The dirty secret of Digital Adders...

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He's talking mixdown, not tracking. You hear a lot of CDs peak at -10dBFS?
Not after mastering, but *at mixdown* before mastering, that's not at all unreasonable or that uncommon...for me anyway.
gekko zed said:
my fingers are digital adders
When the right gal is around, I can count to eleven! ;)
now, whatever the reason might be... this "compression" effect -within your DAW- is REAL and not subtle at all, in fact is very audible.
and also... not real, or much less... on analog mixing,
This sounds so stupid and obvious... yes.. but... does everyone has this in mind in every mix down??
I gotta be honest and say that I really have no idea what you're talking about with that "compression effect". It's NOT happening in the summing algorithms or in the summing process itself; there are plenty of well documented tests that anyone can perform that show no evidence of differences in summing results whatsoever.

I'm not saying that you're not hearing something, but there are so many other variables and possibilities that your description thus far just isn't enough to cover. But honestly it's almost certainly not for any reasons you describe.

And no, everyone does not consider this when they mix. Not only because the effect you describe as obvious is not something that anyone else (to my knowledge) has ever described or documented here, other than that subtle distortion at the top end of some converters. But also because gain structure management as I described is not a concept about which most beginners and home recordists are all that savvy. There tends to be a belief more towards false myths such as "record as hot as possible" or "use every bit you can", which usually serve only to lessen the quality of the production.

G.
 
You hear a lot of CDs that are the same volume as the average mixdown?

There is this modern belief that volume is the sole providence of mastering, or that is even a desired concept.

Anyway, if we accept -10dBFS peak as a reasonable goal for TRACKING (which I would suggest), that might result a "faders up" mix maybe in the -6dBFS peak range (really depends on where those peaks fall). If there is no other processing to be applied, should the mixer turn down the master bus by 4dB just to hit an artificial -10dbFS goal? No, because it's an unnecessary processing step just as a 6dB increase would be, but in the case of a truncation to a 24 bit mixdown information will be lost with the attenuation. Sure, it might be a trivial amount of information; the noise floor might be unchanged due to analog or acoustic noise. But there is no reason whatsoever to do it.

Now let's say we want to use something truly evil like a compressor. Compressors reduce peak level. Are you suggesting that makeup gain should never be used? Or only enough makeup gain so that the peak level of -10dBFS is unchanged? There is no difference between digital makeup gain of 10dB or 8dB or 12dB, so long as the output of the master bus doesn't clip at 0dBFS.

You'll see MEs often suggest that mixes peak at say -6dBFS (-2 or -3 at the worst). That's not because a peak near 0dBFS causes some sort of horrible digital error (not on modern gear anyway, and certainly not on the ME's gear), but rather because the inexperienced mixer might do the sort of dreadful limiting or clipping the ME is desperate to avoid.

But it is not contestable that the absolute best mathematical process would be to peak normalize & dither the final mix, with all interim steps remaining at 32 bit float (assuming a 32 bit float DAW), then truncate to 24 bit. Or heck, just submit 32 bit float files to the ME.

If you are producing your own CDs, as many here are, then there is no reason to even conceive of a mastering process as anything not integrated with the whole production process.

We also need to be careful about being too blithe with low levels on tracking; maybe -10dBFS peak is great, but -20dBFS peak probably is not. It could mean -40dBFS RMS for some material, and that might leave less than 70dB of dynamic range with some converters. The converter would likely become the noise floor, which is a real gain staging problem rather than all of the perceived problems of this thread. The 24 bit world doesn't really have 48dB more dynamic range than 16 bit, it's more like 24-28dB.
 
In 32bit float, which is what most decent DAWs use for internal processing and calculations...it doesn't matter much where your individual faders are relative to your master fader...it will sound the same.


When you create your final 2-track...are you perhaps using some form of dithering and SRC that is causing this "compression" effect?
Why don't you start by telling us which DAW software you are using and your exact process...your settings...etc.



Here's an adder for you: :D

94821-004-629D4B1A.jpg
 
Please describe me in detail which are the "DAW's you know", or at least the ones you have performed this tests on ... you can hear a diference!!

I use SONAR, which does not behave as you described. Most other modern DAWs also use 32 floating point, and should not have that defect either. And it is a defect.

Tell you what - please do two mixes both ways, then post 10 to 30 second excerpts of each clip and I'll download and investigate. Or if you already have those mixes, extract short clips from each and post them. But don't normalize the volumes. Just post them at the levels you exported. I'll deal with the rest here. Or email them to me through my home page www.ethanwiner.com.

--Ethan
 
..You'll see MEs often suggest that mixes peak at say -6dBFS (-2 or -3 at the worst). That's not because a peak near 0dBFS causes some sort of horrible digital error (not on modern gear anyway, and certainly not on the ME's gear), but rather because the inexperienced mixer might do the sort of dreadful limiting or clipping the ME is desperate to avoid..
Dign.
Ethan said:
I use SONAR, which does not behave as you described. Most other modern DAWs also use 32 floating point, and should not have that defect either. And it is a defect.
And ding again. And, as the fine fellow from Cake' has stated several times when this have come up over and again on the Sonar forum.
Not to mention that even if your 32 float mix is hot' you can do what the ME might in any case- reduce the level and proceed.

