The dirty secret of Digital Adders...

[Bob Ross]

Dude, you're a 34 post newb, don't news flash me. You read this whole thread? How about this: explain to me what NEEDS to run at +4dBu, and why. Then we'll talk more.

Awesome, an internet pissing match! Bring it on, panty-waist!

And fwiw, you're still missing the point: This morning I was sitting in my very modest bedroom home studio, and just looking around I identified six pieces of gear that needed to run at +4dBu. Right now I'm sitting in the considerably more comprehensive control room at work and I can count twenty-two pieces of gear that need to run at +4dBu. And why do I say they "need" to run at +4dBu? BECAUSE IF YOU TRY TO RUN THEM AT A LOWER LEVEL THEY DON'T WORK TO SPEC!

You can't pretend these devices don't exist just 'cuz you don't own any of them. And you can't pretend we live & work in a vacuum.

Your desire to "green" the audio industry is commendable. But until the audio industry implements its own Cash For Clunkers program and gets us all to trade in our existing +4dBu equipment for your newfangled standard, manufacturers still need to accomodate a wide user base in order to be commercially viable.

"34 post newb", that's cute... (Although if by "post" you mean "number of years working professionally in the audio industry" you're spot on. I was mixing concerts when you were still pissing your pants, punk.) But hey, I'm trying to get it up to 50 posts as quickly as possible so I can get me one of them fancy custom avatars.

 

[mshilarious]

Awesome, an internet pissing match! Bring it on, panty-waist!

Uh, dude, you were the "tough-guy" when you started using the "News flash" language. Respect yourself, dig?

So, back to technical details, what are these pieces of +4dBu gear, what specification is violated by a lower operating level, and why were these pieces of gear built that way?

 

[Bob Ross]

Respect yourself, dig?

I can't, I have the misfortune of being born with the same name as this guy, remember?

So, back to technical details, what are these pieces of +4dBu gear,

Among other things, I'm staring at two racks worth of API 550b's & 525's, plus a couple dbx 160's, a TubeTech CL1B, an Altec 436C, and a Lexicon 480L. Earlier this morning I was looking at a dbx 165a, an Aphex Compellor (which admittedly has switchable i/o level), a Drawmer DS-201, an AudioArts 1200, a Yamaha D1500, a Lucid D2496, and a Sony PCM-R500...oops, wait, that's a tape deck, they don't count, right?

what specification is violated by a lower operating level,

THD+Noise suffers audibly and demonstrably when you try to pass a substantially lower level signal through any of these devices. Believe me, I've tried.

and why were these pieces of gear built that way?

Immaterial. They were built that way, and therefore if anyone has any interest in continuing to use them, one has to interface them with equipment conforming to the same standards.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Ok, guys, let's pull back a bit, shall we? Otherwise I'm just going to have to grab myself a little sap green, titanium white, and van dyke brown and paint myself a happy little bush right over this thread.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

Among other things, I'm staring at two racks worth of API 550b's & 525's, plus a couple dbx 160's, a TubeTech CL1B, an Altec 436C, and a Lexicon 480L. Earlier this morning I was looking at a dbx 165a, an Aphex Compellor (which admittedly has switchable i/o level), a Drawmer DS-201, an AudioArts 1200, a Yamaha D1500, a Lucid D2496, and a Sony PCM-R500...oops, wait, that's a tape deck, they don't count, right?

OK, some of that gear (API) is purposely designed to waste power, some of it is old designs, some of it is tube, any tube gear is destined to be woefully inefficient. This is the gear that is the problem, not the solution. I can build gear that uses less than 1W per channel from the mics through to the converter. The computer I can't help, I'm not too good at programming microprocessors But there are plenty of small efficient recording devices on the market, which demonstrates that it could be done on a larger scale.

Immaterial. They were built that way, and therefore if anyone has any interest in continuing to use them, one has to interface them with equipment conforming to the same standards.

It's not immaterial! The question should be, is it possible to redesign the circuit for lower noise, lower operating level, and lower power consumption? If the answer is yes, then it should be done.

If the answer is no, then only that gear need operate at the higher level, not an entire studio. There is absolutely no reason that a bit of professional audio kit manufactured in this century cannot have input noise below -110dBV unweighted. None whatsoever. And if the manufacturers refuse to do it, we ought to call them on it.

