The cunning plan that was, ah, er, um, well wasn't

jedblue

jedblue

beep beep beep beep beep
Greetings friends. You may know that like a lot of you I have some digital kit as well in my home setup - 2 midi sync'd Boss BR1600's;

DigitalMultitrackRecorders.jpg


Sort of obsolete now but they go quite well for what I do and after a lot of experimentation I've got a drum sound that I'm quite happy with using the Glyn John's method, a set of mikes I've finally settled on and the compressors, eq's and reverbs inside those little Boss machines (I don't personally have a need for a computer based rig).

You may recall that I've also got a basic Tascam MF-P01 cassette Portastudio and I do a little bit on that using one old Senni omni mike.

TascamMFP-014TrackPortastudio.jpg


The cunning plan came about when I really liked the sound of bass on that little Tascam recorder and then I spotted one of these on the discount list of an online retailer here;

JLCooperPPS-2.jpg


something like this Cooper PPS-2 being essential if you want to sync tape to digital. I'd been after one for at least a year and there it was in Australia and discounted by 50% so I nabbed it. I was intending to have it hanging around just in case I ever bought that 1" 8 track and needed to sync it up to Protools. Then I thought - I wonder if it'll sync up a Portastudio? So I got it out, read the instructions, striped a tape on the MFP-01 (at 1 7/8" speed) reversed the cables, midi'd it up to one of the BR1600's and set it off. It got a sync and the BR1600 started to run but it was a bit wobbly. I just put it down to the really low speed of the MF-P01. Then I wondered, what if I got a better cassette Portastudio with double speed vari speed, would that do it? So a bit of research on here and a bit of hanging around on eBay until this came up and I nabbed it;

Tascam424MkIII.jpg


So now I've almost got what I think I need, DBX NR, direct outs, sync option and three tracks of analog and double speed + 12%. The stuff I was really interested in in the analog world was kick, snare and bass. I like the way tape takes up those instruments, they can go on the 424 MKIII and the rest can go on the BR1600's. I've already got a three way midi splitter so if the cunning plan works out I can sync up the 424 MKIII via the midi splitter to both BR1600's and have three channels of analog and sixteen channels of digital for a giant Portastudio trainset. I only needed three channels of analog and I've got a whole lot of cassettes stored away. I didn't really want to go to 1/4" tape reel stock with a four track reel machine at home if I didn't have to. Should be good :).

Now there are other problems to overcome. Firstly the drum sound is depended on some pretty heavy compression on the kick and the snare and there's a bit on the bass as well. I didn't want to compress the tape signal after I'd recorded it, I wanted to do it before signal was recorded but the 424 MKIII has no inserts. And the snare mike was a condensor and the 424 MKIII has no phantom power. Now I've already got the compressor being this Berri MDX2600 at the top;

BehringerCompressorDenoiser24_96Eff.jpg


What I needed was a couple of pre amps. So I spy this thing on eBay - new stock discounted by 75%. 8 channels of pre amp with switchable phantom power, inserts and balanced or line outs at $30.oo per channel. Got to be a bargan and I'd been thinking about getting some better pre-amps to feed the BR1600's anyway;

AltoEsotarMP8.jpg


So now I've got everything for the cunning plan. I should be able to stripe up a sync tone on channel 4 of the 424 MKIII, switch to read, sync up the two BR1600's using the midi splitter, put the kick and snare drum mikes into the 424 MKIII via the remote pre-amp compressor combo and keep the two overheads on the digital machines. Then I can go back later and put a nice big fat bass tone down on track 3 of the 424 and Bob's your uncle - kick, snare and bass on tape and all the rest on digital.

So, I crank up the tape speed to maximum and stripe up the tape, rewind to zero, set the PPS-2 to read, plug in all the mikes, set the pre-amps, phantom powers and compressors, set the BR1600's to record, push record on the 424 and watch it pick up the sync tone and kick the BR1600's into record. Sweet.

Then stumble over to the drum kit, pick up the sticks, one, two, ready, play and start putting down some time. Put maybe two minutes of it down, go back to the 424. Press stop, rewind, reset the BR1600's to start, set the 424 channel switches to tape, press play and wait expectantly to hear ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................a nicely phasing drum kit with the wobbles. Not anywhere as bad as the MF-P01 managed but still basically unusable.

Bugger. I found out the same thing that Hermann at Casa Cassette found when he tried to sync up his 688's. It doesn't really work with cassettes. The transport's too slow and the tapes are too thin I suspect. I think it is tape flex that is the real culprit. Very noticable as phasing and wobble when you're trying to sync up four mikes open at the same time across two machines, one tape and one digital.

Never mind, the cunning plan was a failure and the giant analog / digital Portastudio trainset got derailed. But I've now got a nice 424 MKIII and the eight pre-amps are nicer than the standard ones on the BR1600's. I'll not bother to go to reel multi track machines at home. The analog stuff will be all analog and the digital stuff will be all digital and that's the way it'll be for me.

