sitting in a mix and still being present. I fought that for years, dialing in duller and duller tones where I had little or no high end just to combat the grain that the treble sends through a preamp section. I have seen the light

It's a fine line between clarity and fizz. It's hard to walk that line sometimes - especially as the gain goes up. Most overdriven guitar tones have some degree of fizz in them. Some mics are more sensitive to the fizz than others. And naturally the closer you are to the center of the speaker, the potential for fizz goes up. I think the best way to combat fizz is to turn the gain down and turn the volume up. That fucking fixes everything almost every time. What I think one needs to be careful of is overanalyzing a raw guitar recording. All that really matters is how it sounds in a mix. This is all a lot of fun and games, posting tones and shit, but a plain guitar track by itself is just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

For me, I know that the way I generally mix and for the sounds I like, I can get away with a lot of low mids in my guitar tracks. I pan my guitar tracks hard left and right, and I don't know if it's pan law or leaving space in the middle or whatever, but chunky tracks out to the sides all by themselves don't interfere with my mix and they sound big with minimal effort. That's why I don't really believe in layering and all that bullshit. You want big guitar tracks? Record big guitar sounds. It's a very simple concept, but it's not as simple to execute.

I read posts from people in here layering 5, 6, 7 guitar tracks and I just have to shake my head. If you can't record one good track with good results, piling up a bunch of bad tracks isn't going to help.

To Greg a Dead Boys riff via a monster Marshall is sorbet for the audio soul.
I like the sound of the riff & the chugga chunk does sound rather good.

Thanks Ray. I got to hang out with a Cheetah Chrome a few times back in the 90s. He was pretty nice to me. Probably because I didn't tell him that they were a ridiculous joke compared to the Ramones.

I honestly think at my new house, I'm getting room reflections in my guitar tones....

Your cab is wedged in a corner from what I remember in your pics. That's definitely not optimal, even with a close mic. Get that thing along a flat wall pointing out into the long part of the room if you can.

 

[JDOD]

Glad the main thread is back up and running lads.

Was thinking, really I was, when I double track guitars I usually just track twice with an identical tone. I am really happy with my grunge tone (more so now I am moved in and amped up) but do you think it would be better if I used two slightly different tones on the guitar?

I am currently working away as you guys know and was thinking the time in hotels would be good for song writing. Anyone got experience of Amplitube for iPad? I have just got an iPad and figured I could write shit loads while I am here and record on the weekends. What's Amplitube like? Anyone know if I could get Reaper on the pad with my current Reaper license to record my writing so I don't forget it and post some tones.

On the subject of tones, Arctic Monkeys were just on in the pub I am staying at. They have a great punk tone and use really mild distortion. It's really nice to here. Greg, do you know Arctic Monkeys? You'd probably like them.

Jd

 

[JDOD]

Miner, glad your having fun and playing tunes, mate. Enjoy this time. I had a great 3 weeks unemployed. Really concentrated on music - it kept me sane!

 

[jonny deep]

Im pretty sure you can't get Reaper for the iPad, but you could use Garageband for simple idea recording (and even some mixing with the built in plugins).

 

[minerman]

Thanks buddy.

Maybe consider this for your drums.....maybe play your basic beats that you want and enhance it by drawing in extra stuff that you can't do with your limited e-kit? is that an option? I'm a big believer in knowing what you're going to play before you record it. But I know I might take that for granted being a drummer. I can hear what I want to do in my head and just sit down and play it. But if you can kind of get into that mindset maybe you can play your parts while consciously leaving space for extra shit you might wanna add in there later. Is that a possibility?

Yeah dude, that's exactly what I've been doing....Like on the cover I sent you a few days ago, my kit will only trigger open or closed hi-hat sounds, I had to move the hits that were in between to make it sound "right"...There are places I had to add another crash cymbal (where I thought it would sound good to have 2 crashes at once), because my kit only has one crash...But yeah, that's pretty much how I've been doing it...Honestly, the midi thing is the very best way for me to record my drums...They won't ever sound 100% real, & I know that, but me playing the e-kit gets me a lot closer, a hell of a lot faster than hand programming ever would..

