Question on M-30 mixer

[BeatleFred]

I had a little time over the holiday weekend and just wanted to use the 1982 Tascam M-30 I have, rather than let it sit inactive too long.
I have a few other Tascam boards, but anyhow... I just connected a cd player, tuner and cassette deck to it for now, its not being utilized for multitrack recording
as it was designed for, hopefully I can get to that in the near future...

I wanted to go thru a bunch of old cassettes I have, I used to tape alot of music from FM radio. I figured I might dub some music from either the cd player
or the tuner onto the cass-deck as well via the M-30 and listen thru headphones or thru the Roland power amp and Samson PA speakers that I have in my collection of various equipment.

The M-30 has a monitor out, thus I connected to amp/speakers, and a Submix out which I connected to the cass-deck Tape Play Input so that I could
dub music onto it from cd or tuner.

My question is: It does not seem like the headphones are independent from the amp-speakers. Did I overlook something simple?

I turned the headphone level to max and its too soft, but if I turn the fader and other controls up to make it louder, it ALSO makes the amp-speaker
level louder, which is NOT what I want. I thought I could control the volume of them independently. ??

The Roland power amp does not have a volume control, but it has a 1/4 jack/cable which is what the Samson PA speakers accept.

I could try to replace the Roland with a hi fi stereo receiver integrated amp that has a volume knob, so that if I wanted to hear music louder on the M-30
connected headphones, I could then turn the volume down on the hi fi amp, but the issue is, unlike a power amp, a receiver or integrated would preamp the
signal a 2nd time, as the first preamp is the M-30. The other issue is the hi fi amp is not a pa amp, it does not use 1/4" jack/cable as the Samson speakers do.

But to summarize, and get to the point, in the setup I have, I cant get operate the headphones and amp-speakers independently?

 

[sweetbeats]

Correct.

The M-30 headphone amplier input is fed by the monitor select switch, which is fed by the MONITOR level pot and the SUBMIX MASTER pot…the source select switch determines which feed is love to the MONITOR OUT jacks and headphone amp…so, in other words, the headphone level pot is post MONITOR or SUBMIX MASTER pot. So step 1 is to adjust the MONITOR and/or SUBMIX MASTER level pots for the correct level at your monitor speakers, and then adjust the headphone level pot for the desired level in the cans. Any adjustments made after that to the MONITOR or SUBMIX MASTER level pots will need to be addressed by subsequent adjustments to the headphone level control.

 

[BeatleFred]

Hi SB,

I can see when a mixer is used with home stereo equipment, there are several more level settings to be made thru the mixer path as compared
to just connecting a tape deck and headphones to a stereo amp for recording or playback. I was looking at the M-30 op manual which has good info, though its explanations are focused more on how someone would actually use it to record their band, with a bunch of instruments and mics hooked up,
and ensuring each musician can hear themselves properly during overdubs and so forth. That is understandable, though it can make some things harder to grasp for someone who is just using the board by themself and not needing to utilize all those functions, and just wants to use some hi fi components, and give the M-30 a little exercise, so that the board's controls get some use and dont sit there to let them deteriotate until its needs servicing. And once the signal routing is better understood, then of course, the board can always be used for what it was designed to do for home musicians and their recording projects.

Of course, its understood that when connecting equipment, its always preferred to have the signal paths between in & outs be as direct as possible.
Thus, given the setup: cd player, cassette deck, and tuner, what would be the preferred way to connect them to the M-30 for the purpose of playing all three of those sources, and to record onto the deck at times. Listening would be done via headphones- convenient jack in front on the M-30 or thru an amp and pa speakers. In this case, as I described previously, it just so happens the Roland power amp has no volume control, and the Samson speakers are not self powered, so no volume control on that either- thus, how I came to wonder with these two components, about the M-30's ability or not to have the volume level of the 'phones, and the amp-speakers be heard at separate levels from each other. With no volume knobs on the power amp, it seems that the speakers will be heard loud thus have to keep the mixer's knob down, but in doing so, it ALSO keeps the headphones down too low. I will look into what you mentioned and see if I can further adjust, otherwise, the other option to fix it would be to replace the amp with another one with a volume knob that can be shut off, or if replace the speakers too, shut the speaker selector switch off on the amp.