:o
 
Last edited:
May I make a suggestion?

Try recording your drum machine and bass across four tracks on your Portastudio. Perhaps dedicate 2 or 3 tracks to the drum machine: 2 for stereo, and 1 specialty track that is either kick or snare drum, whatever needs the most modification. If you have more than 4 outs on your drum machine, remember that you can use up to 6 inputs on the Tascam 424, that do not have to go all of the tracks, which gives you some EQ and mixing power as it is recorded across 2 or 3 tracks. Then, you can use the last track for bass, if you're playing bass live, otherwise use one of the outs from your drum machine.

Note: I don't know much about the BR-1600, but looking at the back panel, it appears you've only 2 outs. I suppose one option could be to sync your 2 BR-1600s, then record drums from one to the 424, with bass from the other to the 424 simultaneously. This is assuming that you you are using the BR-1600 for your bass; if not you could record live bass to the 424 after the drum machine has been recorded to it.

At least this would give you the analog sound, and the tracks could be recaptured by one of your BOSS machines. Of course, this would require your drum tracks be totally done before recording your other overdubs, and you would lose perfect MIDI sync capabilities for later, if you end up recording other MIDI instruments. If you don't, and everything else is live (vocals, guitar, even live recorded synths) then this might be a workable comprise for you.

Another suggestion I would make is to record without DBX. Although I love the sound of DBX on my reel machines, I've always felt it sacrifices tone much more on cassette than it does reel tape. So long as your using a high bias cassette and are recording at a pretty hot enough level, I don't think you'll have problems with hiss.

So, in summary, your 424 would be used to record up to 4 basic "analog" drum and bass tracks, which would then be recorded by your BOSS machine, on which all subsequent recordings and overdubs would take place.

-MD
 
Ah MD, not a drum machine, actual drum kit with me playing it. That's the thing see. The cunning plan was to have four open mikes across the drum kit, two of which (kick & snare) were recorded on the 424 for analog and the other two (left & right overhead) on the digital BR1600's as I played. Then track 3 of the 424 would carry the bass. Track 4 is not available on the 424 because it is carrying the audible FSK sync tone.

The JL Cooper PPS-2 handles the sync between the 424 and the BR1600's by recording that audible FSK timing signal to track 4 of the 424 in advance of any actual program material recording. DBX is defeated on track 4 using the sync setting as this time code is recorded. The PPS-2 then gets switched to "read" and converts the audible FSK signal that it previously recorded on track 4 of the 424 to midi time code and sends it to both BR1600's down the split midi cable.

All that is actually happening.

The problem seems to be that the cassette tape slightly stretches then releases as it goes through the 424's tape transport, speeding up and slowing down just slightly. So the midi time code being produced by the PPS-2 is also moving and the BR1600's are responding accordingly. The 424 is actually controlling the speed of the BR1600's and it seems to be wobbling as it plays back the sync tone. That's noticible as audible speed changes. The phasing's happening because the kick and snare drum tracks also contain elements of the overhead tracks' program material and vica versa. As the two 424 tracks and the two BR1600 tracks get ever so slightly out of sync with each other (and back again), it phases.

I'm going to stripe up one channel on my Otari 5050 15ips 1/4" machine and then see if it locks okay with the BR1600. I'll put the kick on track 1 of the Otari, the timecode on track two and the other three drum mikes on the BR1600 and see if it stay's in sync. Then I'll know that it's the thin cassette tape and relatively weaker cassette transport for sure that's causing the problem.

:)
 
Either which way, I just love your thinking on this ! I so hope it works for you. I just love that kind of invention.
 
If the two digital units can/will lock to a sync code...then I would guess the transport on the cassette deck is messed up...IOW, if it was working optimally, you should not have those issues. Have you tried cleaning it, and then recording just to the cassette and listening if it drifts and wobbles....?

But let’s FF here..... :)

If you really want to use tape for fat drum/bass tracks...that cassette is not your answer.
You want something like your Otari. I would recommend a 1/2" 8-track...and then you will see how much better it is.
 
jedblue said:
Ah MD, not a drum machine, actual drum kit with me playing it. That's the thing see. The cunning plan was to have four open mikes across the drum kit, two of which (kick & snare) were recorded on the 424 for analog and the other two (left & right overhead) on the digital BR1600's as I played. Then track 3 of the 424 would carry the bass. Track 4 is not available on the 424 because it is carrying the audible FSK sync tone.

The JL Cooper PPS-2 handles the sync between the 424 and the BR1600's by recording that audible FSK timing signal to track 4 of the 424 in advance of any actual program material recording. DBX is defeated on track 4 using the sync setting as this time code is recorded. The PPS-2 then gets switched to "read" and converts the audible FSK signal that it previously recorded on track 4 of the 424 to midi time code and sends it to both BR1600's down the split midi cable.

All that is actually happening.

