The New Tone Thread

[minerman]

Thanks WW, IMHO, I do ok at the drum programming thing, I just want to be able to do it a lot faster/easier than I currently do....I use Jamstix 3 for the "jist" of my programming (power/velocity levels, timing tweaks (IE: ahead/behind the beat), etc), then I go over the veloctiy hits again to try to make sure it's "human", & change a few hits/here there if I want/need to...

Still on the fence about an e-kit, I know I'd basically be learning to play drums, but I really do feel that I could just play the basic song & record the MIDI a lot faster than I could programming it....I do have tons of MIDI loops that came with my drum vsti's, but a lot of 'em are basically useless to me, as the wouldn't fit anything I'd ever be doing...

I did recently get Toontrack's "Made of Metal" EZX (I use the EZX's in Superior btw), & it does seem they've upped their game on their sounds compared to the old EZ Drummer sounds....

 

[wavewarrior]

I did recently get Toontrack's "Made of Metal" EZX (I use the EZX's in Superior btw), & it does seem they've upped their game on their sounds compared to the old EZ Drummer sounds....

Does Superior have this song building screen too?

 

[minerman]

No man, SD doesn't have that, but I've heard talk of Superior 3 coming out before long, & I'm sure if that happens, they're will be a major upgrade to everything in it, as it's their "flagship" product...I started out with EZD a few years ago, & it was ok, but I really like all the control over the bleed in each channel/mic in SD, plus the ability to bring in other drum/cymbals from other TT packs via the X-Drum thing....Costs a lot more, but IMO, it's worth it....Superior is my "go-to" drum vsti btw, it's not bad on CPU, but may be heavy on RAM depending on what you load into it...Plus, I'm just so used to Toontrack's stuff, it's almost second nature for me now....

 

[miroslav]

I doubt that if/when they come out with SD3 it will also have song building screens/etc....like EZD2.

I mean....what would be the point, and what then would be the difference between them....just the add-on packs.
IMO...and I could be wrong....SD unlike EZD2 is aimed at the more typical engineering use for tracking/mixing (not for songwriting)...and that's where it will stay.
The thing they will do if/when they release SD3 is make it capable of loading all the *new* EZD2 packs...since currently you can only load the original EZD packs in SD. Any new EZD2 pack will not work in SD.....AFIK...not that I see that as any problem, since there were already plenty of existing drum packs...and man, how may *new* packs can they really come out with...without NOT simply revisiting old ground.

I think we all get a little jaded...and it's like all of a sudden the "old" sounds just don't sound as good, so we want "new" sounds... ....but in reality, the old sounds still sound good, same as when we first got them.
I also think people get too hung up on minutia...like "I just auditioned 354 snare sounds and they all suck."
I mean REALLY...they ALL suck...???

From what I've heard in the Slate Trigger samples and all the Toontrack stuff I have...I have a hard time finding stuff that actually *sucks*....it's just a lot of variety (maybe too much variety).
Besides....WTF does anyone need 354 snare sounds for anyway?

 

[wavewarrior]

Yeah, checked out both SD & EZ2 and the songwriting screen is what pushed me towards EZ2.

Not only does it have great sound samples & some interesting preset patterns (which can be user modified) there’s also a “tap to find” feature that uses artificial intelligence to offer close matches and different verse, chorus and bridge options.

Once you figure the amount of "measures" you want for each section it’s all cut/copy/paste. You can even modify copied segments to reduce too much repetition of earlier patterns later on in the tune; so they don’t sound “disco”.

Complete song drum sequences can be built using EZ2’s songwriter functions within a few minutes; instead of a few hours like when I was only using my old MPC to write drum parts. EZ2 an excellent songwriter's tool.

 

[Greg_L]

I doubt that if/when they come out with SD3 it will also have song building screens/etc....like EZD2.

I mean....what would be the point, and what then would be the difference between them....just the add-on packs.
IMO...and I could be wrong....SD unlike EZD2 is aimed at the more typical engineering use for tracking/mixing (not for songwriting)...and that's where it will stay.
The thing they will do if/when they release SD3 is make it capable of loading all the *new* EZD2 packs...since currently you can only load the original EZD packs in SD. Any new EZD2 pack will not work in SD.....AFIK...not that I see that as any problem, since there were already plenty of existing drum packs...and man, how may *new* packs can they really come out with...without NOT simply revisiting old ground.

