The New Tone Thread

[antichef]

I'm going to catch up on listening when I get home.

Yeah I stress about transformers, too - especially the old ones. The new ones are expensive, but hopefully replaceable.

Greg you just reminded me of something weird - I bought my 2204 new in the mid 80s, and I played along side other guys who had 2203s and 2204s, and we always thought mine sounded different (a lot different that is, they each sound at least a little different from one another) - early on without knowing *at all* what I was doing, I had swapped the stock 6550s for EL34s - this without any of the additional changes that would have been required.

Much more recently, my amp stopped working because the weight of the circuit board eventually cracked the solder joints for the pots on the front - (this is the reason why vertical input amps of that era are better than the slightly later horizontal input versions like mine - the vertical input ones don't have this stuff directly soldered to the circuit board, and so this problem doesn't happen) and so I brought it to a local guy who got it working again -- when I got it back, he commented that it was the only USA distributed Marshall he had ever seen that was set up for EL34s in the factory. Dumb luck on my part

 

[JDOD]

Les Paul Traditional - Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall JMP 2204
Presence - 3
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 5
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 7
Marshall 1960B - Vintage 30 - single SM57 on axis, on grill, just outside dustcap (same as previous clip)
No EQ or effects in DAW
Ace of Slop 2

That sounds fucking great! You can tell it was really loud - can just about hear you screaming in the gaps!

 

[Greg_L]

I'm going to catch up on listening when I get home.

Yeah I stress about transformers, too - especially the old ones. The new ones are expensive, but hopefully replaceable.

Greg you just reminded me of something weird - I bought my 2204 new in the mid 80s, and I played along side other guys who had 2203s and 2204s, and we always thought mine sounded different (a lot different that is, they each sound at least a little different from one another) - early on without knowing *at all* what I was doing, I had swapped the stock 6550s for EL34s - this without any of the additional changes that would have been required.

Much more recently, my amp stopped working because the weight of the circuit board eventually cracked the solder joints for the pots on the front - (this is the reason why vertical input amps of that era are better than the slightly later horizontal input versions like mine - the vertical input ones don't have this stuff directly soldered to the circuit board, and so this problem doesn't happen) and so I brought it to a local guy who got it working again -- when I got it back, he commented that it was the only USA distributed Marshall he had ever seen that was set up for EL34s in the factory. Dumb luck on my part

Haha, cool. So your amp was designed for EL34s and you got it with 6550s? That's weird. You might wanna verify that though. By the time the horizontal input 800s came into being it's possible that they had made the switch back to EL34s for the US. I don't know. Did you do that tube swap before or after you determined your amp sounded different from the others?

 

[ShanPeyton]

Well, I've been back inside my JMP 2204, and hopefully it's in it's final version after tweaks. You see, what had happened was, I think all I needed to do was fix the 6550 > EL34 conversion that was previously done half-assedly. In a nutshell, they didn't change all the resistors that needed changing. And some of my other tweaks were just too much. So I've got one cap across V1 cathode, a proper EL34 conversion, a little hotter bias, moved the neg feedback to the 8 ohm tap, fresh electrolytics, and the rest is proper bone stock 1979 JMP 2204. This thing kills now. Raw, biting, aggressive. Chords ring big, low end is tight and controlled, single notes pop and jump cleanly. It's never sounded this good. I know I keep saying that, but every little thing keeps making it better.

Les Paul Traditional - Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall JMP 2204
Presence - 3
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 5
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 7
Marshall 1960B - Vintage 30 - single SM57 on axis, on grill, just outside dustcap (same as previous clip)
No EQ or effects in DAW
Ace of Slop 2

Dude. Them open chords! Deadly.

High five on the vocal performance. Nailed it.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Here's a nice heavy biting tone:
https://soundcloud.com/brother-number-one/time-for-a-change
Can't wait to unpack my Washburn and have it there waiting for when I am in this mood!

I liked that!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Ace2

nice ....... but I'd want just a touch more bottom .... I mean for live use of course.

 

[Greg_L]

That sounds fucking great! You can tell it was really loud - can just about hear you screaming in the gaps!