The problem seems to be that the cassette tape slightly stretches then releases as it goes through the 424's tape transport, speeding up and slowing down just slightly. So the midi time code being produced by the PPS-2 is also moving and the BR1600's are responding accordingly. The 424 is actually controlling the speed of the BR1600's and it seems to be wobbling as it plays back the sync tone. That's noticible as audible speed changes. The phasing's happening because the kick and snare drum tracks also contain elements of the overhead tracks' program material and vica versa. As the two 424 tracks and the two BR1600 tracks get ever so slightly out of sync with each other (and back again), it phases.

I'm going to stripe up one channel on my Otari 5050 15ips 1/4" machine and then see if it locks okay with the BR1600. I'll put the kick on track 1 of the Otari, the timecode on track two and the other three drum mikes on the BR1600 and see if it stay's in sync. Then I'll know that it's the thin cassette tape and relatively weaker cassette transport for sure that's causing the problem.

:)
Click to expand...

I understand better now. If you get the sync to work properly with the Otari, you might have a better idea of whether or not you want to head in that direction. I would also try a track using the snare on the analog deck, because it might be more likely to phase depending in the proximity to the other mics.

Again, you might want to record all four tracks of the drums onto tape, and just record the bass digitally.

-MD
 
Your technical understanding of your rig goes far beyond what I am either knowledgable of, or at the least willing to work hard enough on to understanding this morning, BUT... this comment you made sounds like it is key:
jedblue said:
The problem seems to be that the cassette tape slightly stretches then releases as it goes through the 424's tape transport, speeding up and slowing down just slightly...

I'm going to stripe up one channel on my Otari 5050 15ips 1/4" machine and then see if it locks okay with the BR1600...Then I'll know that it's the thin cassette tape and relatively weaker cassette transport for sure that's causing the problem.

:)
Click to expand...

Way before I got to your last statement of using the Otari, I thought "Hmm, sounds like the CASSETTE TAPE is the weak link here."
 
The real problem is that you're spanning one instrument (your drumkit) over two recording devices. Even if the sync lock is super tight, you will experience phasing due to the bleed across you overheads or bass/snare mic. You need to treat your drum kit as one instrument. Track the drum to the digital machines or just use one overhead and track the drum to 3 tracks of your cassette but spanning the drum over two recorders, digital or analog won't produce a usable result. The lock might be tight enough for syncing instruments or vocals to the drums, as long as you record one instrument at a time but that's about it. I bet if you hadn't spanned the kit over two machines, it would have worked even with the MF-P01.

Cheers
Tim
 
hmmm, sounds very familiar. Actually, in my case, I'm possitive it was the stretching of the tape. But why not record 4 drum tracks to the porta, make a nice stereo mix and send that to you boss machine?
 
Thanks folks. I think all the elements of the reasons are here now. Overnight I too have come to the same conclusion that Tim has in that the sync will never be tight enough to split four drum mikes across a sync'd analog / digital system and not have it phasing, even on a wide format machine. I think that it is the cause of the phasing. The sync speed wobbles I think are being caused by the cassette tape flexing just as Hermann found. The net result being that the audio results are unacceptable and always will be.

As far as the alternatives go, for me there aren't any that are worth persuing for this little home rig. I appreciate the point about the wider format reel machine option Miroslav but I don't want to go to the expense of buying and feeding a 1/2" 8 track just to get all the drum and bass on one machine even though I've got a console at home that could run one. I'm not really that wedded to the need for an analog / digital combo at home. If it could have been done on the 424 then all and good but I don't think it can be.

Putting the drums and the bass on the cassette machine and then recording that to the digital machine is not going to work as I need five tracks for that and not the four that the 424 has. I want the drums to be in stereo. I could always try to get the drums down and then get the bass over the top using the sound on sound capabilities of the 424 I suppose but then the bass and drums are forever together and I don't think I want that given that I'm not unhappy with the way the instruments do sound on the digital machines anyway. But the bass definitely sounds better on the cassette machines than on the digital ones.

So, for my little home studio, the analog projects will be four track analog plus whatever extra features I now have available with the 424 over the MF-P01 and the digital stuff will stay digital just as it is now with a bit of extra shimmer and depth from the new pre amps. I'm going to spend a bit more time with the bass on the digital machines to see if I can get it close to what I am hearing on the Portastudios.

:)
 
Last edited:
timkroeger said:
The real problem is that you're spanning one instrument (your drumkit) over two recording devices. Even if the sync lock is super tight, you will experience phasing due to the bleed across you overheads or bass/snare mic. You need to treat your drum kit as one instrument. Track the drum to the digital machines or just use one overhead and track the drum to 3 tracks of your cassette but spanning the drum over two recorders, digital or analog won't produce a usable result. The lock might be tight enough for syncing instruments or vocals to the drums, as long as you record one instrument at a time but that's about it. I bet if you hadn't spanned the kit over two machines, it would have worked even with the MF-P01.

Cheers
Tim
Click to expand...

Tim has nailed this problem. Anytime there is bleed across microphones, the recording should take place on a single machine to prevent phasing.

Danny
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top