Tascam Model 3 vs M-30

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BeatleFred

BeatleFred

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Just wondering about both mixers in regard to connecting each of them to an 8 track recorder, such as a Tascam 38.

The Model 3 of the late 70's (smaller version of Model 5) provides four sets of Aux Outs alongside the Line outs.

Thus, 4 Line Outs & 4 Aux Outs can connect to an 8 track. This is also provided on the M-35, which I can understand,
as its a higher model vs the M-30. But the M-30 came out after the Model 3 in the early 80's, so I would think it would
ADD more features, not remove them vs the Model 3. Thus, its unclear to me how a newer M-30 would make it easier
to connect to an 8 track vs an older Model 3. Looking at the M-30 op-manual, its confusing on how to connect- is a Model 1
or M1B line mixer needed to put between the M-30 and a 38?

Instead of 4 Buss In's on the M-30, when there are enough (mic, line, tape (remix) inputs already , why not 4 Aux outs instead which would seem more beneficial.
 
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So…interesting…the picture of the jack panel in the M-30 brochure shows BUSS IN jacks next to the mix buss LINE OUT jacks…no AUX OUT jacks…and the Block Diagram in the brochure also reflects this. The Operation/Maintenance manual, however, at least in my -01 revision, shows both BUSS IN and AUX OUT jacks pictured and also reflected on the Block Diagram. The AUX OUT jacks are next to the LINE OUT jacks, and the BUSS IN jacks are directly below the PGM group 1 jack cluster.

So have you actually looked at the back of your M-30 to see which version you have? I assume the version without AUX OUT jacks is an early version. This might seem like a dumb question, but two of my consoles are situated close to walls and it’s hard to actually see the jack panel, so I wondered if you’re able to actually see yours.

The other thing to consider here, though, is the AUX OUT jacks are just parallel jacks to the LINE OUT jacks…like an internal ‘Y’ cable. If your M-30 doesn’t have them, just get yourself a set of 4 RCA ‘Y’ cables…one male to two female…done…instant “AUX OUT” jacks. There are still only 4 discrete output channels…whether you’ve got AUX OUT jacks or you’re using ‘Y’ cables…you can see this visually on the Block Diagram…so you have pairs of tracks connected to each PGM group out and you manage which tracks record by using the track arming controls on the tape deck. If you need to record more than 4 tracks simultaneously you can, for instance, use direct out jacks in addition to the PGM group outputs.
 
So…interesting…the picture of the jack panel in the M-30 brochure shows BUSS IN jacks next to the mix buss LINE OUT jacks…no AUX OUT jacks…and the Block Diagram in the brochure also reflects this. The Operation/Maintenance manual, however, at least in my -01 revision, shows both BUSS IN and AUX OUT jacks pictured and also reflected on the Block Diagram. The AUX OUT jacks are next to the LINE OUT jacks, and the BUSS IN jacks are directly below the PGM group 1 jack cluster.

So have you actually looked at the back of your M-30 to see which version you have? I assume the version without AUX OUT jacks is an early version. This might seem like a dumb question, but two of my consoles are situated close to walls and it’s hard to actually see the jack panel, so I wondered if you’re able to actually see yours.

The other thing to consider here, though, is the AUX OUT jacks are just parallel jacks to the LINE OUT jacks…like an internal ‘Y’ cable. If your M-30 doesn’t have them, just get yourself a set of 4 RCA ‘Y’ cables…one male to two female…done…instant “AUX OUT” jacks. There are still only 4 discrete output channels…whether you’ve got AUX OUT jacks or you’re using ‘Y’ cables…you can see this visually on the Block Diagram…so you have pairs of tracks connected to each PGM group out and you manage which tracks record by using the track arming controls on the tape deck. If you need to record more than 4 tracks simultaneously you can, for instance, use direct out jacks in addition to the PGM group outputs.
The M-30 I have was made close to the time when Tascam first introduced the model, the two digit code 21, indicates the manufacturing date
to be 1982 (the first quarter of '82). The M-30 brochure I have shows the back of an M-30 on page 11 with a s/n thats close to mine, also a 21.

I have an original (not xerox copy) M-30 manual that was included when I bought it last year from its owner.. I think some of the manuals might have a date code as well when you look at the back cover next to 'Printed in Japan', where I see 1281, which to me sounds like it was printed in December '81 and makes sense if the M-30 and 30 series Tascams' (34 four track, etc) were introduced as new models for 1982 (nostalgia year for me, 18 and graduated high school). I am also glad the owner kept it in very nice condition, compared to the ones Ive seen on Ebay and look a bit beat-up.