I was also giving some thought to the hookup: basically, the cd player, tuner and cass-deck are line level devices, so no mics involved, thus can use the line inputs which are rca jacks that match to the devices, no rca to 1/4" cables needed, but I was wondering if it would make any difference as far as the signal path goes to the monitoring section if the Tape inputs were used instead (also rca's) when it comes to recording onto the deck and playing it back.

I suppose the tape deck can be thought of as the 2 track mastering recorder, so I connected to the M-30 via the Submix out. (dont know if the amp-speaker volume issue would change if I swapped them- submix out for amp-speakers, and Mon out for tape deck? Or, could the tape deck be thought of a four track machine and connect it to the M-30 in the same way, except just using two tracks (left & right sides of audio) instead of four?

Going back to shorter-preferred signal paths, I was thinking if M-30 Direct outs would be beneficial, but I then realized, several devices and several of their direct outs wont all fit to the tape deck inputs, its not a multitrack, the cass-deck only has one (Playback) input.

Eventually, I did get it to work the tape deck recording output (left and right) was connected back to two line's (or tape in's) on the M-30. Finally, I noticed the submix knob had to be turned up and I think a few others controls to see the meters levels come on on the tape deck when put into record-ready mode.

Another idea I was pondering: putting the M1B line mixer to use. It has all rca jacks, so an option might be to connect the cd player, tape deck, and tuner to the M1B and run it out to the M-30, and let the M1B switch between those three devices if it makes things more straightforward. (if so, would the M1B outputs go to the Buss In of the M-30)?

If you still have enough much appreciated patience to keep reading this far, you might recall in my collection of mixers, I have the 2A/MB-20, M-106, M-30 and M-1516. Thus, I was wondering how these other models would compare in their functionality if I configured the cd, tuner and deck to them instead vs M-30.

Since the 2A is connected to the MB-20 per the MB-20 op manual hookup diagram, it only leaves the E & F inputs on the 2A to connect just one device to, not three, so I guess that would be a good use for the M1B, and use M1B to 2a/MB-20.

I know you have experience with the M-106 and like that unit. I know the 106 was made about three years after the M-30, but I was thinking the M-30 would be more advanced, however just taking a quick glance, the 106 has four slider groups on the right side vs just one master fader on the M-30, and 106 has aux send/return controls vs none on M-30 (I guess just Send/Rcv on them). Just curious, I will take a look, wondering if the headphone vs amp-speakers volume settings work the same way on M-106 as it does with M-30 in terms of how independently they can be made from each other. When all is said and done, atleast my brain is getting a good workout from all these thought experiments, lol

Ps: even with all the writing (as I drink my coffee), another thought flashed in my mind- if I were to use the M1B line mixer with the cd, tuner and deck, the 1B has level controls and headphones jacks (not on the MX-80 for example), so I imagine I could listen thru the M1B 'phones instead of M-30 without needing to worry about matching levels to the amp-speakers.

 

[sweetbeats]

I know you have experience with the M-106 and like that unit. I know the 106 was made about three years after the M-30, but I was thinking the M-30 would be more advanced, however just taking a quick glance, the 106 has four slider groups on the right side vs just one master fader on the M-30, and 106 has aux send/return controls vs none on M-30 (I guess just Send/Rcv on them). Just curious, I will take a look, wondering if the headphone vs amp-speakers volume settings work the same way on M-106 as it does with M-30 in terms of how independently they can be made from each other.

Well there’s a lot to unpack here.

First of all, you wanted to exercise the M-30. So let’s make that work for what you are doing. There’s a lot of flexibility in the build if you understand all the ins and outs and the different control sections…there is zero sense in adding to the complexity of the setup by combining the M-1B and the M-30. The M-30 already has, essentially, an M-1B onboard. You should just use what’s there and I’ll tell you how.

Sure you could use the M-1B all by itself. Connect your devices to the line inputs 1-6, mix to the summing buss, the line out jacks have a separate level control from the headphones…they aren’t in series. The MASTER level control feeds the LINE OUT jacks and the HEADPHONES control feeds the headphone jack. Done. But you wanted to exercise the M-30.