One must be cautious comparing things. I know for example from direct experience you (we) can hear changes even when there are none, let alone throwing in actual variables. :)
 
There is this modern belief that volume is the sole providence of mastering, or that is even a desired concept.

Anyway, if we accept -10dBFS peak as a reasonable goal for TRACKING (which I would suggest), that might result a "faders up" mix maybe in the -6dBFS peak range (really depends on where those peaks fall). If there is no other processing to be applied, should the mixer turn down the master bus by 4dB just to hit an artificial -10dbFS goal? No, because it's an unnecessary processing step just as a 6dB increase would be, but in the case of a truncation to a 24 bit mixdown information will be lost with the attenuation. Sure, it might be a trivial amount of information; the noise floor might be unchanged due to analog or acoustic noise. But there is no reason whatsoever to do it.

Now let's say we want to use something truly evil like a compressor. Compressors reduce peak level. Are you suggesting that makeup gain should never be used? Or only enough makeup gain so that the peak level of -10dBFS is unchanged? There is no difference between digital makeup gain of 10dB or 8dB or 12dB, so long as the output of the master bus doesn't clip at 0dBFS.

You'll see MEs often suggest that mixes peak at say -6dBFS (-2 or -3 at the worst). That's not because a peak near 0dBFS causes some sort of horrible digital error (not on modern gear anyway, and certainly not on the ME's gear), but rather because the inexperienced mixer might do the sort of dreadful limiting or clipping the ME is desperate to avoid.

But it is not contestable that the absolute best mathematical process would be to peak normalize & dither the final mix, with all interim steps remaining at 32 bit float (assuming a 32 bit float DAW), then truncate to 24 bit. Or heck, just submit 32 bit float files to the ME.

If you are producing your own CDs, as many here are, then there is no reason to even conceive of a mastering process as anything not integrated with the whole production process.

We also need to be careful about being too blithe with low levels on tracking; maybe -10dBFS peak is great, but -20dBFS peak probably is not. It could mean -40dBFS RMS for some material, and that might leave less than 70dB of dynamic range with some converters. The converter would likely become the noise floor, which is a real gain staging problem rather than all of the perceived problems of this thread. The 24 bit world doesn't really have 48dB more dynamic range than 16 bit, it's more like 24-28dB.

English please.
 
Hmmm..You know, as crazy as this guys sounds I think I may know what he's talking about (yeah Im crazy, SO)

There has been talk for a while from several ME's that adding a Master Fader to your DAW lessens the quality in an audible way. I have heard some actually recommend you NOT add a Master Fader to your mix and just bounce it, or run it back through your analog gear to ADAT or whatever summing medium you're using. I've heard mixed results from experimentation..but there was just way too much variables for it to be a true scientific and conclusive experiment.

But maybe just MAYBE, this is what he is referring to.
 
Hmmm..You know, as crazy as this guys sounds I think I may know what he's talking about (yeah Im crazy, SO)
There has been talk for a while from several ME's that adding a Master Fader to your DAW lessens the quality in an audible way. I have heard some actually recommend you NOT add a Master Fader to your mix and just bounce it..
The master is where I trim the final level -both pre master compressor and/or what ever else is on the master, and or post, not to mention metering and the source for the 'bounce to track mix (which is ultimately what I 'export.
I can't even imagine working straight hardware out'.
I've run into posts where... Skip that. Do some of you not use a master bus'?
Maybe I'm missing something here. :confused:
 
I can't even imagine working straight hardware out'.
I've run into posts where... Skip that. Do some of you not use a master bus'?
Maybe I'm missing something here. :confused:

It may not be exactly applicable to this discussion...but I NEVER use a master bus....and I ALWAYS just use my hardware outs.

But then...I mix/sum OTB, and the DAW is just a playback deck. :)
 
If you are producing your own CDs, as many here are, then there is no reason to even conceive of a mastering process as anything not integrated with the whole production process.
While it is possible that an all-in-one-guy production *can* take care of some of "mastering's" nominal tasks during mixing or on the mixdown itself, I don't see it as making a whole lot of sense to finalize the mix volume until you have an actual mix to finalize and a target finiaization "sound" to actually shoot for.

Is it possible to just throw some (or even all) of your 2-mix processing right on the master bus *as* you create the mix (as opposed to creating the mix and saving it first before moving on to the next logical post production phase)? Sure, if all you're doing is creating a single with absolutely no future chance of having to integrate it into a collection of some type such as a compliation, anthology, EP or full album. But even in the case of making a single only, it still makes complete sense to me to use the mixdown as a stage at which you save what you have so far before moving on to the next steps. And if you're mixing a song intentionally as part of a collection, it makes no sense to me to do any but the most minimal processing to the 2mix until you have all the 2mixes together to examine as a group.