I was not aware that there might be any revisions to the M-30. Usually, most Teac/Tascam recorders & mixers remain unchanged during the course of their production run. All I can think for now is the 2A/MB-20 from late '78 thru '83. The tilted side panels vs straight bracket version, and some differences in the shape of the faders and the colored knobs, etc from early to later models.

I will check online to look at various photos of the back of the M-30 as well as their serial #'s, to see if Tascam actually did add Aux Outs to later models if I can find any M-30's from '83, '84 etc... I imagine the M-30 was discontinued by '86 when the next generation of mixers came out, the M-512, 308,... 206, 106. Thus, I think the M-308 would be the closest model to compare to the M-30 in that lineup, and being newer, probably more advanced. Looks like the smallest model would then be the M-06- the nice thing about that model, being the smallest and least complicated, studying its op manual which shows the signal flow via lines/arrows, you can grasp the concepts faster. I did not think it was a recording mixer, until I noticed that despite a small model, it does have 4 Pgm out to connect to a multitrack.

A longtime friend of mine used to work in a recording studio in NY City, and used a Tascam 38 and M-30. I recall visiting him at a session he did in June '85. I will call him and say Hi, as I recall, after he eventually left the studio, he bought the M-30 and still has it, though its probably in storage. I dont know if he would remember any details on how he connected it to the eight track all these later, or which M-30 he had, it could have been made as early as mine was too depending on when his studio first acquired it.

Anyhow, I was just curious since I was just studying the op manual, not so much that I have an 8 track that I wanted to connect it to, but rather just getting better familiarized with its functions and signal routing capabilities.

I do have an M1B, so if I was in that situation, I could put that unit to use, or as you pointed out, use the Direct Outs to make up for the lack of 4 Aux Outs. I suppose another option would be to cascade the M-30 to a 2nd external mixer and use the other mixer if it has 8 track capability, for example, connecting my M-30 to my M-1516, but as I said, its not something I need to do now, its just certain configurations I am pondering in my mind so that I can get a better grasp of how the equipment would be hooked up to do certain tasks, that the Op manual does not always clarify in the best way.

For now, as was discussed in the other post, I am just studying/using the M-30 with hi fi equipment and have made progress to set the controls on the mixer so that it does what I want it to do as far as sending left/right audio from the tuner and cd player to the cassette deck and be able to listen thru headphones and amp-speakers or cassette playback.

As you can probably see, there is no actual "mixing" being done. Obviously, the tuner and cd player are playing music that are already finished songs, but even so, without needing to take out my guitars, bass, and mics just yet to learn with the mixer, I can make some progress in the meantime to learn how vintage recording mixers operate using just hi fi equipment, even if its not necessary, in that I can simply connect the cass-deck to a stereo amp instead to play and record, bypassing so many level adjustments needed when using the mixer instead. On the bright side, its good to use the controls, if the mixer sits too long inactive, its bound to cause deterioration- scratchy pots, etc... thus some use is better than no use at all, and all the signal routing scenarios is like a jigsaw puzzle to keep the brain exercised as well :)
 
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I have an original (not xerox copy) M-30 manual that was included when I bought it last year from its owner.. I think some of the manuals might have a date code as well when you look at the back cover next to 'Printed in Japan', where I see 1281, which to me sounds like it was printed in December '81…

I’m thinking you may be right about that. I’m also thinking if you look at the part number of your manual (found on the lower right corner of the title page) I’m going to take a stab and say it reads 5700026000. The last two digits are the revision number, in your case (I suspect) “00” meaning the initial version. The version I have is “01”, revision #1. I’m also going to wager in your manual the image of the jack panel on page 3 matches your M-30; no jacks below the PGM 1 jack cluster. And likely the Block Diagram in your manual (page 44 in my -01 manual) also does not have AUX OUT jacks along with the LINE OUT jacks in the upper right of the diagram. Check this out…I noticed this the other day…in the -01 manual the image of the jack panel on page 3 looks a bit haphazard…the jacks for channel 8 are truncated…something isn’t lined up right image-wise. And now I get it…rather than change the entire image they overlaid a partial image of the updated section of the backplane with the new BUSS IN jack cluster and the AUX OUT jacks in their original place. But they didn’t line the overlay up correctly…kind of funny:

IMG_0717.webp


I was not aware that there might be any revisions to the M-30. Usually, most Teac/Tascam recorders & mixers remain unchanged during the course of their production run.