The M-106…yes I like it…it has a lot of features packed into the compact package making it a flexible little mixer that has vintage charm to it, but it’s limited compared to the M-30…not as flexible…and guess what? The MONITOR level control controls the level to the monitor out jacks and the headphone amp. So now you don’t even have series controls, you just have one knob for both sets of outputs. Maybe that’s easier to manage, but it’s even less flexible than the M-30. And a lot of people too would argue the draw of the transformer mic preamps on the M-30. At the end of the day the M-106 is really only suited to support a 4-track machine whereas, though it might not look it at first glance, the M-30 will completely support 8-track recording, and you said it doesn’t have any AUX bussing. Wrong. And you said it doesn’t have “four slider groups”, wrong again…partially.

The M-30 inputs 1-8 feed a 2-channel AUX buss (configured as a stereo buss), 4 mono summing busses and a direct out. Now you’re looking at your M-30 thinking “I know about the direct out, and I see the assign buttons to the 4 mix busses…but a stereo AUX buss? And I still only see one master fader, no individual faders.” You’re right, the input channels feed the 4 mix busses and there is just a single quad-ganged master fader to control the overall level to the 4 groups. You have to use the input channel faders to control the mix to those groups. But you do also have the 4 monitor level pots to be able to create a mix off of the 4 groups. It’s a little less convenient than 4 faders one for each mix buss, but the monitor mix section is not a bad consolation prize. Now AUX bussing is where I totally disagree. Look at the SUBMIX section…what do you think that is? I don’t like how Teac explained this in the manual. Honestly the SUBMIX section is just a section of 8 stereo AUX send controls, and they may as well be sitting in the input channel strips 1-8. But they pulled them out of the input channel strips and put them off to the side. Okay fine. But those are the AUX send controls for input channels 1-8. Here’s the cool part about it…each SUBMIX channel can source its relevant input (in other words SUBMIX channel 1 corresponds to input channel 1, channel 2 to input 2, etc…) either PRE insert/EQ/fader, or POST input fader, -OR- it can source the relevant channel’s TAPE input independent of the input channel source. And it’s selectable per channel. It’s an AUX buss. With its own MASTER control. SO…if you want separate level controls to your amp and headphones, hook up your line level sources to inputs 1-6, make sure each channel is sourced to LINE (if you set a channel to REMIX you’ll get a wicked feedback loop on that channel, so be mindful), assign odd channels to group 1, assign even channels to group 2, raise the faders, raise the master fader, turn up the levels of the monitor mixer channels 1 & 2 and pan channel 1 hard L, and channel 2 hard R, select MONITOR for the source of the headphones, turn up the MONITOR level knob and then the headphones level knob. This is your headphone mix. You can set the MONITOR level knob to a good level to feed the headphones level knob and then leave the MONITOR level knob alone…trim/adjust the headphones level knob to taste. Now to get your amp feed with a separate level control independent of the headphone level control, connect the direct out jacks 1-6 to the corresponding TAPE IN jacks. Set the SUBMIX channels 1-6 to source TAPE. Pan the odd channels hard L, the even channels hard R. Adjust the level controls to taste. Connect the SUBMIX OUT jacks to the input jacks of your monitor amp. Turn up the SUBMIX MASTER level control. This should independently control the signal level to the monitor amp. By doing it this way both feeds have independent level controls, AND each feed follows the same mix. You’ll hear the same changes reflected in the headphones and the SUBMIX OUT jacks as you adjust your input channel mix.

There are other ways to do this…I’ve never even seen an M-30 in the flesh, so M-30-o-philes can go ahead and school me, but there are ways to have the mixes be independent of each other too…one be pre fade and the other post fade, etc. The other advantage to the above is you have access to the EQ section too for each input channel if you need to make adjustments. Which is another plus to the M-30 compared to the M-106 or the M-30’s predecessor the Teac Model 3…the M-30 has 3-band EQ with swept mid and lo bands, while the other two have 2-band EQ, the M-106 fixed, and the Model 3 with two selectable fixed frequencies per band. It’s also nice the M-30 input channels have individual kill switches.

Anyway, study that…this would really get you exercising a lot on your M-30, which was the whole point, right?

