Tempo Changes When Using A Click

[turtle_michael]

Lets try this again, new subject, hopefully you all learned from the other thread.

It's amazing to me that with the home recording boom, tempo changes are never a part of it, or rarely.

Most songs I hear from home recording people the temp stays the same throughout. Which is really limiting in my opinion.
Most of the song have little life to them

I dont really know how to do this, playing acoustic guitar or piano its easy, you just play without a click and your set.

The tough part is drums. If you try to play drums over a piece of music that didnt use a click, its not going to work very well. If you use a drum program and put tempo changes in, it's not quite the same thing as a live drummer slowing down and up. Which happens the entire song when using real live players, not just in parts where its done on purpose.

I contacted a drummer who records drums for people who are recording and want live drums. he basicly conceded that there wasnt much he could do.

He needs to play to a click, but if the tempo changes how can he play to it, especially if trying to slow the click down in a gradual way, the live drummer would be lost.

For me, the only results I have had were slowing down the drum program, and then the drum program must fucntion as the beat keeper permanently, a live drummer will not be able to follow the slowed down rhytm unless he is watching the musicians playing and is in the same room. And it just doesnt sound real, it sounds like a machine is being slowed down, although its not horrible

It's really surprising that this subject doesnt come up often, I dont think songs were meant to be one steady tempo all the way through, and you can hear it. But most are content with the same tempo.

The other thing is time sig changes. If you record all 4/4 throughout, no problem, but if you go into 3/4 or 5/4, some time sigs get as crazy as 7.78/8ths. you see alot of that kind of stuff in Math Rock

But again, it eliminates playing drums to recorded music. cant have click tracks for different tempos and time sigs all going at the same time

It can be done in drum programs but not natural

Is home recording doomed to the same exact tempo all the way through and not able to changes time sigs?

 

[Greg_L]

No, I change tempo and time sigs pretty regularly. It's easy to program the time/tempo changes into any DAW, and you just play along with the click. It's actually very very simple. It might be harder to do with analog gear, but it's still possible. And if you've rehearsed your parts like you should, the performance is very simple.

Stop trying to complicate simple things and your life will become much easier.

 

[RAMI]

Lets try this again, new subject, hopefully you all learned from the other thread.

Good way to a start a thread.

There was nothing for anyone but you to learn. We see talentless, frustrated hacks like you come and go with their anger every 2 weeks.


Just like double-tracking, tempo changes and playing along to them is not very hard and is actually done all the time. With a little talent and some experience, you'll realize this one day.


Still trying to figure out why you're asking us amateurs another question.


Where's your music? Why are you so scared to post it?

 

[Bobbsy]

Popcorn and beer! Get your popcorn and beer here!

Actually, I'm glad to hear about how difficult tempo changes are. It means that when I work on something with multiple tempo changes (as I was this afternoon) I can justify gouging the client for more money! Yay!

 

[Greg_L]

I'm actually ashamed that I even entered this troll thread, but I figure an actual answer might help someone that's not a tool.

 

[RAMI]

Popcorn and beer! Get your popcorn and beer here!

Actually, I'm glad to hear about how difficult tempo changes are. It means that when I work on something with multiple tempo changes (as I was this afternoon) I can justify gouging the client for more money! Yay!

Hehe....I'm going to step aside and leave this thread. I wasted enough time on this bozo yesterday. Left that thread too with out reading the last few pages. Won't read the rest of this one.

I think I'll go watch one of the hundreds of Youtube videos of drummers in their basement playing along to songs from the 60's and 70's. I didn't realize how hard it was to play along to a song that wasn't recorded to a click.

Now, I realize how much of a genius I must be, considering I've mastered the art of programming tempo changes into my songs and playing along to them effortlessly. I'm going to start charging myself more.





So, where's your music? Why are you scared to post it?

 

[RAMI]

I'm actually ashamed that I even entered this troll thread, but I figure an actual answer might help someone that's not a tool.

Yeah, that's cool. His opening sentence illustrates his intentions for this thread. That's why I responded, to sort of help it along.









Where's your music? Why are you scared to post it?

 

[Mr Clean]

I find it quite easy with Reaper to make tempo changes with a click, as I did using Sonar before I changed over. It's really not difficult and I'm a complete amateur. I suggest reading the manual as it will more than likely explain it in detail. I don't play drums so drumming along is not an issue for me.

I know drummers that rehearse to their own bands cd's though so drumming along can't be that difficult as long as you can count and are rehearsed, as Greg said earlier.

Maybe you over complicate things for yourself.

 

[gecko zzed]

There are two types of tempo changes in musical material.

Those that are musical, and those that are the opposite. In musicals and orchestral works, tempo changes are deliberate and frequent; and the score is marked accordingly. The composer uses tempo changes to accentuate the drama of the piece.

In popular music, and in particular, dance music, tempo generally does not change. If you are doing a fox trot or a tango, for example, the tempo needs to be steady. Sheet music is annotated with either the BPM, or with a description (e.g. "slowly, with feeling").

When playing live, the tempo can vary a bit according to the dynamics of the song (for example, sometimes the choruses go faster than the verses). These dynamic variations are usually not wide enough to disturb the listener, but they can get out of control. I had a band come in and record a song live. It went from about 100 BPM to 120 BPM within the first verse. This was an unplanned tempo change, and added nothing good to the song. It sounded amateurish and destroyed the lazy feel the song should have had.