I’m going to have to strongly disagree with you there…very common for there to be substantial changes during production…the 388 went through some major changes in circuit board assemblies, the addition of cooling vents, etc. The 58…there wasn’t even OU and OB models in the beginning. It was just “58”. Then they added the balanced I/O and suddenly there were two models to choose from, the non-balanced OU and the balanced OB…which required a whole separate additional internal power supply and balance amp PCB assembly…and of course new jack panel with the XLR jacks. The amplifier PCBs…multiple versions…early with 4558 opamps, polystyrene caps in key locations, non-sealed relays…later versions use the 5532 opamps, Mylar caps in place of the more expensive polystyrene, but sealed relays…just some quick examples. PCB assemblies have revision numbers too like the manual. I’ve seen at least three versions of the amp cards for the 58. And it’s not just component changes…materials, changes in the layout of the traces, additional circuits…some of the changes in the 388 PCBs were significant. Totally different layout and substantial changes to the circuitry. There are at *least* four versions of the 58 manual, and each represent significant changes implemented in the unit. You can just use that as a rule of thumb…if you see multiple versions of the manual you can assume there are substantial changes, internal and maybe external, to the product. My Studer 928 console has early and late versions with most all of the PCB assemblies redesigned…different power supplies, etc. I the case of the Studer all the PCBs are cross compatible, just different electronically…this is not always the case. My Ampex MM-1000 has early and late versions too with substantial changes to the relay logic, signal electronics, punch-in faculties, etc. Here’s one of my favs…the Audio Technica AT-RMX64 cassette multitrack/mixer…production run was from some time in 1985 to sometime in 1986…short…but there are two versions, an early and a late version. They added a 555 timer IC-based muting circuit for mitigating thump when executing or cancelling record mode. There was circuitry added to the SUB OUT 1, 2, 3 & 4 PCB assemblies related to this. And there are three different motherboards in the unit…timing circuit was added to one…totally redesigned motherboard…and that motherboard is the one that interfaces with one of the three edge connectors on the SUB boards…the changes increased the pin count of that connector from 17 to 18. So just one change (conceptually-speaking, the addition of a muting circuit) in that relatively short production run gives us a motherboard and four subgroup channel boards that are incompatible between early and late versions of the product. My Yamaha AW4416 had at least four major revisions to the main board assembly during its several year production run…significant changes in the layout and circuitry. I realize those last 4 examples are not Teac, but I would argue it is more the rule than the exception that there are substantial changes during production for a given product, including Teac products. Sometimes there is a model name change distinction to mark these revisions…other times not…Model 2, 2A and 2B for instance.

I will check online to look at various photos of the back of the M-30 as well as their serial #'s, to see if Tascam actually did add Aux Outs to later models…

Feel free to do that, but I’m telling you they did. It’s not conjecture.

…I imagine the M-30 was discontinued by '86 when the next generation of mixers came out, the M-512, 308,... 206, 106…

The M-50 (the forerunner to the M-512/M-520) was introduced in 1983, and then the M-500 series the following year in 1984. 1984 is also the year the M-106 and M-300 series consoles were introduced. The M-200 series came along in 1985.

…I think the M-308 would be the closest model to compare to the M-30 in that lineup, and being newer, probably more advanced.

Yes it’s the closest functionally, but quite different. What is the goal of comparing the M-30 and M-308?

A longtime friend of mine used to work in a recording studio in NY City, and used a Tascam 38 and M-30. I recall visiting him at a session he did in June '85. I will call him and say Hi, as I recall, after he eventually left the studio, he bought the M-30 and still has it, though its probably in storage. I dont know if he would remember any details on how he connected it to the eight track all these later, or which M-30 he had, it could have been made as early as mine was too depending on when his studio first acquired it.

Sure, but whether or not your friend remembers, the standard way to connect a 4-buss console, such as the M-30, to an 8-track machine is:

PGM 1 LINE OUT —> track 1 input
PGM 2 LINE OUT —> track 2 input
PGM 3 LINE OUT —> track 3 input
PGM 4 LINE OUT —> track 4 input
PGM 1 AUX OUT —> track 5 input
PGM 2 AUX OUT —> track 6 input
PGM 3 AUX OUT —> track 7 input
PGM 4 AUX OUT —> track 8 input

And if you don’t have the AUX OUT jacks as it is in your case, you buy a set of 4 RCA ‘Y’ cables and follow the same pattern as above…PGM 1 outputs (via ‘Y’ cable) go to tracks 1 & 5…PGM 2 tracks 2 & 6, etc.

