Tempo Changes When Using A Click

[turtle_michael]

Then your "top session drummers" are useless. The ones I've worked with do tempo changes day in and day out--often live when working in musical theatre which is what I do most of. Have a listen to things like Les Mis or Cats or other popular shows. The changes you hear are done live 8 shows a week.

Or, if you're recording digitally at home, programming the click track for anyone/everyone to follow is simple.

Live musicians can see and play and adjust to falling rhytms on the fly, and can use body language to get tempo changes.

When you record your rhytm guitar, they can only hear what you recorded, they cant see you or adjust to you because you are playing to a click all along and then your not.

 

[Greg_L]

If you preopare a play along track, a click track goes with it usually to one side or the other. If they are playing real fast and then have to gradually slow down, how can you make a click for them to follow. They might catch the beat fast, but those moments before will be recorded.

Listen to it first. It's very simple. Any drummer worth a damn can figure it out in no time.

 

[Greg_L]

Better yet, send me your tracks. I'll drum them up for you. $50 per song.

 

[turtle_michael]

Usually I start with a raw live recording from a musician and then get to know it.
I decide if that track needs the natural, live changes in tempo, or if it can 'get away' with being conformed to a solid tempo.

With some songs flat tempo just sucks the life out of them, and with others it doesn't.

Admittedly, when I do conform to a tempo, it's for simplicity.
I don't usually work with live drummers and constructing music to a straight forward solid grid is easier for me.
If there's potential for any copy/paste for harmonies or subtle backing parts, that goes out the window without a straight tempo.

I don't think music should necessarily conform to a tempo at all, but I don't think it's always wrong either.
It's genre dependant too.


I do agree with RAMIs point though. A good drummer will be able to follow almost any changes, even without that live communication.
It might take a few rehearsals or whatever, but it can be done.

I did a lot of demo tracks with a guy recently. I built mixes around a recording of his live performance.
Obviously his tempo was up and down but I was able to track bass/piano/guitar after a few practices.
I don't think drums are any different.

But you cant have multiple tempo click tracks recorded into you guide tracks

 

[Steenamaroo]

If you preopare a play along track, a click track goes with it usually to one side or the other. If they are playing real fast and then have to gradually slow down, how can you make a click for them to follow. They might catch the beat fast, but those moments before will be recorded.

If it's ever an issue here I double or quad the rate of the click.
When I program tempo changes, they don't change on the bar..They'll be more frequent than that.

I don't know what software you use but in protools I can program very gradual changes. That helps.

 

[Greg_L]

But you cant have multiple tempo click tracks recorded into you guide tracks

You don't need to. You just need a decent drummer. Why don't you understand this?

 

[turtle_michael]

Better yet, send me your tracks. I'll drum them up for you. $50 per song.

I cant create a click that works for me to give to anybody else

 

[Steenamaroo]

But you cant have multiple tempo click tracks recorded into you guide tracks

If necessary, I map out a click track to the guys performance.
It's arse about face but it works well enough.

A good drummer may or may not want this. I'm just describing what I do to be able to track other instruments.

 

[Greg_L]

I cant create a click that works for me to give to anybody else

I don't need one, and if I do, I can make my own.

 

[turtle_michael]

If it's ever an issue here I double or quad the rate of the click.
When I program tempo changes, they don't change on the bar..They'll be more frequent than that.

I don't know what software you use but in protools I can program very gradual changes. That helps.

Yeah I have had success in cakewalk doing it, but it's alot of guess work and un naturalness, ok were at 120 bmp, our bridge feels around 80,
but the measuree before that has to go from 120 down to 80 in one measure.

And a drummer is supposed to read your mind?

 

[Greg_L]

Another option for you - have the people you're recording, if you even actually record anyone - have them play to a click track. They don't have to stay dead on it, but keep it going as a guide. Good players can move around the click or be right on it. No problem.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Yeah I have had success in cakewalk doing it, but it's alot of guess work and un naturalness, ok were at 120 bmp, our bridge feels around 80,
but the mearue before that has to go from 120 down to 80 in one measure.

And a drummer is supposed to read your mind?