Dude. Them open chords! Deadly.

High five on the vocal performance. Nailed it.

Ace2

nice ....... but I'd want just a touch more bottom .... I mean for live use of course.

Thanks dudes.

Lt Boobalicious, the bottom is here in the room. Lol. It's earth shaking. I'm using that stupid Audix Cab Grabber mic clamp that I bitched about earlier in this thread, because I'm determined to make that thing useful, but it puts the mic pretty close to the middle of the speaker on a B cab. I need to get one of those bendy necks for it, but those things always flop around. I'm really trying to see if this thing is worth taking out live and having it be a semi-permanent part of my rig now that I'm all rock star and shit.

 

[miroslav]

Ace of Slop 2

All around nice Rock guitar tone.

If I was going to change anything at all AFA dailing it in some more with the components...my own personal taste would maybe want it just a *touch* more creamy VS edgy...but only if that was going to be like my main go to amp....otherwise as just another amp tone in the arsenal, like I said, really nice all around Rock tone that would work for a ton of shit.


Hey...on another note....
I've been looking at this thread for almost 3 years now...and maybe the mods can change the title and just call it:
"The Tone Thread"
...and drop the "New"... 'cuz it's anything but new.

 

[Greg_L]

All around nice Rock guitar tone.

If I was going to change anything at all AFA dailing it in some more with the components...my own personal taste would maybe want it just a *touch* more creamy VS edgy...but only if that was going to be like my main go to amp....otherwise as just another amp tone in the arsenal, like I said, really nice all around Rock tone that would work for a ton of shit.

Thanks miro! I do know what you mean. I could knock that edge off with the tone knob on the guitar. That Vintage 30 isn't really doing it any favors either. That speaker has never paired with this amp very well. But as I'm sure you know, that creamy sound isn't really my thing. It's awesome for sure, but I don't ever utilize that kind of tone. This 2204 has really transformed though into damn near the exact kind of sound I like - raw with an aggressive midrange without sounding "metal". Lol. I almost always use AC/DC type sounds as my benchmark. A tone goal. And then kick that kind of sound up a notch. It works for me.

Hey...on another note....
I've been looking at this thread for almost 3 years now...and maybe the mods can change the title and just call it:
"The Tone Thread"
...and drop the "New"... 'cuz it's anything but new.

Ha yeah, and it's nice to see so much fresh action lately. Best thread at HR!

And....somewhere in this 400+ page beast there's probably some sprinklings of good information.

 

[antichef]

Here's a nice heavy biting tone:
https://soundcloud.com/brother-number-one/time-for-a-change
Can't wait to unpack my Washburn and have it there waiting for when I am in this mood!

I like the distorted tone - I've been trying for a more modern sound recently. (Maybe sacrilege, especially given that I'm a Marshall freak myself, but I've been playing an Orange amp at all my recent gigs, but playing cleaner than your clip.) I can very much get into this low mid-heavy crunch and compressed tone. I pretty much tried to get my Marshall to sound just like that with an overdrive pedal for a long time. When you were playing single notes, the decay sounded a little uneven and fell off quickly - maybe that was intentional - was there a gate or some AD/DA conversion or something going on?

Haha, cool. So your amp was designed for EL34s and you got it with 6550s? That's weird. You might wanna verify that though. By the time the horizontal input 800s came into being it's possible that they had made the switch back to EL34s for the US. I don't know. Did you do that tube swap before or after you determined your amp sounded different from the others?

Dude - we're talking about the duskiness of ~30 year old memories, but yes, it definitely had 6650s, and I took them out immediately because I had to have cool "Groove Tubes" that somebody told me about. I remember looking at the fat 6650s later and wondering why they looked so different from the ones I put in -- I only knew the replacements as Groove Tubes that had the right pins to go in the sockets in my amp, wasn't really conscious of the EL34 designation -- I had to mostly focus on bussing a lot of tables at the restaurant where I worked so I could pay back the loan I took out for the amp (and much later, learning that the fat ones were 6650s and the skinny ones were EL34s). But anyway our musings about tone definitely came when there were EL34s in it. I never gave the setup of the amp a single thought until the tech told me about what he saw when he fixed the crackpot issue a couple of years ago. I can't do much to verify it any further except maybe take it to another tech.