It's possible there may be some comb filtering with the little bit of mic space and loudness of this thing, but I'm not really pickup on it, or maybe I just don't care. I'm really pretty happy with that sound and I'd drop it into a Greg-mix no problem. But it could be there. If there's something there I'd bet it's the other cab. I had two cabs running, and that second cab is straddling a corner at 45 degrees right next to the mic'd cab. That second cab might be contributing to the mic on the first cab. My idea was to put a mic in the general spot where the two cab soundbeams come together, about 5 feet away. I just haven't done it yet. Maybe today. I'm not a big room mic kind of guy, but it's something I want to experiment with more.

The only thing I'd have a problem with is the phase of the 2 mics dude...I can get close-mics in phase pretty good, because they're stuck right on the cab, I just put them the same distance from the speaker/cab, but a room mic, whenever I've tried it, sounds like shit....Maybe I need to practice up on that....

It's a fine line between clarity and fizz. It's hard to walk that line sometimes - especially as the gain goes up. Most overdriven guitar tones have some degree of fizz in them. Some mics are more sensitive to the fizz than others. And naturally the closer you are to the center of the speaker, the potential for fizz goes up. I think the best way to combat fizz is to turn the gain down and turn the volume up. That fucking fixes everything almost every time. What I think one needs to be careful of is overanalyzing a raw guitar recording. All that really matters is how it sounds in a mix. This is all a lot of fun and games, posting tones and shit, but a plain guitar track by itself is just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

For the longest time, I thought only ampsims had fizz (I'd never recorded a real amp up until about 2-3 years ago...whenever I got the Blackstar HT-5), & I'd eq the fuck out of my tracks, low-pass the fizz out, then try to put clarity back in with a high shelf...Sometimes it sounded ok, sometimes not, but I did learn quite a bit about the different frequencies, & what they do...

I agree about turning the gain down, & the volume up, but some of my stuff just doesn't sound right with lower-gain tones, that's why I keep posting tones that aren't all that great, I'm trying to figure out how to get the high-gain sounds for my songs, which are a little different than what you go for 99% of the time dude....

For me, I know that the way I generally mix and for the sounds I like, I can get away with a lot of low mids in my guitar tracks. I pan my guitar tracks hard left and right, and I don't know if it's pan law or leaving space in the middle or whatever, but chunky tracks out to the sides all by themselves don't interfere with my mix and they sound big with minimal effort. That's why I don't really believe in layering and all that bullshit. You want big guitar tracks? Record big guitar sounds. It's a very simple concept, but it's not as simple to execute.

It does sound pretty simple, until you roll up you sleeves & try it....Something I've been trying is not to have my guitars panned out 100% L/R....I've been trying to have the max about 90%, then if there are other guitars, pan them in like 75% L/R...I know a lot of classic albums have the guitars panned out all the way, but it sounds more natural to me to have 'em in panned in just a little...

I read posts from people in here layering 5, 6, 7 guitar tracks and I just have to shake my head. If you can't record one good track with good results, piling up a bunch of bad tracks isn't going to help.

Exactly, I'm guilty of this myself too, although I have gotten some decent results layering with ampsims....My real amps, not so much, but I'm still working on that too...

Your cab is wedged in a corner from what I remember in your pics. That's definitely not optimal, even with a close mic. Get that thing along a flat wall pointing out into the long part of the room if you can.

I could re-arrange the room, but really, there's no long part, it's basically a 10' x 10' cube....Eventually, when I re-model/knock the wall between these 2 rooms out, that'll help a lot, but for now, I have to make due with what I have...Room treatment dude, I'm gonna make some panels out of the Roxul left over from the ISO cab build....Should help some, but how much, I won't know until I try it....


JDOD: Yeah dude, it feels good to lay on my ass, but it's gonna be short lived...I will have to go back to work before too long...