Strict tempo or varying tempos are both good if that's the intention. And if you are recording the material and know this intention, you can plan your approach accordingly. And neither strict nor varying tempo are particularly difficult to deal with. Most contemporary DAWs will let you map a tempo to something that's already been performed if you need that map for editing ease afterwards. Most of the time it is not necessary. Nor is it particularly difficult to predetermine where tempos should change and create a midi track to allow players to follow these changes. Competent drummers, for example, are able to set the tempo themselves, but can equally follow a click track, depending on what's required.

All of the above applies equally to time signature changes. I often experience performers who have no concept of bars or time signatures, and will throw some pretty weird timing at me. It's all in a day's work.

 

[turtle_michael]

No, I change tempo and time sigs pretty regularly. It's easy to program the time/tempo changes into any DAW, and you just play along with the click. It's actually very very simple. It might be harder to do with analog gear, but it's still possible. And if you've rehearsed your parts like you should, the performance is very simple.

Stop trying to complicate simple things and your life will become much easier.

Im not complicating thiings, I had a session drummer tell me he wouldnt be able to play to a changing tempo. A couple actually, It wouldt be me playing at all.

Analog is what were really talking about here.

 

[turtle_michael]

Good way to a start a thread.

There was nothing for anyone but you to learn. We see talentless, frustrated hacks like you come and go with their anger every 2 weeks.


Just like double-tracking, tempo changes and playing along to them is not very hard and is actually done all the time. With a little talent and some experience, you'll realize this one day.


Still trying to figure out why you're asking us amateurs another question.


Where's your music? Why are you so scared to post it?

Pro session drummers have told me they wouldnt be able to do this

 

[Greg_L]

Im not complicating thiings, I had a session drummer tell me he wouldnt be able to play to a changing tempo. A couple actually, It wouldt be me playing at all.

Analog is what were really talking about here.

You're dealing with bad drummers. I can say that because I'm a bad drummer and I have no problem dealing with time or tempo changes, so they must be really bad.

 

[turtle_michael]

Popcorn and beer! Get your popcorn and beer here!

Actually, I'm glad to hear about how difficult tempo changes are. It means that when I work on something with multiple tempo changes (as I was this afternoon) I can justify gouging the client for more money! Yay!

If its not done live, with a drummer present, or not using a drummer, I dont know how it can be done right, neither do top session drummers

 

[turtle_michael]

You're dealing with bad drummers. I can say that because I'm a bad drummer and I have no problem dealing with time or tempo changes, so they must be really bad.

Maybe because you know your tempo for your song, a drummer thousands of miles away doesnt

 

[Greg_L]

Maybe because you know your tempo for your song, a drummer thousands of miles away doesnt

I do drums for other people on the fly all the time. From around the globe. It's not hard if you're a halfway competent drummer, and I'm only halfway competent, so again, what's wrong with these "pros" you claim to be dealing with?

 

[turtle_michael]

I find it quite easy with Reaper to make tempo changes with a click, as I did using Sonar before I changed over. It's really not difficult and I'm a complete amateur. I suggest reading the manual as it will more than likely explain it in detail. I don't play drums so drumming along is not an issue for me.

I know drummers that rehearse to their own bands cd's though so drumming along can't be that difficult as long as you can count and are rehearsed, as Greg said earlier.

Maybe you over complicate things for yourself.

Yes digitally it can work, but for analog not really. And Ill take a real drummer any day over a drum program for feel and for detail of playing

 

[Steenamaroo]

Usually I start with a raw live recording from a musician and then get to know it.
I decide if that track needs the natural, live changes in tempo, or if it can 'get away' with being conformed to a solid tempo.

With some songs flat tempo just sucks the life out of them, and with others it doesn't.

Admittedly, when I do conform to a tempo, it's for simplicity.
I don't usually work with live drummers and constructing music to a straight forward solid grid is easier for me.
If there's potential for any copy/paste for harmonies or subtle backing parts, that goes out the window without a straight tempo.

I don't think music should necessarily conform to a tempo at all, but I don't think it's always wrong either.
It's genre dependant too.


I do agree with RAMIs point though. A good drummer will be able to follow almost any changes, even without that live communication.
It might take a few rehearsals or whatever, but it can be done.

I did a lot of demo tracks with a guy recently. I built mixes around a recording of his live performance.
Obviously his tempo was up and down but I was able to track bass/piano/guitar after a few practices.
I don't think drums are any different.

 

[Bobbsy]

Then your "top session drummers" are useless. The ones I've worked with do tempo changes day in and day out--often live when working in musical theatre which is what I do most of. Have a listen to things like Les Mis or Cats or other popular shows. The changes you hear are done live 8 shows a week.

Or, if you're recording digitally at home, programming the click track for anyone/everyone to follow is simple.

 

[Greg_L]

Yes digitally it can work, but for analog not really.

Yes really. It really is just up to the drummer. The recording medium has no relevance. A good drummer can figure it out pretty quick.

 

[turtle_michael]

I do drums for other people on the fly all the time. From around the globe. It's not hard if you're a halfway competent drummer, and I'm only halfway competent, so again, what's wrong with these "pros" you claim to be dealing with?

If you preopare a play along track, a click track goes with it usually to one side or the other. If they are playing real fast and then have to gradually slow down, how can you make a click for them to follow. They might catch the beat fast, but those moments before will be recorded.