Well, I've been back inside my JMP 2204, and hopefully it's in it's final version after tweaks. You see, what had happened was, I think all I needed to do was fix the 6550 > EL34 conversion that was previously done half-assedly. In a nutshell, they didn't change all the resistors that needed changing. And some of my other tweaks were just too much. So I've got one cap across V1 cathode, a proper EL34 conversion, a little hotter bias, moved the neg feedback to the 8 ohm tap, fresh electrolytics, and the rest is proper bone stock 1979 JMP 2204. This thing kills now. Raw, biting, aggressive. Chords ring big, low end is tight and controlled, single notes pop and jump cleanly. It's never sounded this good. I know I keep saying that, but every little thing keeps making it better.

You clearly now know probably more than I will ever know about the 2204 circuit. Maybe you can have a look at my amp

Les Paul Traditional - Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall JMP 2204
Presence - 3
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 5
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 7
Marshall 1960B - Vintage 30 - single SM57 on axis, on grill, just outside dustcap (same as previous clip)
No EQ or effects in DAW
Ace of Slop 2

That sound frgS8#n fantastic, it really does. If you want to take the edge off (but why would you?), maybe notch down the volume on the guitar a little bit rather than the tone - I mean go from 10 to 9.something.

 

[Tadpui]

Well, I've been back inside my JMP 2204, and hopefully it's in it's final version after tweaks. You see, what had happened was, I think all I needed to do was fix the 6550 > EL34 conversion that was previously done half-assedly. In a nutshell, they didn't change all the resistors that needed changing. And some of my other tweaks were just too much. So I've got one cap across V1 cathode, a proper EL34 conversion, a little hotter bias, moved the neg feedback to the 8 ohm tap, fresh electrolytics, and the rest is proper bone stock 1979 JMP 2204. This thing kills now. Raw, biting, aggressive. Chords ring big, low end is tight and controlled, single notes pop and jump cleanly. It's never sounded this good. I know I keep saying that, but every little thing keeps making it better.

Les Paul Traditional - Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall JMP 2204
Presence - 3
Bass - 7
Mid - 7
Treb - 5
Preamp vol - 7
Master vol - 7
Marshall 1960B - Vintage 30 - single SM57 on axis, on grill, just outside dustcap (same as previous clip)
No EQ or effects in DAW
Ace of Slop 2

I literally LOL'd at the feint background screaming in the breaks

But holy fuck that sounds pretty bad ass man. No, let me remove that qualifier...it's just plain bad ass. No "pretty" about it. I was all happy when I plugged in to my DSL today and still had it set from the other night, thinking it was just as bad ass as it could get. Then I hear this. That's a new level of badassery. I don't have any input other than WHY DID YOU STOP PLAYING?!?

 

[Tadpui]

Here's a nice heavy biting tone:
https://soundcloud.com/brother-number-one/time-for-a-change
Can't wait to unpack my Washburn and have it there waiting for when I am in this mood!

Honestly, I think that sounds awesome. Thick and sludgy, and I like that sometimes. This is one of those times. And that telltale single coil clean guitar, I think it works here as well and is a nice compliment to the onslaught of big distortion. I like the harmonized bridge too.

Are these drums done in that same fucked up way that you described in your loop thread? These actually sound pretty good for such a roundabout way of doing it. The open hi-hat could use a little bit of variation in the "verse" part, but otherwise I think they sound pretty damn good. There's a caveman Strong-Bad crash cymbal hit every once in a while too.

What is it with velocity layers and drum samplers and that highest level of velocity? It's like the guy that recorded the samples took a running start from across the room and bashed the holy living fuck out of the cymbal for that 100% velocity shot on every crash cymbal in every drum sampler I've ever used!

 

[minerman]

Bob: Cool you got the amp fixed & it cost you pennies literally dude...Cool info....


Greg: Awesome tone dude, you mentioned the low end in the room, I bet it is massive...lol...I'm getting my new speakers broken in a little at a time, I had an hour or so today before work with the Chupa on 10...It's bad-ass...lol....Love it....