I think we all get a little jaded...and it's like all of a sudden the "old" sounds just don't sound as good, so we want "new" sounds... ....but in reality, the old sounds still sound good, same as when we first got them.
I also think people get too hung up on minutia...like "I just auditioned 354 snare sounds and they all suck."
I mean REALLY...they ALL suck...???

From what I've heard in the Slate Trigger samples and all the Toontrack stuff I have...I have a hard time finding stuff that actually *sucks*....it's just a lot of variety (maybe too much variety).
Besides....WTF does anyone need 354 snare sounds for anyway?

It's digital DAW technology run amok. It's not a good thing.

 

[minerman]

I doubt that if/when they come out with SD3 it will also have song building screens/etc....like EZD2.

I mean....what would be the point, and what then would be the difference between them....just the add-on packs.
IMO...and I could be wrong....SD unlike EZD2 is aimed at the more typical engineering use for tracking/mixing (not for songwriting)...and that's where it will stay.

You're probably right on this Miro, but you never know....I personally don't care either way, as believe it or not, I am decent at programming drums for a song, I've just got into a huge rut in the past year or so, along with being so nit-picky about all my shit, I haven't finished a song, but that's about to change....lol...

The thing they will do if/when they release SD3 is make it capable of loading all the *new* EZD2 packs...since currently you can only load the original EZD packs in SD. Any new EZD2 pack will not work in SD.....AFIK...

The new EDZ2 sounds will load into SD as long as you've updated Superior to version 2.4.....trust me, I know, I have the new "Made of Metal" EZX, don't have EZ Drummer 2, & really have no intention of having EZD2 myself...

Greg's right though, it has gotten completely out of hand, but I'm as responsible for it as anyone else....guilty as charged, but, in my defense, I don't have any other means of having drums in my songs, so for me, the drum vsti's are actually a great thing, but again, I do agree with Greg, it's ridiculous how many drum programs there are now, it's all about the $$$$ for the companies though....



And, I'll be moving again in the next month or so....I was gonna wait until spring (after most of the bad weather has gone to be honest), but I've found a nice little pad, at a price I really can't pass up....It's a 3-bedroom house (actually kinda small, but should be great for me....), it's off to itself (kinda), & I'm about 99% that I'm gonna make the deal...Of course, there'll be lots of shit to take care of before I can actually move in, but again, I've found a nice little pad that I'm gonna move into, probably in about a month or so....I've already picked out which room is gonna be the jam/music room, while it's not huge (it's about 14x14), it's the biggest bedroom, so I'm gonna turn that into my music space.....I'll most likely try some room treatment (I've still got quite a bit of the Roxul that I can make some panels out of), & it should be a pretty cool looking place once I get settled in....It's quite a bit closer to work for me, so it's gonna cut my drive time to/from work down quite a bit, but, it's still close enough to my family that I'll be able to drive about 30 mins or so to see 'em (especially my Mom.....Friday made a year to the day that my Dad passed away....we're all doing as good as we can, it's just really different without him, especially during the holidays that have just went by....)....Finally, getting my shit lined out a little more, it's been a tough year for me, & I hope the coming year is a lot better....we'll see I suppose, but I'm really, really excited about the new house....

I'm gonna try to post some toans tomorrow, but don't know for sure, just depends on what all I have to finish up before going back to work on Monday, I've been pretty busy with a lot of different shit that doesn't even relate to music this week, but I gotta do what I gotta do.....

 

[ecc83]

"They" are not allowed to do that over here. If a store advertises "50% off" they have to show that the goods were on sale for several weeks before at the higher price.
Mind you, so many services have been cut now that there are not enough Trading Standards offices around to look after really serious stuff like car safety so the buggers get away with murder.

Happy New Year everyone.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

The new EDZ2 sounds will load into SD as long as you've updated Superior to version 2.4.....trust me, I know, I have the new "Made of Metal" EZX, don't have EZ Drummer 2, & really have no intention of having EZD2 myself...

