Tascam 58-OB Story...

[sweetbeats]

One step closer...maybe...

Danny,

I'm thinking there may be some significant differences between the 58 and MS16 function switch panels.

The 58 panel has, from left to right, the remote-enable switch, the output monitor switches (input, sync and repro), and the rec-ready and sync pre-load switches for each track. That's it.

The pitch-control LED, located below the power button on the left-hand side of the dress panel flashes red when the capstan is being servo-controlled. Maybe that's the equivalent of the synclock indicator light to which you were referring?

Now, I did just resolve one part of the issue. Previously to just moments ago, the REC status LED on the transport control panel would also flash red along with the pitch control LED...not supposed to happen according to the manual. I was also having the problem where in fast-wind the manual lifter retractor lever wouldn't retract the lifters when the lever was actuated...the transport had to be in SPOOL-wind in order for the lever to retract the lifters...also related to this, the mute circuit was always active when in fast-wind...also not supposed to happen, according to the manual. Regardless of the transport status, if the lifters are extended, moving the lifter retractor lever slightly left is supposed to defeat the mute circuit. Well......its funny. Y'know I did all that conversing with Jimmy at Tascam regarding the interface cable schematics, studied them intently prior to building the cable; even redrafted the schematics on my computer so that clean and legible copies could be available to the masses and I still included a jumper wire that is supposed to be excluded on the 40 and 50-series decks...I had an extra wire in there. It all made sense when I was talking with Jimmy, but then many moons passed between then and when I actually started putting the cable together, and I neglected to re-read the footnotes. Finally paid attention to those notes on the schematic, opened the cable up and clipped the jumper. Answers a lot of questions I had when I was building it...How many hours did I spend looking at that schematic...not enough apparently.

So now the lifter mute circuit and retractor lever behave as the manual says they should, and the pitch control LED is the only one flashing when the capstan is under synchronizer control.

I still have the runanway problem, but maybe I'm closer??

I'm going to test the cable again with my DMM to confirm everything is patched correctly, and to make sure the semi-conductors are alive.

BTW, I mentioned in an earlier post that I am not sure if I can trust my DMM. I have a used Fluke 85 on the way, which has much better RMS voltage bandwidth, and better frequency-counter sensitivity.

Also, BTW, this is for you Pianodano...yes the specs for the ES-50 say it can read TC at 100x play speed, it doesn't do it. You were right. I couldn't tell before because of the mute circuit issue. I can now confirm TC repro is happening in fast-wind via the VU meter, but it is not until the deck slows down to something between fast-wind and SPOOL-wind that the synchronizer picks up the code again.

Does the 58 have a lifter defeat/ mute button on the left hand corner ?

No lifter-defeat/mute button. The only lifter-related control is the manual lifter retractor lever, which has an integral micro-switch that defeats the mute circuit.

then push the track 8 INPUT button. See if the track 8 input indicator turns orange.

I don't have "INPUT" buttons, just the rec-ready and sync/pre-load buttons. Are you talking about the syn/pre-load buttons? Mine have yellow LED indicators...

 

[pianodano]

Danny,


The 58 panel has, from left to right, the remote-enable switch, the output monitor switches (input, sync and repro), and the rec-ready and sync pre-load switches for each track. That's it.

The pitch-control LED, located below the power button on the left-hand side of the dress panel flashes red when the capstan is being servo-controlled. Maybe that's the equivalent of the synclock indicator light to which you were referring?

Hmm . . .Cory, maybe I'm not following along to well and I hope I haven't sent you off on a wild goose chase but. . . I find it hard to believe that Tascam didn't provide some means of visually indicating that track 8 is set to synclock, IE: ALWAYS PASSING AUDIO . . . . even when all the other tracks are muted during fast winds. Basically, when mine is set to enable lif/def/mute that really means "EXTERNAL CONTROL OF", and it also means that ALL TRACKS are muted remotely. To sync, I then must enable the input monitor button on track 16 (which is a special track) to enable that track to pass audio at all times under all transport conditions independently of the other tracks, which it visually indicates by the SYNC track (track 16 here) input enable light turning a different color. Could it possibly be that there is some switch that does the same thing but is called by a different name ?