 

[BeatleFred]

Well there’s a lot to unpack here.

First of all, you wanted to exercise the M-30. So let’s make that work for what you are doing. There’s a lot of flexibility in the build if you understand all the ins and outs and the different control sections…there is zero sense in adding to the complexity of the setup by combining the M-1B and the M-30. The M-30 already has, essentially, an M-1B onboard. You should just use what’s there and I’ll tell you how.

Sure you could use the M-1B all by itself. Connect your devices to the line inputs 1-6, mix to the summing buss, the line out jacks have a separate level control from the headphones…they aren’t in series. The MASTER level control feeds the LINE OUT jacks and the HEADPHONES control feeds the headphone jack. Done. But you wanted to exercise the M-30.

The M-106…yes I like it…it has a lot of features packed into the compact package making it a flexible little mixer that has vintage charm to it, but it’s limited compared to the M-30…not as flexible…and guess what? The MONITOR level control controls the level to the monitor out jacks and the headphone amp. So now you don’t even have series controls, you just have one knob for both sets of outputs. Maybe that’s easier to manage, but it’s even less flexible than the M-30. And a lot of people too would argue the draw of the transformer mic preamps on the M-30. At the end of the day the M-106 is really only suited to support a 4-track machine whereas, though it might not look it at first glance, the M-30 will completely support 8-track recording, and you said it doesn’t have any AUX bussing. Wrong. And you said it doesn’t have “four slider groups”, wrong again…partially.

The M-30 inputs 1-8 feed a 2-channel AUX buss (configured as a stereo buss), 4 mono summing busses and a direct out. Now you’re looking at your M-30 thinking “I know about the direct out, and I see the assign buttons to the 4 mix busses…but a stereo AUX buss? And I still only see one master fader, no individual faders.” You’re right, the input channels feed the 4 mix busses and there is just a single quad-ganged master fader to control the overall level to the 4 groups. You have to use the input channel faders to control the mix to those groups. But you do also have the 4 monitor level pots to be able to create a mix off of the 4 groups. It’s a little less convenient than 4 faders one for each mix buss, but the monitor mix section is not a bad consolation prize. Now AUX bussing is where I totally disagree. Look at the SUBMIX section…what do you think that is? I don’t like how Teac explained this in the manual. Honestly the SUBMIX section is just a section of 8 stereo AUX send controls, and they may as well be sitting in the input channel strips 1-8. But they pulled them out of the input channel strips and put them off to the side. Okay fine. But those are the AUX send controls for input channels 1-8. Here’s the cool part about it…each SUBMIX channel can source its relevant input (in other words SUBMIX channel 1 corresponds to input channel 1, channel 2 to input 2, etc…) either PRE insert/EQ/fader, or POST input fader, -OR- it can source the relevant channel’s TAPE input independent of the input channel source. And it’s selectable per channel. It’s an AUX buss. With its own MASTER control. SO…if you want separate level controls to your amp and headphones, hook up your line level sources to inputs 1-6, make sure each channel is sourced to LINE (if you set a channel to REMIX you’ll get a wicked feedback loop on that channel, so be mindful), assign odd channels to group 1, assign even channels to group 2, raise the faders, raise the master fader, turn up the levels of the monitor mixer channels 1 & 2 and pan channel 1 hard L, and channel 2 hard R, select MONITOR for the source of the headphones, turn up the MONITOR level knob and then the headphones level knob. This is your headphone mix. You can set the MONITOR level knob to a good level to feed the headphones level knob and then leave the MONITOR level knob alone…trim/adjust the headphones level knob to taste. Now to get your amp feed with a separate level control independent of the headphone level control, connect the direct out jacks 1-6 to the corresponding TAPE IN jacks. Set the SUBMIX channels 1-6 to source TAPE. Pan the odd channels hard L, the even channels hard R. Adjust the level controls to taste. Connect the SUBMIX OUT jacks to the input jacks of your monitor amp. Turn up the SUBMIX MASTER level control. This should independently control the signal level to the monitor amp. By doing it this way both feeds have independent level controls, AND each feed follows the same mix. You’ll hear the same changes reflected in the headphones and the SUBMIX OUT jacks as you adjust your input channel mix.