Oh...ok...there you go. I didn't even know they put out 2.4!
I'll have to download it.
So that covers the EZD2 packs...but I would still wonder why and if they would make SD3 be pretty much like EZD2...? There certainly are other areas of SD2 that could use some tweaking and improving, but I hope they don't change it dramatically like they did EZD.

Greg's right though, it has gotten completely out of hand, but I'm as responsible for it as anyone else....guilty as charged, but, in my defense, I don't have any other means of having drums in my songs, so for me, the drum vsti's are actually a great thing, but again, I do agree with Greg, it's ridiculous how many drum programs there are now, it's all about the $$$$ for the companies though....

Yeah...but THIS is the beast that everyone clamored for....and still looking for even more "creature features". Once you're ITB...it's hard to avoid all the toys and possibilities.

I try hard to keep my feet somewhat still OTB...at least I'm staying that way for tracking for awhile (probably until my 2" tape deck completely dies)...but I still do some tracks D-to-D and the whole mixing scenario is looking more and more pleasing in the ITB world.
Right now, I still come out of the DAW and mix analog, but each day I'm using more plugs at the DAW end as it feeds the analog mixing rig. Each new song sees me incorporating more/new plugs and DAW processing where in the past I would have saved it all for the analog mixdown. When I stand up the new DAW I am configuring....mmmmm...hard to say right now, but I may try some all ITB mixdowns.

That said....I still want to upgrade my analog console, so right now I'm all fucked up about which way to go... ...and that's mostly due to the state and capability of digital audio, and drum sample players/editors are one part of that. I could keep using my drummer buddy to record drums, but now with SD, if he's not available, I'm not stuck anymore until he is. I can push forward and it does sound really good.
I will draw the line at guitar tracking....it will be amps, cabs and mics to the end!

You know....it's all good.
We are all so stupid-lucky that we have THESE kinds of toys to play with today. Back in the day...."home recording" was at best a feeble attempt to churn out low to mid grade "demos".
And we all had to walk in the snow...up-hill in both directions....

 

[Greg_L]

Greg's right though, it has gotten completely out of hand, but I'm as responsible for it as anyone else....guilty as charged, but, in my defense, I don't have any other means of having drums in my songs, so for me, the drum vsti's are actually a great thing, but again, I do agree with Greg, it's ridiculous how many drum programs there are now, it's all about the $$$$ for the companies though....

I don't knock the use of drum VSTs. I get it. I know not many people can actually play drums, have the room or loudness leniency for real drums, and I know it's even harder to record them successfully. But like Miro said....354 fucking snare samples? Seriously, that's excessive. No one needs that much "flexibility". At that point you're just entertaining yourself and no one else will notice.

It's like guitar sim programs. Cool, yeah, you have ten different Marshalls, five Fenders, three Mesas, a few Oranges, HiWatts, etc. But who the fuck really uses that many sounds? No one. Especially in sim world where everything kind of sounds the same anyway. You're just entertaining yourself and no one else.

And that's fine, I like entertaining myself too. But I've learned to track it and live with it. Take the time to experiment and learn your gear, but then get after it. Even in the DAW where there are no limits to the tweaking you can do, I just track it and go. It's sooooo liberating. Does a listener care if your mids are on 6 or 7? Nope. Not even a little. As long as you're not tracking total crap, just track it and live with it.

 

[wavewarrior]

Back in the 80’s & early 90’s I worked in several Neve, SSL & Trident equipped pro studios in NY, Nashville and Miami.

All were loaded with insane amounts of outrageous vintage equipment; you name it we used it or had access to it almost anything you could ever dream of using.

Record companies could try to justify week long “block rates” @ $500 to $800 a day with no problems, but when aspiring unsigned artists & songwriters would come in I usually felt sorry for the amounts of money they would burn thru just for “demos”.

Was it all sonically magical? Yes, but was it worth the ton of cash they spent? Well, when I look back at the dozen or so years I personally experienced as an engineer with unsigned artists & songwriters…… I got paid very well, but almost all of them really did pissed away a lot of cash and went nowhere for it.