JDOD: Cool little song man, are those vsti drums??? If so, they sound pretty good to me...The only things I'd do to the mix are drop the gain level on the rhythm guitars just a little, just a hair...It'll give 'em more clarity & punch....The second thing I'd do is bring the bass up in the mix quite a bit to give it some "ooomph"....Still sounds pretty damn good though....


Man, it is one cold motherfucker here tonight...When I was leaving the mine, the temp was -2...Just guessing with the wind chill up there on the mountain, I bet it's -15 or so....Cold as fuck....Had a little snow today on the way to work, & it was as slick as cat shit on aluminum foil in spots, but tonight, it was cleared off pretty good...That's one thing that really, really sucks about where I work, there isn't any "snow schedule" or snow days, you have to be there no matter what....Sucks, but that's life...

Gonna get a shower & see if it'll warm me up any...lol....

 

[JDOD]

Honestly, I think that sounds awesome. Thick and sludgy, and I like that sometimes. This is one of those times. And that telltale single coil clean guitar, I think it works here as well and is a nice compliment to the onslaught of big distortion. I like the harmonized bridge too.

Are these drums done in that same fucked up way that you described in your loop thread? These actually sound pretty good for such a roundabout way of doing it. The open hi-hat could use a little bit of variation in the "verse" part, but otherwise I think they sound pretty damn good. There's a caveman Strong-Bad crash cymbal hit every once in a while too.

What is it with velocity layers and drum samplers and that highest level of velocity? It's like the guy that recorded the samples took a running start from across the room and bashed the holy living fuck out of the cymbal for that 100% velocity shot on every crash cymbal in every drum sampler I've ever used!

Cheers,

I was pleased with that tone, I hope I can.get it back again when I re set my gear. Move house on the 25th.

Yeah, those are the result of me gradually building beats in the DAW. In this case they took me longer than the rest of the song put together. I wasn't so good and efficient at it the time.

The rapid decay is down to excessive gating. I had loads of buzzes and shit going on. You can even here a buzz all the way through the first verse.

I think the single coil is a split humbucker on the ibanez. Can't really remember though

 

[JDOD]

JDOD: Cool little song man, are those vsti drums??? If so, they sound pretty good to me...The only things I'd do to the mix are drop the gain level on the rhythm guitars just a little, just a hair...It'll give 'em more clarity & punch....The second thing I'd do is bring the bass up in the mix quite a bit to give it some "ooomph"....Still sounds pretty damn good though....

The drums are just me building beats up from single hits. I tend to use a track for each hit in my DAW.
Unfortunately I can't do anything with this session anymore - the component parts of it are long lost. It didn't make the transition between two different computers. When I load the session up it comes up blank aside from the drums. On the old computer I must have been saving guitar parts to the wrong place instead of the session directory - Suppose I could try and re-record the whole thing. That could be fun - working out how to play it again my be a mission though - especially that interlude.

The bass in that is an oddity - a very happy accident - purely down to me accidentally putting the bass through the guitar amp at full tilt 'cos I had just recorded some guitar parts. It lacks in bottom end but the whole song sounds angry and dirty as fuck 'cos of it. I didn't even notice while I was tracking 'cos everything was so loud in my ears. I noticed when I had finished the putting the bass on the chorus, was going to delete the track and do it again with a proper bass tone but I liked the way it sounded so I left it.

I wouldn't do that now 'cos I tend to play each part of my songs through, start to finish in one hit. When I did that I was usually recording each verse part, chorus part and bridge part separately.

Greg I just listened to your version of Safe European Home (I'm a mega Clash fan) and think it sounds dead good. Is that your usual Gibbo/Marshall sound? You even make it pretty convincing Joe Strummer.

 

[Greg_L]

You clearly now know probably more than I will ever know about the 2204 circuit. Maybe you can have a look at my amp

That sound frgS8#n fantastic, it really does. If you want to take the edge off (but why would you?), maybe notch down the volume on the guitar a little bit rather than the tone - I mean go from 10 to 9.something.