 

[Lt. Bob]

I could re-arrange the room, but really, there's no long part, it's basically a 10' x 10' cube...

regardless I'd get it out of the corner.
To have any clarity in the bottom end, the corner is the absolute worst place to put it.

 

[JDOD]

I never pan my guitars hard LR. The most I usually go for is about 50% LR. Basically I go just either side of the drum kit with the bass and the kick down the middle.

 

[Greg_L]

They have a great punk tone and use really mild distortion. It's really nice to here. Greg, do you know Arctic Monkeys? You'd probably like them.

Jd

Lol, no Greg doesn't. I don't know what kind of "punk tone" they have, but most of their stuff sounds like indie-dance-pop to me.

 

[JDOD]

Lol, they're just whinging northerners. Like all northerners.

 

[minerman]

Ok, here's a pretty lame attempt at an AC-DC tone...2 mics (I swapped their positions, the '57 for the highs, & the 609 for the lows), with some reverb added in the daw...Other than the 'verb, nothing on these tracks (eq or anything)....


LP > Chupa > Greenback > '57/e609 > daw/reverb


Resonance: 1
Presence: 4
Bass: 8
Mid: 4
Treble: 6-7
Master: 7-8
Gain 2: 1-2
Gain 1: 5
Era: 80's
Bright 2: L
Bright 1: C
Focus: Off

Shoot For Tone

I think it sounds pretty good, of course, it's not an Angus/Malcolm tone, but could be used in a mix for a hard-rock sound IMO....

Just me fucking around this evening, lemme know what you guys think.....

 

[Greg_L]

Yup, sounds good to me. That mic blend sounds better. It's a little thick in the low mids, but that might just be my ears after playing the Plexi today. I have some solos (gasp) I need to tighten up on for a gig coming up!

 

[minerman]

Thanks dude...here's another attempt, this time in plexi mode, with no reverb or anything at all in the daw, exact same mic positons...I did bump the gain up, & added some high end (the bright switches add high-end sizzle....this is where my fizz/harshness is coming from....)...To me, this clip sounds more like yours, as far as the character of the amp....


LP > Chupa > Greenback > '57/e609


Resonance: 0
Presence: 5
Bass: 8
Mid: 4
Treble: 8
Master: 8
Gain 2: 2
Gain 1: 8-9
Era: Plexi
Bright 2: C
Bright 1: C
Focus: Off

Plexi To Thrill

I can say the Chupa has a lot more mids than the DSL, & the speakers I'm using don't have near the bottom end as the old T-75's did, but it's still chunky & fat sounding...

I'm getting better at the 2-mic thing (close mics anyway...lol) & dialing this amp in for what I'm after...It's funny how just the flip of one of these switches make it sound like a totally different amp...It seems to record the best in plexi mode, but damn if I don't like the gain the Era switch adds...I just need to learn to control the high end when I'm using it with the switches...

 

[minerman]

Ok, last clip of the night as it's getting late, & I'm gonna go eat a bite, & watch "Dracula Untold" on dvd....Been wanting to see that movie since I came out, hope it's worth a fuck...hahaha

LP > Chupa > Greenback > '57/e609 (same mic position as all before, this one seems to work, so I'm gonna leave it alone...lol)


Resonance: 0
Presence: 4
Bass: 4
Mid: 7
Treble: 7
Master: 9
Gain 2: 8-9
Gain 1: 3
Era: Modern
Bright 2: R
Bright 1: C
Focus: Off

Hair Metal Tone

Hair Metal Tone with 'verb

I used the "Modern" era for these clips, & had to turn the pre-amp gain on my interface up quite a bit...Like I've mentioned before, there's quite a volume difference between the different modes, for me, it's not an issue, but for someone playing live, it could be a big one...

Lemme know what you guys think, be back in a few hours after I stuff my face & watch the movie....

 

[Lt. Bob]

those sound good to me man ..... way better rock tones than anything I ever get.