There are other ways to do this…I’ve never even seen an M-30 in the flesh, so M-30-o-philes can go ahead and school me, but there are ways to have the mixes be independent of each other too…one be pre fade and the other post fade, etc. The other advantage to the above is you have access to the EQ section too for each input channel if you need to make adjustments. Which is another plus to the M-30 compared to the M-106 or the M-30’s predecessor the Teac Model 3…the M-30 has 3-band mid-sweep EQ, while the other two have 2-band EQ. It’s also nice the M-30 input channels have individual kill switches.

Anyway, study that…this would really get you exercising a lot on your M-30, which was the whole point, right?

 

[BeatleFred]

Alrighty, I am going to try to implement your suggestions/instructions when I am back at home tonight. I have been writing notes as I am
using the M-30, which helps to arrive at a better understanding of what works, after finding out what does Not work. In other words, after I
hook up the hi fi components to the board, I then try out all the various controls on the board to see if the signal is going to where I want it to
and if I can hear it. Using a vintage recording mixer with a cassette deck to record/play onto is not unusual, to the mixer its just a line level device.
Not any different than using say a Tascam 22-2 instead to record onto and play back from. The only difference is the 22-2 or any mastering recorder would
be suited for making pro recordings, whereas the cass-deck is more mid-fi for me to go thru a collection of tapes and see whats on them and so forth. But
regardless, the techniques involved should still be the same in terms of learning how to use the mixer. I just prefer to learn the board this way- with hi fi components
before proceeding to set up my own mics and my guitars, and recording/overdubbing some tracks. I think in the long run, once I know the board well from the hi fi hookups,
I think it will enable me to move ahead more efficiently when using the board to do my own recordings, or get together with a friend to record a song together.

So, whether its a 22-2 I wanted to dub songs from cd's on using the M-30, or a cass-deck to do the same, the connections and signal routing should be the same for
both devices. Of course, the easy way is to not even use a mixer... a regular hi fi amp with tape rec/play jacks, aux (for cd player) and recording selector switch would
be the most convenient way, but as you know by now from all the writing Ive done, the Point is not so much convenience, its just to get a better understanding of how
a mixer like the M-30 operates.

Last night, when I was fiddling around some more, and not having seen your reply yet, I was not able to get the headphones and the monitor (amp-speakers) levels
adjusted to each other in an acceptable balance. The headphones (with its knob) full max was too soft, whereas the amp was too loud, or rather, the amp (music) can be heard
loud thru the speakers without needing to turn up the Submix knob much at all.

Just to clarify, its not like its a calamity if the headphones and monitors lack independence from each other. My first thought was just that if you look at the brochure or manual of a mixer, the manufacturer boasts about its features as if the thing could fly to the moon by itself, to which I am thinking, okay,,, but whats so hard about having the headphones and monitors be kept separate from each other, especially if its late at night, and you want to hear more-loud in phones, and more-soft on the monitors to not annoy others in the house. But I realize, rather than think of it as shortcoming or a design cost compromise, the workaround is simply to use an amp with a volume control, or if dont have one available, just shut the amp off if dont need to use it while listening to headphones and can then turn the Submix knob up to hear it louder thru 'phones and the amp wont be blasting as its powered off. Most folks nowadays use self powered monitors, I do have a pair of M Audio's myself- thought thats in use on another setup with my M-1516. Even if I did use it with my M-30, the left and right Volume knobs are behind the speakers, so it can be hassle if space is limited to often keep turning the speakers around to adjust the volume... So a hi fi stereo amp would be ideal, the only drawback to that I can see is two stages of preamplification (preamp of hi fi amp, preamping the signal that was already preamped by the mixer).

What I did do last night by the time I was done for the evening, I have an ART Dual Pre, its small and lighweight, so I patched that in between the mixer outs and the Roland SPA-120, which enabled me to control the volume of the amp-speakers.