That is important and again, that is precisely why I kept mentioning and continue to mention a special design (smpte) track. Are you absolutely sure that track 8 on the 58 isn't similar in some fashion? It really does seem like it could be something simple now. In thinking about it for a bit (pardon the pun - actually 80 bit = digital word smpte address, but my head hurts now).

Like suppose . . and I am only speculating . . Just ponder for a bit the possibility that when a goto address is required, the synchronizer might be designed to send a signal to defeat and take command of the on board mute circuit, energize the mute circuit, close either FFW or REW circuits, read smpte address word off tape until a certain predetermined upper limit frequency (therefore speed) is reached and then . . . maybe at some point, say maybe around 10 or 20X play speed, energize the extend lifters circuit and simultaneously recognize tac pulses which it could fairly roughly convert to a computed address . . . . until such time as . . . . the approximate goto address is reached . . . . and then . . . . varispeed the wind speed down to a readable frequency (speed), retract the danged lifters, read TC off tape, rock and roll to locate the seek address, de-energize mute and park that baby . . .

But if for some silly reason, the tape sync track is NOT open to pass audio at all speeds because it is in mute mode too, well, then none of that vodoo would work.

As a test, how about if you hit the play button twice on the recorder to put it in spool mode (or whatever method is used). Can the synchronizer read TC at that speed ? Maybe also put your voltmeter on track 8 output, put it in FFW and verify that there's a signal. Also - Microlynx has a MUTE menu selection that allows the user to choose a X play speed to mute, 10 - 20 etc or NEVER. See if Tascam has something like that. If it does, choose never and test to see what happens. As a last resort, do you have a scubb/jog wheel on the synchronizer? If you do, spin it and see at what speed you lose TC.





Syncing is sorta like dealing with the IRS. Get one tinsy winsy thing wrong and you're in deep dodo.


Danny

 

[sweetbeats]

Danny,

Hmm . . .Cory, maybe I'm not following along to well and I hope I haven't sent you off on a wild goose chase but. . . I find it hard to believe that Tascam didn't provide some means of visually indicating that track 8 is set to synclock, IE: ALWAYS PASSING AUDIO . . . . even when all the other tracks are muted during fast winds. Basically, when mine is set to enable lif/def/mute that really means "EXTERNAL CONTROL OF", and it also means that ALL TRACKS are muted remotely. To sync, I then must enable the input monitor button on track 16 (which is a special track) to enable that track to pass audio at all times under all transport conditions independently of the other tracks, which it visually indicates by the SYNC track (track 16 here) input enable light turning a different color. Could it possibly be that there is some switch that does the same thing but is called by a different name ?

The MS16 has special mojo lacking on my 58. No special sync track. All tracks are identical. The manual is even non-specific about which track you use to record the TC track: "A time code generator is used to record SMPTE onto one track of the tape." The lifter and mute defeat is a manual function on the 58, though there is lifter control communication between the ES-50 and the 58, but I'm not sure yet how that presents itself.

As a test, how about if you hit the play button twice on the recorder to put it in spool mode (or whatever method is used). Can the synchronizer read TC at that speed ? Maybe also put your voltmeter on track 8 output, put it in FFW and verify that there's a signal. Also - Microlynx has a MUTE menu selection that allows the user to choose a X play speed to mute, 10 - 20 etc or NEVER. See if Tascam has something like that. If it does, choose never and test to see what happens. As a last resort, do you have a scubb/jog wheel on the synchronizer? If you do, spin it and see at what speed you lose TC.

The synchronizer is able to read TC at SPOOL speed. Keep in mind that in order to test this I have to manually retract the lifters to get the tape close enough to the head as well as to defeat the mute circuit.
According to my multimeter there is audio at the output jack when in fast-wind, again as long as I am manually retracting the lifters to get the tape close enough to the head as well as to defeat the mute circuit.
Your Microlynx is much fancier than my ES-50...no such "MUTE menu", and in fact communication between any synchronizer and the 58 regarding mute control is not possible. It is all handled secondary to the lifter position and a micro-switch. No jog-wheel either.