OK, fair point, and fair question.
Tha's a pretty extreme example.

What I would do as pianist/guitarist/bassist is just track the two sections separately.
A drummer might do the same thing, or he might just rehearse that change a load of times before tracking.


They previous way I described is more relevant to a song that fluctuates gradually by 10bpm or whatever.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah I have had success in cakewalk doing it, but it's alot of guess work and un naturalness, ok were at 120 bmp, our bridge feels around 80,
but the mearue before that has to go from 120 down to 80 in one measure.

And a drummer is supposed to read your mind?

All he has to do is listen to the song first. And you, as super producer/engineer, should be able to make a click track. And 120 to 80 is a pretty big drop. It's either intentional or your musicians suck. Or you don't know how to give good examples.

 

[turtle_michael]

Hehe....I'm going to step aside and leave this thread. I wasted enough time on this bozo yesterday. Left that thread too with out reading the last few pages. Won't read the rest of this one.

I think I'll go watch one of the hundreds of Youtube videos of drummers in their basement playing along to songs from the 60's and 70's. I didn't realize how hard it was to play along to a song that wasn't recorded to a click.

Now, I realize how much of a genius I must be, considering I've mastered the art of programming tempo changes into my songs and playing along to them effortlessly. I'm going to start charging myself more.





So, where's your music? Why are you scared to post it?

Why do you think they are able to play covers over the recording? Because, the bass, the guitar, the keyboard, are all on there
in synch with the drummer on the recording. That is light years away from playing to a guitar guide track that is changing tempos

 

[Mr Clean]

But you cant have multiple tempo click tracks recorded into you guide tracks

Yes you can. Easily if you make a click track in midi. It's very easy!

Yes digitally it can work, but for analog not really. And Ill take a real drummer any day over a drum program for feel and for detail of playing

What about a drummer using an electric kit through a vsti? Something that is achieved a lot.

 

[Greg_L]

You clearly don't understand this stuff. Stop arguing with the answers to your questions.

 

[turtle_michael]

All he has to do is listen to the song first. And you, as super producer/engineer, should be able to make a click track. And 120 to 80 is a pretty big drop. It's either intentional or your musicians suck. Or you don't know how to give good examples.

Ok lets try this, record drums to this acoustic number. I know for a fact this was not played with a click track.

Play me some drums to this, it doesnt even change tempos on purpose, just the natrual ebb and flow of a live performance

If it sounds in synch, Ill hire you
Bruce Springsteen - Atlantic City - YouTube

 

[Greg_L]

Ok lets try this, record drums to this acoustic number. I know for a fact this was not played with a click track.

Play me some drums to this, it doesnt even change tempos on purpose, just the natrual ebb and flow of a live performance

If it sounds in synch, Ill hire you
Bruce Springsteen - Atlantic City - YouTube

Again with springsteen?

Just listening to it and drumming on my lap I can hear and feel that it is actually in very good time. The harmonica section speeds up a hair, but it's all close. The little break after the harmonica section is loose and drops out of time, but if you let the music come back in first by itself and then have the drums come in with a little fill it will work out fine. No big deal. I'm not drumming that shit, but I'm telling you as a drummer that that song is no problem whatsoever with no guide track at all. Any competent drummer could have a ball on that thing.

 

[turtle_michael]

Again with springsteen?

Just listening to it and drumming on my lap I can hear and feel that it is actually in very good time. The harmonica section speeds up a hair, but it's all close. The little break after the harmonica section is loose and drops out of time, but if you let the music come back in first by itself and then have the drums come in with a little fill it will work out fine. No big deal. I'm not drumming that shit, but I'm telling you as a drummer that that song is no problem whatsoever with no guide track at all. Any competent drummer could have a ball on that thing.

You cant hear the kind of tempo needed to play with something like this, not until you hear it back

 

[Greg_L]

You cant hear the kind of tempo needed to play with something like this, not until you hear it back

I heard it right away. It's very simple 4/4 shit. No one is just going to jump in and record something without hearing it first. If that's what you expect, you're in for a lot of disappointment and just proves your rampant naivety.