I noticed that when I put the cass-deck in record-ready mode, in order to get the meters on the deck to move up to 0VU or a little higher, the M-30 Submix knob has to be turned up, if its not, the recording level will be too low to dub music onto the deck. But as often mentioned, the submix turned up will be heard too loud thru speakers. But I did eventually find a setting that I was able to turn the submix up to get the cass deck meters going high enough, and shut off sound to the speakers. I wrote it down in my notes at home, thus I can refer to them if I forget how something was set-up from previous use of the board.

Thanks so much for your instructions, they wont go to waste, I am going to try them out and put them in my notes as well for reference.

The only question I have: you instructed to connect the submix outs to the monitor amp. But the submix out is connected to the cassette deck, to be able to record onto it.
So, to clarify, are you saying to do a swap and connect the submix out to the amp-in, and connect the M-30 Monitor outs to the cassette deck Play-in jacks?

In the future, I envision if I were to use the M-30 for a project thats more in-line with how the Op manual instructions are written or how a home musician would use it, a scenario might be I recorded some tracks with my A-3440 thru the M-30 and ready to mix down to the 22-2. But I might have the same situation as now: I might want to hear thru the headphones louder but not so loud thru the amp/speakers during the mixdown phase, thus I would know what to do, since I learned from my current situation with a cass deck in place of the mastering recorder connected to the Submix jacks. ( I presume the 22-2 would be connected to the M-30 Submix jacks and the Submix knob would have to be turned up in order to get the VU meters on the 22-2 to 0vu or higher, along with the 22-2 level knob turned up to mix down to...)

 

[sweetbeats]

You keep referencing the SUBMIX MASTER knob. Tell me again how you are using the SUBMIX section with your hi-fi equipment?

I thought you were having challenges getting the right balance between the MONITOR OUT jacks and the headphones between the MONITOR level control and the headphone level control. So how does the SUBMIX MASTER control come into play?

 

[BeatleFred]

Hi SB: I will check when I get back home later on, I have my written notes there as well, so I can tell you exactly how I have the various controls set and will post that
later tonight.

For now, visualizing my setup remotely, what I do know for sure, the 3 sources are tuner (FM radio), cd player, and cassette deck. They are plugged into the Line inputs
of the M-30, each device takes up two channels (one for left audio and the adjacent channel for right audio). I dont know if using the Tape in's instead would matter, compared to the Line's in. The voltage level is the same for both, but whether its makes things any different for all the monitoring functions on the right side of the board, not sure as of yet.

The Roland power amp drives a pair of Samson XP-150 PA speakers. (the XP-150 when new came with its own mixer but it has a fan inside which is too loud, so I dont use it).

The amp connects to the Monitor out jacks of the M-30, and the cassette deck (Play in) connected to the SUBMIX out jacks- thus, how it relates to the Submix master knob. Unlike the cd player or tuner which only output music, the cassette deck serves to play music, but also to record onto it as well. Thus, the submix out of the M-30 goes to the Playback in jacks of the deck. And the record-out of the deck (left and right audio) goes back to the Line in (two adjacent strips, for left and right audio) of the M-30. Again- not sure if going back to the Tape in, instead of Line, matters.

Sennheiser headphones simply connect to the front jack of M-30. (I do have an MH-40 headphone amplifier if needed to use it instead)

I will let you know what the various controls are set to later when I am home, so we can see if I did anything incorrectly.

I "fixed" the issue by inserting a preamp between the M-30 and the Roland power amp, so that I can control the volume of music playing from Roland amp and Samson speakers by now using the L & R volume controls on the ART usb dual pre.

But it would still be interesting to know if I can get better independent control of phones vs amp-speakers.

So to address your question about the Submix: the cass deck is connected to the Submix M-30 jacks. I dont see where else or better to connect it to instead. The only other Outs are the Monitors for the amp-speakers. Would it make a difference if they are swapped and connect tape deck to M-30 mon jacks, and amp to Submix jacks?

So, if the tape deck is connected to Submix, doesnt the Submix master control knob need to be used? I was not seeing how it cant be used, for one thing- I cant get the recording level set high enough on the cass deck if the submix knob is not turned up. But when turning that up, it also makes the amp-speakers music too loud, though I did find a setting last night that shut the sound off thru the speakers, while keeping the submix knob up to drive the recording level onto the tape deck. I will check what that setting was later on, as I dont recall what is was right now....