I'm pretty sure the synchronizer is sending lifter control signals to the 58 because the lifter retractor has a different effect on the lifters depending on what state the pitch control is in (internal or external).

If the 58 is switched to EXT (external pitch control) and the 58 is locked to the DAW:

1. if I advance the timeline position in the DAW by any significant amount, the synchronizer sends the 58 into fast-wind to catch up
2. I manually slide the lifter retractor to its stop while the 58 is fast-winding, and nothing happens...the lifters remain fully-extended
3. Once the 58 does that cyclical slowing to SPOOL speed that you can see in the video, then the lifter retractor works as it should.

In other words, the synchronizer is taking over the lifter control in fast-wind which is not the case when I have the 58 in INT (internal pitch control) because I can manually retract the lifters in fast-wind when the deck is in INT mode.

 

[sweetbeats]

Taking a break from sync stuff

Okay, so I haven't made any progress on the syncronization stuff. Taking a break from that and going back through a full setup and calibration now that I have the Tentelometer, some non-shedding tape and (soon) a better true RMS DMM (Fluke 85).

So I rechecked the brake adjustments (and there were some minor adjust ments to make, I think because of the new solenoid cushion I put in...I think its kind of breaking in...), rechecked the pinch-roller tension (and also made some minor adjustments there...maybe same deal as I replaced that solenoid cushion as well), and then proceeded to the next step which is to adjust the tension arms and the tape tension...phew...what a deal.

First ya gotta set the tension arm position in EDIT mode, and once you have that set then you can press PLAY and check the tension between each tension-arm and its proximal reel using the Tentelometer. Supposed to be 75-85 grams. Well, the takeup side was too high, and the supply side was too low. I adjusted the tension-arm spring hanger positions accordingly, and was able to get both sides around 80 grams but the takeup side hanger was all the way to the extreme end...it was as loose as it could go, and the supply side all the way as tight as it could go. I was happy to have the tension in spec but uncomfortable with the spring hanger positions.

Next is to check the tension arm position in fast-wind, both directions...couple other trimmers for adjusting that and the manual says that the supply reel tension-arm will drop into a certain position once the reels are fully up to speed...well, I could never get that tension-arm to really be in the right spot, and when I'd check the tension, things were horribly low in REW. I looked at the next bit in the manual and it talks about adjusting the tension sensors...pull off the back panel, disconnect the tension-arm springs, take the reels off, take the end-sensor off, put yer probes on the specified test-points on the board in the back and see if you've got 8 volts DC (+/-0.3V) after the deck is in EDIT mode. Supply side was 7.2V, so I monkeyed with that to get it closer to 8V. Takeup side was 5.3V. AHA! I've got you now. So I got everything nice and really close to 8V, reinstalled everything and adjusted the end-sensor while I was at it...

Now the tension-arm spring hangers aren't all the way to one of their stops. They aren't centered either, but rather somewhere in between...I can deal with that. Tension-arm adjustments in EDIT and PLAY mode are happy, but the whole fast-wind adjustments are a bit baffling. I PM'ed ethervalve since he has a 58.

Here is what I'm experiencing:

When I am fast-winding the tension-arm closest to the loading reel is bottomed on its full-extension cushion (i.e. if the deck is in FFWD, the right tension-arm is up against the cushioned full-extension stop, or in REW the takeup tension-arm is against its full-extension stop).

It was a confusing experience tonight because if I set the tension arm positions using trimmers R2 and R3 as stated in the manual when in FFWD or REW the tension was all off (too low) and when I adjusted using the Tentelometer, once the tension was right, the tension arm on the load side was all the way against its stop. I guess on one hand this makes sense because you do want healthy tension on the load side to get a nice tape pack, and when I'd set the tension arm position by sight according to the diagram in the manual, whenever I'd go from fast-wind to stop (particularly from REW to STOP), the load-side tension-arm (supply side in REW) would bounce against the full-extension stop. Looked hard on the tape...but if I adjusted the fast-wind tension using the Tentelometer, it would result in the tension-arm setting against its full-extension stop while winding, and the tension-arm would stay there as I engaged STOP and then drop to a neutral position once the reels were done decelerating. Mind you, this is when setting the tension via the Tentelometer (which I did calibrate prior to using it...)