 

[Farview]

I think some happy bush would calm everyone down a bit.

 

[mshilarious]

I think some happy bush would calm everyone down a bit.

I love Bob Ross. I always wonder if he cussed up a storm off-camera though

 

[ofajen]

It's not immaterial! The question should be, is it possible to redesign the circuit for lower noise, lower operating level, and lower power consumption? If the answer is yes, then it should be done.

If the answer is no, then only that gear need operate at the higher level, not an entire studio.

A corollary of particular importance to many HR folks is that gear not properly designed to operate at +4 dBu should not be operated at that level. A lot of more recent gear claims to be able to work with +4 dBu levels, but really doesn't have the capacity to provide headroom, cushion and fidelity with +4 dBu levels. Babying this gear makes things more complicated and more tedious, but the payoff is surprisingly good results from relatively modest gear.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[Dogman]

I think some happy bush would calm everyone down a bit.

Vagasil might help also....

 

[mshilarious]

A corollary of particular importance to many HR folks is that gear not properly designed to operate at +4 dBu should not be operated at that level. A lot of more recent gear claims to be able to work with +4 dBu levels, but really doesn't have the capacity to provide headroom, cushion and fidelity with +4 dBu levels. Babying this gear makes things more complicated and more tedious, but the payoff is surprisingly good results from relatively modest gear.

That's very true.

Hey Dogs, think about capturing all of the waste heat to boil wort

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I love Bob Ross. I always wonder if he cussed up a storm off-camera though

*OFF* camera? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gr-WuqVYhY&feature=related



G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think some happy bush would calm everyone down a bit.

+10. 7 points for the double-euphemism (or is that a triple-entendre?) And 3 points for simultaneously channeling Ben Afflek in "Extract".

G.

 

[Farview]

+10. 7 points for the double-euphemism (or is that a triple-entendre?) And 3 points for simultaneously channeling Ben Afflek in "Extract".

G.

I should get another couple of points since I have never seen "Extract".


In fact, the only Ben Affleck movie I have seen was Dogma.

 

[c7sus]

I just want to bend the strings like reen too teen too reen too teen too tee too tee.



And then have it playback:

REEN TOO TEEN TOO
REEN TOO TEEN TOO
TEE TOO TEE

Do I need digital adders???

 

[mshilarious]

I just want to bend the strings like reen too teen too reen too teen too tee too tee.



And then have it playback:

REEN TOO TEEN TOO
REEN TOO TEEN TOO
TEE TOO TEE

Do I need digital adders???

No, you need digital multipliers.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I should get another couple of points since I have never seen "Extract".

I don't think anybody has yet; it just opened this weekend and didn't even show up in the top five in box office. He only plays a supporting role in it, but the character is classic. Your post was practically ripped from his part .

But his character is nothing compared to the factory worker who is also in a band he describes as "part screamcore/part grindcore". I won't give it away here, but just the name of the band is almost worth the price of movie admission .

G.

 

[noisewreck]

But his character is nothing compared to the factory worker who is also in a band he describes as "part screamcore/part grindcore".

Might be worth the watch just for the band They don't mix some skullstep with it do they?

 

[noisewreck]

I just want to bend the strings like reen too teen too reen too teen too tee too tee.



And then have it playback:

REEN TOO TEEN TOO
REEN TOO TEEN TOO
TEE TOO TEE

Do I need digital adders???

It depends if you like DC offset

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Might be worth the watch just for the band They don't mix some skullstep with it do they?

The band only shows up in one scene, and even then they are pretty much in the background (playing in front of a garage ). You don't need to hear the band, though; you *know* exactly what they sound like when you see and hear this guy do his spiel, with the nostril ring, droopy eyes, Mastadon T-shirt, and camo shorts handing out the homemade band poster to his workmates and explaining that "ladies get in [the yard party] free", while explaining that this is one of four bands that he's in, but the other three "bands" are all basically the same guys.

If If I had a dollar.... .

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I just want to bend the strings like reen too teen too reen too teen too tee too tee.



And then have it playback:

REEN TOO TEEN TOO
REEN TOO TEEN TOO
TEE TOO TEE

Do I need digital adders???

From the sound of those reens, I'd say a digital mute would be in order

G.