These days, there are lots of great options for songwriters with home studios if your primary concern is capturing the vibe and message of your song.

There comes a point where many people fall off the deep edge, I call it the “Tom Scholz syndrome”. You can spend six months to record a single song where everything is “perfection” or you can record several albums worth of demo song material for music publishing or jingle purposes in the same time; take your pick.

 

[minerman]

I don't knock the use of drum VSTs. I get it. I know not many people can actually play drums, have the room or loudness leniency for real drums, and I know it's even harder to record them successfully. But like Miro said....354 fucking snare samples? Seriously, that's excessive. No one needs that much "flexibility". At that point you're just entertaining yourself and no one else will notice.

It's like guitar sim programs. Cool, yeah, you have ten different Marshalls, five Fenders, three Mesas, a few Oranges, HiWatts, etc. But who the fuck really uses that many sounds? No one. Especially in sim world where everything kind of sounds the same anyway. You're just entertaining yourself and no one else.

And that's fine, I like entertaining myself too. But I've learned to track it and live with it. Take the time to experiment and learn your gear, but then get after it. Even in the DAW where there are no limits to the tweaking you can do, I just track it and go. It's sooooo liberating. Does a listener care if your mids are on 6 or 7? Nope. Not even a little. As long as you're not tracking total crap, just track it and live with it.

Oh dude, I wasn't saying you knock the use of drum vsti's, I was just agreeing with you about the excessive amounts of shit one can get caught up in....Myself included, & I'm very guilty of it, very....But, over the past little while, I've made a couple/few kits in Superior/Slate that I use for "my" kits....Of course, I finally realize they'll never be or sound completely like real drums, & I'm ok with it, I just have to do the best I can & move on......

I've actually "dumbed" down my effects/vst's in the last little while too, I've made track templates in Reaper with a couple reverbs (room & plate), a compressor & an eq...That's pretty much it, unless you count the fx I use from my ampsims (like chorus, delay, etc) for my guitar tracks, but I have deleted/gotten rid of a lot of shit in the last little while...

On the drum sample thing, yes, I still have a shit-load of choices that I could use, but again, I've got a couple kits saved as templates, & I'm trying to get those to sound as real as I can without fumbling through endless sample choices....

That said, I've actually got about 4-5 songs pretty much finished up (including vocals....yes, I tracked some vocals while I was off work this week...), they just need to be mixed...I'll most likely wait until the whole shebang is done before I post 'em anywhere though...

 

[Lt. Bob]

track it and live with it

Banging away on logs and an ice bucket can be perfectly usable if it's musical.
There's been awesome music done with the old 808 drum machine and it just sounds like a pile of dogshit ..... the absolute worst drum sounds that a sick mind could conceive ...... but used musically it was simply a rhythmic part of the tunes.

I do all my drums on a Roland XP 60 and mostly only use one 'set' which has a total of 3 snare choices of which I mostly use one ...... I don't post songs here much but I've never had anyone comment of the drums in any way at all because I use them to propel the song and almost any percussive sound can do that if used right.
it's not the samples or sounds that drive a song .... it's where you choose to place them. It's the way you decide to combine the many different elements of a drumset to make up a whole rhythmic thing. Do you know where to play behind the beat or when to go on top of it ....... when should it just be straight ahead.

People do get so caught up in all the options that they almost don't record because they keep agonizing over whether they have the perfect kick or not.
Freakin' pick one and record.

 

[miroslav]

...I've made a couple/few kits in Superior/Slate that I use for "my" kits....Of course, I finally realize they'll never be or sound completely like real drums, & I'm ok with it, I just have to do the best I can & move on......

That's the way....set up some "go-to" kits from all you available packs, and them make some music with them.
I mean...what is "real" anyway? Those are ALL *real* drums played by real drummers...it just comes down to how you set the grooves up, and really....I think you already do that fairly well.

You're just too close to it...we all are, so we notice all the little warts. Like Greg said, most people wouldn't notice a thing listening to the songs, it's only us recording guys, because we are always "zoomed in" too close to the audio, instead of zooming out and listening more to the music.