Dunno about this , because the manual *also* states that the left tension arm should drop into a nearly straight up and down position once the tape has reached speed, but that doesn't happen that way when I adjust the tension to the specification in the manual for tape tension using the Tentelometer.

Need sleep...me sleepy...very...vry..................shl eep...............

 

[sweetbeats]

Update on the 'parts or repair" 48

Unbelieveable...

So I took my shedding roll of SM911 and got the 48 out of its cacoon last night. I did a rough cleaning of the deck itself and did a good cleaning on the tape path. The retaining cap on the pinch roller was missing the bushing that goes under it so I borrowed it from my other 48. The former owner was running the deck with the pinch roller basically free to shift back and forth. You can see where tape was cutting into the dress panel. They also had stripped out 3 of the 4 reel hub retaining screws (the ones that hold the hubs to the reel motor shaft) so two screws are just sitting loose on the hubs, one is tight and the other has been replaced by a sheet metal screw . Sad. I'll probably remove the hubs and drill and tap oversize and get some proper metric cap screws.

Anyway...I adjusted the reel table heights a little and ran the transport through its paces. It...works...like...a...charm. Everything...autolocator functions too. The repro indicator LED flickers but that is probably an easy fix to track down. I can see that audio is passing at least as far as the VU's on all channels in sync and repro. The brakes work too. Baffling, as the deck was supposedly originally sent to the shop for brake problems but, in spite of the wrinkled brake band on the supply side they work just fine. It was mal-installed when I got it, so maybe it was really just a simple problem.

One problem that I am seeing though is on the impedance roller...can't quite understand what is happening there yet. In PLAY, I can see that the tape is properly riding the roller on the inside of the deck (close to the face of the deck), but gapped off of the roller slightly on the outside, like the tape is being pulled toward the deck or something. Then when I fast REW is where the real problem is...when I REW the tape gets pulled to the outside of the roller and makes a painful stretching squeak. The tape does get stretched too and creased from the guides because it is pulled hard enough into the outside edge of the guides...yuck. Not sure if it is riding out on the lifters, or if the roller is messed up or what...or if it is a tension issue.

Anyway, tonight I'm going to confirm audio is outputting from the jacks and make sure audio can make it to tape.

This makes things even more confusing as I would like to have spares for my 48 (and even for my 58 for things like the heads), but it seems so wrong to cannibalize a deck which is, like, nearly fully functional, though a bit worse for the wear and missing some parts. Man, I hope I never let me decks get that dirty. Just seems wrong. Shockingly the reel adapters are in perfect working order too. They usually seem to get beat up first.

Not bad for $128!

 

[sweetbeats]

RMGI batch numbers...

Daniel (cjacek) et al,

In response to:

Do you happen to know how [RMGI's] batch system works, like in what do these numbers really mean or indicate?

I had another nice conversation with Phil Paske at RMGI. He appreciated the interest in the batch numbers, but he said that one would have to have the reference charts at the factory to interpret the numbers as the numbers relate to the "Jumbo Roll", and are very specific. You can have rolls run at the same time and one may have been problematic while the other was not. RMGI's tracking system is much more detailed than AGFA/BASF/EMTEC's was because their batch numbers were not specific to the Jumbo Roll. RMGI is able to track down to a very specific run/roll if/when problems arise. He did say that the letter code that precedes the 6-digit code (A, B, C, or D) indicates which coater the batch came from. Coater B is what most of the SM911 comes from.

He reemphasized how much he wants to interface directly with customers having trouble. Fourms and email are great, but he stated (and I think he is right) that you can have email or forum dialogues stretching over days that can be accomplished in minutes over the phone. He is very approachable.