 

[sweetbeats]

…I dont know if using the Tape in's instead would matter, compared to the Line's in. The voltage level is the same for both, but whether its makes things any different for all the monitoring functions on the right side of the board, not sure as of yet.

TAPE IN vs LINE IN electronically makes no difference. Functionally it does. If you use the TAPE IN jacks for your hi-fi equipment then my plan for how you get independent level control for your headphones and monitor amp does not work.

The amp connects to the Monitor out jacks of the M-30, and the cassette deck (Play in) connected to the SUBMIX out jacks- thus, how it relates to the Submix master knob.

That’s not how I would do it. By using the SUBMIX section to feed your cassette deck you tie up the functionality of the SUBMIX section for that purpose…which is to send a stereo sum of your inputs to the cassette deck inputs. I would feed the cassette deck inputs with the mix group 1 & 2 LINE OUT jacks, and return the output jacks of the cassette deck to the TAPE IN jacks on channels 5 & 6 or 7 & 8. That way you can feed the tape deck with the same mix that is feeding your monitor amp (SUBMIX OUT…see my post previous to my last post with detailed instructions), and headphone amp (via the MONITOR buss), and have some flexible control of the return of the tape deck outputs to the console and choose to monitor them during recording (using the SUBMIX section if needed). Is it a three-head cassette deck? If so, you’ll need to take care not to set the input channels to which it is connected to REMIX while recording and monitoring off the playback head…feedback loop. You really shouldn’t have need to do this other than for quick verification of recording. The tangle is you will only be able to do this check using the monitor amp and speakers. If you must be able to do this in the headphones as well then you need to set the input channels’ sources to which the cassette deck is connected via the TAPE IN jacks to REMIX, and assign those channels to groups 3 & 4 and monitor by turning up the MONITOR mixer channels 3 & 4 and panning the hard L and hard R respectively.

…Again- not sure if going back to the Tape in, instead of Line, matters.

Again, electronically no, functionally yes.

I will let you know what the various controls are set to later when I am home, so we can see if I did anything incorrectly.

This is not necessary; too much detail that is not helpful or needed.

But it would still be interesting to know if I can get better independent control of phones vs amp-speakers.

I provided detailed instructions to do this in my post previous to my last post.

So to address your question about the Submix: the cass deck is connected to the Submix M-30 jacks. I dont see where else or better to connect it to instead.

See instructions above.

The only other Outs are the Monitors for the amp-speakers.

No. The 4 summing groups also have outputs, labeled LINE OUT each.

Would it make a difference if they are swapped and connect tape deck to M-30 mon jacks, and amp to Submix jacks?

Electronically no, functionally yes.

So, if the tape deck is connected to Submix, doesnt the Submix master control knob need to be used?

Yes, if you connect it that way, but I’m suggesting you use the SUBMIX section to drive your monitor amp, not your cassette decks.

But, again, you should be able to connect the monitor amp to the MONITOR OUT jacks and headphones to the headphone jack and modulate the MONITOR level knob and headphone level knobs to use the one buss for both…you simply turn the latter down if you have to turn the former up. And if you don’t need to monitor using the monitor amp just shut it off. Or do what you did and put something in between to manage signal level. My long drawn out exercise using the SUBMIX OUT jacks to the monitor amp is just one way to do it with your setup if you want fully independent level control at the console. It’s not something you *must* do, it’s a thing you *can* do.

I was not seeing how it cant be used, for one thing- I cant get the recording level set high enough on the cass deck if the submix knob is not turned up. But when turning that up, it also makes the amp-speakers music too loud…

You have many output paths on the console. Try to use them strategically rather than bundling multiple things on one set of outputs.

 

[BeatleFred]

Hi SB,

With your latest reply, I think the sun is finally starting to peek through the clouds, so to speak in terms of understanding the more efficient way
to implement signal routing via the M-30 (with my 62 year old brain, 63 not far off).

One major oversight on my part that you shone light on: The 4 line outs. I should have realized they were available. I think the reason why I overlooked that was because I was used to seeing four group faders on my M-1516 which I have in the same room. The M-30 only has the one master fader (like on 2A/MB-20). Had I used the M-1516 instead or even the M-106 (also with four group faders), I probably would have thought to use the line outs to interface with the deck. I had thought about the Direct outs to see if that would bypass some unnecessary signal pathways to dub cd's or fm radio onto the deck. But for some reason, I just did not realize the Line outs were there.