 

[rayc]

I've started work on a new track - my 1st newie in more than a year I think - definitely the 1st in 6 months anyway.
It's short, relatively fast and basic.
It's a draft at this stage.
There's a ten bar intro that could easily be cropped but even with it the piece is only 2 1/2 minutes duration.
The guitars are with my Mosrite copy, (down strokes only) recorded through a Kustom 5 watt & recorded with a 57 & a L'Grange.
The two mics are blended - mainly 57s.
The 2nd guitar has a Boss SD1 adding a clean boost to give a little difference as I couldn't turn up the amp this morning.
I added a little top end to the guitars as they sound dark on my monitoring set up - though sound bright through a Yamaha Direct Amp & AR speakers.
Oh, excuse the drums (recent topic'n'all) they're a stereo file created in Band-in-a-Bos because I needed something as a tempo/structure guide & was in a hurry.
How's the TONE gentlemen?

This 2nd is essentially the same but has Sanford bass tightener & a limiter across the master buss.

 

[antichef]

Ray - sounds awesome on my system (except the drums ) - the tone is dark, but I've come to expect that from your songs - part of the sound. And I like the sound. I do like the second track better - is it that the bass frequencies are made to mono? The change is subtle for me, maybe because I have a single subwoofer, so all bass frequencies are mono for me -- but can I ask at what point you set it?

I played with midi drums for a few years and wound up getting a drum kit and a bunch of mics because it's a lot *easier* that way for me - especially if I can con a drummer into coming over and playing the drums.

 

[Tadpui]

Well I've had a few days to fiddle with the DSL40CST, with the Creamback speaker. I still don't really know what I'm doing yet, with 2 new amps, a new mic, and a new room. I liked this snippet through the headphones but as I listen to it over speakers, it's a little too dirty/grainy. But it's getting there. I probably need to find a balance between the resonance and the bass settings because it gets boomy several times when the guitar's volume is rolled back.

This is through my LP Classic, volume dialed back to 6 for the first bit and up at 10 for the last bit (some of Bowie's "Supermen"). Mic is an Audix i5 about 1/2 way between center and edge.

Amp settings (approximate...the markings on the amp dials aren't super fine-grain):
Classic gain channel, crunch voicing
Gain: 3.5
Volume: 8
Treble 2
Mid: 5.5
Bass: 4.5
Presence: 1.5
Resonance: 2.5
No reverb

 

[Lt. Bob]

rayc ..... second one sounds way better than the first.
The first has a murky, muffled sound with poor note definition while the second almost sounds like a different recording.
Decent note definition and the murk is gone ..... WAY better.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Tadpui ........ I could go either way on the amount of grain ..... I love pristine cleans but tweed clean with a bit of dirt is ok too ..... I think there might be too much grain at the end and yet the end part sounds a lot better to me than the first part before you cranked it.
Sounds pretty good during the last part though.

 

[Tadpui]

I've started work on a new track - my 1st newie in more than a year I think - definitely the 1st in 6 months anyway.
It's short, relatively fast and basic.
It's a draft at this stage.
There's a ten bar intro that could easily be cropped but even with it the piece is only 2 1/2 minutes duration.
The guitars are with my Mosrite copy, (down strokes only) recorded through a Kustom 5 watt & recorded with a 57 & a L'Grange.
The two mics are blended - mainly 57s.
The 2nd guitar has a Boss SD1 adding a clean boost to give a little difference as I couldn't turn up the amp this morning.
I added a little top end to the guitars as they sound dark on my monitoring set up - though sound bright through a Yamaha Direct Amp & AR speakers.
Oh, excuse the drums (recent topic'n'all) they're a stereo file created in Band-in-a-Bos because I needed something as a tempo/structure guide & was in a hurry.
How's the TONE gentlemen?

This 2nd is essentially the same but has Sanford bass tightener & a limiter across the master buss.

I agree with Bob, the 2nd one sounds better, although it's pumping a bit from the compression. Guitars are a little dark for me, and I even like darker tones. Too much hi-frequency stuff kills a guitar tone, but these are a little distant due to their lack of high end. Good crunch though, they sound pretty smooth.