I want to reemphasize that, though I know the response some have received from RMGI in the past (blindly pointing the finger at the user/machine for instance) have been heard by Phil. He and I talked pretty bluntly about that. The tape issues that have surfaced have continued to be isolated to about 5% of early runs.

I'm sorry if I sound like a commercial for RMGI...I just know I've had a very favorable experience with my tape trouble (and my tape happened to be from one of those 5% of the early runs...I got the tape over a year ago and it may have sat in inventory for who knows how long) and I feel it is fair to have my experience in the mix with the rest of them.

Phil stated (as is pretty common knowledge) that, if you have trouble, first call the dealer, and if that doesn't work, just call him and he told me to put his number up:

(661) 287-9877

He also warned to make sure you are buying from an authorized dealer. He said it hasn't been problematic lately, but there was an early problem of an overseas grey market exporting tape that was not RMGI factory tape under the RMGI name..."factory-direct". RMGI does not sell direct to the end-user. When you buy from an authorized dealer you are assured you are buying the real deal and will get factory authorized follow up if you have problems. In my words, you get what you pay for.

 

[A Reel Person]

I...

I was appalled lately to discover the price of tape has doubled since the 80's. $80 for a reel of 1/2" seems high to me.

Don't ask me why I was surprised, but maybe I had my head under a rock for a few decades.

What I notice is this Phil's phone number is a local number to me. That seems strange...? Is RMGI repping out of Palmdale or Santa Clarita, (CA)???

 

[sweetbeats]

I was appalled lately to discover the price of tape has doubled since the 80's

Phil talked about that as well. A lot of it has to do with the strength of the dollar, which is half of what it was compared to euro markets "back in the day". Plus market inflation, drop in production...the price of tape has actually not increased as much as the market and market conditions. When looked at in that light tape is actually cheaper today than it was back then...none of that makes $80 a reel feel any better huh?

What I notice is this Phil's phone number is a local number to me. That seems strange...? Is RMGI repping out of Palmdale or Santa Clarita, (CA)???

Must be if it is the same area code...I know he's in CA.

 

[A Reel Person]

Thanx...

~beatz!

I'll go back under my rock now!

 

[sweetbeats]

"Parts or repair" 48 video...

I put up a video on my ftp site of the 48 impedance roller problem. It is about 5Mb. You can download it here.

I confirmed tonight that audio does pass through the output jacks on the "parts or repair" 48, and it records to all tracks no problem. Signal actually seems to be more stable than my 58 in spite of the transport problems (i.e. the impedance roller...I was printing test tones to tape that is wrinkled from stretching at the outer edge and it *still* tracked nice).

So now what do I do?? I have a completely functional deck...and I'm going to get the power supply-less M520 day after tomorrow...

 

[cjacek]

Cory, thanks for updating on the 48 and also sharing your detailed conversations with Phil [including following up on the batch numbers]. It's much appreciated.

With regard to the problems you're getting with your 48..... I checked out the video [I'm more of a visual person so it helped]. Is the impedance roller spinning freely? If it is then I don't think it's the roller but rather the right side of the machine. Can you make the same type of video but this time shifting attention to the right side and center? It would give a better indication of what the transport is doing while in different modes. If you checked that the tension is correct, I'd suspect the right side is pulling the tape 'out'. I'd need to see it though. You said that both left and right reel tables are corrected for height? Actually, check closely that the right tension roller is aligned correctly with the rest of the tape path. If I had to guess, it's the right side [in REW / FF], probably the right tension arm [maybe the counter roller has a role too, bad rubber], which isn't aligned well and also the tape tension, which is off (too much, on one or both sides).

If it were me, I'd probably restore that 48 to its former glory, which shouldn't be too hard, from your description. You could then have a better setup that the Beatles did for most of their albums! One recorder's 8 tracks fill up, you bounce to the 2nd etc...

Hey, update us on the delivery of your M-520!

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[Beck]

I was appalled lately to discover the price of tape has doubled since the 80's. $80 for a reel of 1/2" seems high to me.

Don't ask me why I was surprised, but maybe I had my head under a rock for a few decades.