Basically, the cassette deck can play the same role as a two track mastering recorder. Certainly, many home musician hobbyists without much money to afford higher end equipment , have used decks to mix down to. So, I looked thru the M-30 op manual to see what it had to say about the use and connections of a two track recorder and then apply the same info to the cass-deck. But there is only one diagram on page 37 showing a two track, utilizing the monitor outs to an amp.

I think the other thing that threw me off, when looking at the M-30 manual, the line outs were intended to connect to a multitrack open reel machine, and since I was using a deck instead, as if it was a 2 track device to record and play back, I somehow just did not focus on the line outs. If I did, then Yes, use those for the deck as you clarified, and which I will do this evening.

One thing I will say, I do like the M-1516 very much, its the largest mixer of the four I have and the made in the early 90's (vs 70's 2A and 80
s 106 & M-30), but if I wanted to connect a deck to it or a 22-2, it has an EXT in and a button for that, so very simple to connect to the EXT in, hit one button and the sound comes thru the headphones plugged into the jack.

Anyhow, thanks very much for the useful info & guidance!

 

[BeatleFred]

UPDATE:

I changed the connections, so that the two of the four line outs on the M-30 now go to the Play In of the cass-deck (nothing connected to submix in or out) I already had the cass-deck Rec out going back to the M-30, except it was going back to the Line in, so I moved it to the Tape In. Not sure if keeping it in Line would matter. And if matters if the tuner and cd player go to line or tape in. The amp is still in the Mon out, not submix out, if I should switch, let me know...

Anyhow, it looks like everything now works as expected, though I still want to let the signal flow connections sink in a bit to make sure I fully understand them.

One interesting observation: I have an ART usb Dual pre connected between M-30 mon out and the Roland power amp input, which gives volume control to the Roland amp driving the speakers.

The ART preamp has a 1/8" headphone jack, but I am still using the headhones connected to the M-30. The ART preamp has two knobs in the back, Mix and Level knob (as shown/explained in its online operating manual pdf). I realized after a little time gone by, I can adjust the level of music heard thru the M-30 headphones and the amp-speakers independently by turning these two knobs.

https://artproaudio.com/microphonepreamps/product/306671/usbdualpreps

 

[sweetbeats]

I changed the connections, so that the two of the four line outs on the M-30 now go to the Play In of the cass-deck (nothing connected to submix in or out) I already had the cass-deck Rec out going back to the M-30, except it was going back to the Line in, so I moved it to the Tape In. Not sure if keeping it in Line would matter. And if matters if the tuner and cd player go to line or tape in. The amp is still in the Mon out, not submix out, if I should switch, let me know...

Please refer back to my previous posts. I commented on this several times. It makes no difference electronically. It does make a difference functionally. My suggestion to move the outputs from the cassette deck to the TAPE IN jacks is for the purpose of gaining independent level control to your monitor amp and headphones using the controls embedded on the M-30 alone; one of the pieces to the solution. Again…this is not something *must* do…it’s something you *can* do. It is merely a suggestion because you were wanting to “exercise” your M-30 AND were asking about independent level control. So I’ve provided instructions for how you can achieve that…at least one way you can achieve it.

One interesting observation: I have an ART usb Dual pre connected between M-30 mon out and the Roland power amp input, which gives volume control to the Roland amp driving the speakers.

The ART preamp has a 1/8" headphone jack, but I am still using the headhones connected to the M-30. The ART preamp has two knobs in the back, Mix and Level knob (as shown/explained in its online operating manual pdf). I realized after a little time gone by, I can adjust the level of music heard thru the M-30 headphones and the amp-speakers independently by turning these two knobs.

Yes…as I responded earlier there are many ways to achieve the functionality you are seeking…adding devices to the chain is one way to do that. I think at this point you have the information you can study, between the manual, my comments, as well as many, many others online who know the console better than I do, to experiment and arrive at some satisfactory set of conclusions. Best of luck and have fun!