Thanks dude. I'd be happy to try to help you out on that, but don't take my word as gospel for anything. I only know what I've learned as I go. I'm certainly no tech. I do know that your later horizontal input 2204 is essentially the same as mine though, just with a different board layout and mounting like you mentioned earlier. If you can yank your chassis and take a good pic of the board, and a close up of all the shit around the bias pot trimmer, I *might* be able to tell if you have the right stuff in there for EL34s.

I literally LOL'd at the feint background screaming in the breaks

But holy fuck that sounds pretty bad ass man. No, let me remove that qualifier...it's just plain bad ass. No "pretty" about it. I was all happy when I plugged in to my DSL today and still had it set from the other night, thinking it was just as bad ass as it could get. Then I hear this. That's a new level of badassery. I don't have any input other than WHY DID YOU STOP PLAYING?!?

Ha, thanks dude. Yeah I can't wait to use this amp live. It's gonna wet some pants. Keep playing with your DSL. Try that Ultra gain channel. It's ridiculous for sure, but you can get some cool sounds out of it. It's a wildly different animal from Classic gain channel.

Greg: Awesome tone dude, you mentioned the low end in the room, I bet it is massive...lol...I'm getting my new speakers broken in a little at a time, I had an hour or so today before work with the Chupa on 10...It's bad-ass...lol....Love it....

Thanks man. I'd like to hear more clips from your G12H30 if you get a chance. I'm interested in another speaker to pair with my V30s, and that one's seemingly a perfect fit. And of course, Creambacks are very much on my radar. I need more cabs. Lol.

Greg I just listened to your version of Safe European Home (I'm a mega Clash fan) and think it sounds dead good. Is that your usual Gibbo/Marshall sound? You even make it pretty convincing Joe Strummer.

Cool, thanks dude. Joe Strummer was the fucking man. That guy was special. Yeah I think I did that cover with the LP and the 2204 I've been talking about lately. That was before the amp was all fixed up though. It still sounded decent, but not as good as I think it does now.

 

[miroslav]

That Vintage 30 isn't really doing it any favors either.

Try a WGS Reaper...it's close to the G12H30, but not the same.
You still get the nice high-end, without the V30 edge.

 

[Greg_L]

Try a WGS Reaper...it's close to the G12H30, but not the same.
You still get the nice high-end, without the V30 edge.

I like my V30s, just not usually with that amp. And the mic is too close to the center. That just happened to be where the mic was set up when I did that clip. I usually like my Greenbacks or G12-65s for the 2203/2204 amps.

I do generally like WGS speakers though. The Reaper is one I've considered. The Liberator, I think it's called, or maybe the Invader, is another. Supposed to be a higher power handling Greenback.

 

[miroslav]

I've not tried many others from WGS...but I have three WGS Reapers (two are the 55Hz type, and the other an HP type). I have each of them in use in three different amps/cabs, with the HP speaker currently in the plexi flavored amp I just picked up last momnth, and whihch you heard some tones from.

I also have a WGS Retro 30, which is a 75W speaker....it's supposed to be "brighter", but it's not a nasty kind of bright, and the low end is real tight with it. It's intended for crunch/dirty channel use. I use it in my Savage Macht 12X combo...a 6V6 amp, with a lot of growl, and that speaker fits it perfectly.

You would probably want to mix them up with some of the Celestion stuff you have.

I actually would love to try the Invader with my new plexi amp.....it might be the best choice.

 

[Greg_L]

My only problem with WGS speakers is that they're hard to find in person. I've seen and heard a few, and they always seem good, but they're just not that common. I can go anywhere and hear a wide range of Celestions or Eminence in different cabs.

I also have to keep in mind that my cabs have to work well live. I'll mix and match, but I like to try to keep the efficiency ratings similar so one group of speakers isn't overpowering the other. One of my cabs is set (Greenbacks/G12-65s). That cab kills. I love it. Cab 2 has V30/G12T-75s, and cab 3 has G12-65s/G12T-75s. I'm trying to purge the 75s for better pairings. They're just filler for cabs 2 and 3 right now. They sound fine live, but I never record them.