In either case the tape deck outputs go to the 8 TAPE IN jacks on the console, track 1 to TAPE IN 1, track 2 to TAPE IN 2, etc.

…I suppose another option would be to cascade the M-30 to a 2nd external mixer and use the other mixer if it has 8 track capability…

The M-30 has 8-track capability. It was designed for it.
 
Yes, the info you mentioned matches what I have in my M-30 manual, the revision # and so forth. I did not know until now about a revised M-30. I had looked at some old posts in this forum where AUX outs were mentioned and it made me confused, wondering if the person made an error that was meant to explain the M-35 instead which does have AUX outs. I would prefer my M-30 to have them, but its not a dealbreaker. The main thing is the one I have seems to have been well maintained for its age, and all the functions work properly. Thanks for the good info on the production changes on the various models you mentioned.
 
You’re welcome. And remember, it certainly is NOT a deal-breaker your early revision M-30 is lacking the AUX OUT jacks because, literally, you accomplish the *exact* same thing by implementing 4 inexpensive RCA ‘Y’ adapters…it’s the exact same thing. Teac just started incorporating the function internally as a convenience. But there is zero disadvantage to using the ‘Y’ adapters if needed, and it is not abnormal to do so if the number of mix busses is less than the number of recording tracks, which, particularly in smaller format project studio, is completely common and normal. The other way this can be accomplished is with a patchbay where you’d have the tape deck inputs on the patchbay along with your direct and PGM outputs, and then you’d just patch whatever you need at each stage of the project…standard operating procedure. So for sure don’t sweat that your M-30 lacks the AUX OUT jacks. Enjoy!
 
Hello SB,

I do find patchbays to be very useful. I know they are common in recording studios, but I find them to be useful for home stereo equipment as well, especially when someone has a large number of components that they switch between. I have several vintage Tascam patchbays for rca & 1/4" jacks, usually not too expensive on Ebay.

In the same way that I like Teac/Tascam for recording gear, I like Sansui for their vintage 1970s hi fi amps (receivers, integrateds, and separates) (and Infinity for speakers).

I recall you once had reviewed a Sansui RA-500 reverb unit. Thus, I wanted to mention a very cool device Sansui made that I dont know if you had heard of, the AX-7. They also can be found on Ebay from time to time. They function in a similar way to the DBX Route Selector, perhaps even better. The AX-7 is all black and can accomodate rack handles, and matches perfectly with a Sansui AU-717 in a Sansui GX-5 rack.

The AX-7 is partially a mixer as well- you can connect an electric guitar, keyboard, mics to it, add reverb and so forth, but how I use it for is to switch between the components in my hi fi system- located in the basement mancave (the M-30 is an upstairs bedroom- turned music room).

I have a Technics turntable, Sony X55ES cd player, Auris streamer, Teac A-3440 with 2a/MB-20, Aiwa tape deck, along with several Sansui preamps.

Thus, I can play a variety of formats: phono (my album collection), cds or sacd's, Spotify streaming, cassettes, and open reel tape.

I can connect all of them to the Sansui AX-7. The op manual for the AX-7 (similar to DBX Route Selector manual) mentions only using tape machines to connect
to the three available Tape Rec/Play jacks, but I actually connect my 3 preamps to them. Unlike the main amp, preamps are easy to switch between because they dont need to be physically connected to speakers.

There is one Source Input on the AX-7, and the idea I came up with was to use a Patchbay into the source input, thus all those components I have can be switched between by simply selecting them on the AX-7 selector knob, and just moving two wires on the patchbay (one for left, the other for right channel of music).

To summarize, I can select any source (TT, cd, etc..) and run each one thru three different preamps via the AX-7, out to my main amp driving the speakers.

Ps: in 1978-79, Sansui also made the MA-7 with cue speakers. The MA-7 reminds me a bit of the Teac MB-20, with its metering functions, although for some reason, the MA-7 was not made in large quantities, so they are a bit rare to find, and some folks will price them accordingly because of that. The cue speakers look cool, but the actual sound quality is not that great.
 
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