Even worse... it's doubled since 2004. Right before the Quantegy tape crisis 1/2" 456 on metal reel went for as low as $36.00 each.

In December of '04 I bought several reels of 1/4" X 1200' GP9 from US Recording for $7.50 each and even got a free Quantegy T-shirt.

Those were the days.

 

[A Reel Person]

Appalled as I was at the price &...

cheap guy tho' that I am, I'm notheless glad to see recording tape still being made, and I hope it continues well into the future. Even I'm not future proof with my gazillions of reels and cassettes in the closet,... eh,... tape vault. Heh.

Not kidding, I just bought my first Snackmaster to hopefully restore my oldest 1/2" multitrack masters. I've not had the 1/2" 8-track up & running for several years, but I've been meaning to get back into it,... and unfortunately lots of my tapes have proven sticky,... not to mention the minor remedial maintenance my 38's need & I never seem to be able to get around to it. That's probably another post altogether.

I may buy new tape some day, but I don't know for sure. My present stocks may outlive me, since my production output has dropped way down compared to how it used to be.

(What a drag it is getting old!)

Thanx

 

[cjacek]

Hey Cory, did you catch my last post? Any word on the right side guide, tension issues?

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[sweetbeats]

I saw it, yes.

Been on the road since 5:30 this AM...not home yet.

Hopefully have a check tonight.

Tired.

 

[sweetbeats]

More Tascam 48 movies...

Hey Cory, did you catch my last post? Any word on the right side guide, tension issues?

Daniel, I loaded tape up last night and ran the "parts or repair" 48 through some tests, and, as you suggested via PM shot some more video of the entire tape path. Its getting wierder.

There are 4 movies here. Have a look when you can.

 

[sweetbeats]

58 update..

Well, I'm kind of blue...

Haven't made any progress on the 58, though I guess that's the price I pay for picking up a questionable 48-OB as well as the non-functioning (power supply-less) M520 console.

Anyway, still haven't been able to figure out my runanway slave issue...total standstill with that, and now I'm having the issue with the tension arms (i.e. if I set the tape tension using the Tentelometer, the tension arms don't behave according to the manual when in FFWD or REW. If I set things so that the arms behave according to the manual, then the tension is too low. I'm pretty confident that I'm calibrating the meter correctly...

Pete, AKA ethervalve has been trying to help, but nothing conclusive has been extracted from those interactions yet.

So, since I had the camera out taking movies of the M520 and "parts or repair" 48 last night, I thought I'd also shoot a movie of the tension arm operating behavior. It is here. Please watch it and let me know what you see.

 

[Beck]

Cory,

Be sure to replace the length of tape that came on the 1 oz weight with a length of 1/2" tape that you're setting the machine up with... in your case SM 911.

Just peel the old tape off and affix one end of about 2 ft of 911 to the weight with a short piece of clear adhesive tape or splicing tape. Otherwise your calibration will be off.

 

[sweetbeats]

Tim, thanks for the confirmation. I did indeed do exactly as you described prior to calibrating the Tentelometer.

Good reminder for others as well.

 

[cjacek]

Hopefully have a check tonight.

Tired.

Daniel, I loaded tape up last night and ran the "parts or repair" 48 through some tests, and, as you suggested via PM shot some more video of the entire tape path.

Haven't made any progress on the 58 ........... now I'm having the issue with the tension arms (i.e. if I set the tape tension using the Tentelometer, the tension arms don't behave according to the manual when in FFWD or REW.

Cory,

Thanks for doing the videos. You gave me a good visual as to what's going on.

Can you please do a visual check [or perhaps with the aid of a reasonably flat / straight object, like a ruler] and tell me if both of the tension arms are exactly the height of the rollers? In other words, if you were to set the deck on its back [where the connectors are] and draw a perfectly straight horizontal line, would the tops of the tensions arms and rollers match up? Also check if the tension arms themselves are not bent one way or another.

In the 48-OB manual, go to section 7 - 18 and make sure you check "B" [tape path]. Let me know what happens.

I'm not sure about 58-OB, especially that you set the tension correct but the tension arms still respond not as per the manual?

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