It's no different or better IMHO, FDIC, to master a song solo when it's going to be used in a collection of songs than it is to "mix" an instrument track to get it sounding great solo before you check to see how it fits or not in the rest of the mix.

And as far as the -10dB thang, I can only speak for myself, but it's not that I meant or even advocated that -10dBFS - or any other specific number, FTM - as a *target*. I only extremely rarely advocate mixing or mastering to specific numbers, as you probably well know. I also was treating that -10dB number as a ballpark figure meant in context to indicate that having the mix numbers come in well below full-scale is not a bad thing.

For me, the actual numbers that the mix comes out with - with a master buss set at unity and with no master buss processing, as I almost always mix - will vary depending upon track content and can easily *naturally* come in at something along the lines of -10dBFS peaks with RMS levels in the -17 to -22dBFS range. Sometimes those numbers may wind up a few or more dB higher. Sometimes (though not as often, probably) even a couple of dB lower.

Now, granted, there are more than one legit styles of mixing, and mine is not the only way, though it is not unique by any long shot. I *DO* almost always start with a faders up check, but more often than not I'll then move to a default automation setting on all tracks of -3dB (to give me some automation "headroom"), and when adjusting individual relative track levels, I'll be pulling most of them down off of unity gain, leaving the loudest ones at unity. This more often than not winds up the kind of numbers I described in the above paragraph.

Numbers which, BTW, I personally find attractive (even if only on an old-school aesthetic level) because they tend to keep a continuity on the digital side with analog line level. At the same time they almost never compromise usable dynamic range, noise level, or headroom, which to me coincides with good gain structure strategy.

Again, I'm not saying that's the ONLY good or legit mix strategy, but it is *A* good one, and it easily and naturally results in the kind of -10 (+/-) peak numbers about which we're currently examining, without purposely setting any specific target levels.

G.
 
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So, let me get this straight...

1. The original poster declared that his master fader is causing unwanted limiting, even when not peaking.
2. He basically blamed it on his crappy sound card, but that is besides the point.
3. He remedies the problem by reducing all channel levels by 6 or 8 dB prior to the 2-track master fader.
4. Then he hints that perhaps the mastering houses have known this all along, which explains why they want lower levels.


Hell's Bells! I say let him alone. If the man wants to go around telling people to turn down the mix, isn't that a good thing?

(We could easily prove or disprove the existence of this artifact by bypassing the master fader and assigning all tracks directly to the output device.)
 
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There is this modern belief that volume is the sole providence of mastering, or that is even a desired concept.

Anyway, if we accept -10dBFS peak as a reasonable goal for TRACKING (which I would suggest)...

Let's please remember that peak levels don't relate to perceived loudness. The meat of the tone that we hear relates to the average level and that is how we should monitor for setting levels.

You should set your gain staging to work with the I/O structure of the gear and leave enough headroom in the digital world above that average reference level, but don't worry about peak levels first.

Example. Say you set things up and track the same band, same mikes, same gear, same levels, etc. You've set things up so that average meters show tracks recording at the operating level and you've set that level with a decent amount of headroom (I'd say 20 dB is a minimum for tracking purposes, but 24 is my preference.)

Take one shows a snare max peak at -10, take two shows a snare max peak at -6. Which one is louder? Odds, are, neither if the musicians are used to playing the music. It's just the way the waves and the bits fell. Probably the real music power is the same, and it's either where it ought to be, or not, equally for both tracks.

This is what annoys me about most digital gear: peak meters only, not average or peak and average. Yeah, it helps avoid overs, but it does not tell how loud stuff is. I calibrate the output of my digital standalone to -24 on a pair of VUs and use those to set levels, since they tell me something about loudness.

If I had the bucks laying around, I'd buy a pair of Dorrough meters, but the VUs I have aplenty and they get the job done. The digital gear has peak meters to help be know I don't have overs, but the VUs show what's really relevant in setting levels.

In the box, you can use a plug in with metering that shows both peak and average, but I prefer to stay out of that mode because it's not how I prefer to work.

End of rant.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Do the test for your own!!! take any of your mix on any multitrack software and perform 2 mixdowns: one peaking near the ceiling (-1, -2 dB) and other at -6 or -10, and hear the difference!!! the reason is simple: Theres no concept of headroom on digital audio, like there is on analog consoles. yes even at 24 or 32 bits resolution... the problem is the same: the budget on digital adders is always poor on desktop computers sound cards. And if you're planning to take your mix to a professional mastering studio, the final level of that mixdown can really make the difference!

Ive been recently to some mastering studios to clear any doubts: they ask for -6dB peaking digital mixdowns.

Did you know this secret?
Without reading anything but the first post, you are correct. However, you are using it wrong.

0dbVU on an analog board is = to somewhere around -18dbfs in digital. (this depends on the calibration of the converters)

You have to anticipate your own headroom, or just record and mix at line level (-18dbfs).

The more bits you have, the lower the noise floor is. 0dbfs is always the ceiling, you add more bits and you can go lower into the negative with good resolution.

BTW, the soundcard has nothing to do with it.
 
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