String tension experiment

[Victory Pete]

I started my experiment, I took a brand new GHS Boomer .052 and the same string from my SG that I put on in March. There is only 2 months of occasional use on it, I hadnt played it from May until present. I was rebuilding my studio. So I am not sure if this string would be called old. I was going to try this with a 13 month old acoustic string but I forgot I had just changed those. So this is the oldest set of strings I have. I took both strings and hung them from a beam. I tested the older string first, at exactly 26 inches I clamped a bucket with 2 bricks in it, I weighed the bucket, about 10 LBs. I then added water until I got a perfect "A" pitch. I used an acoustic pickup connected to my Peterson. I then clamped the same bucket to the new string and checked the pitch, exactly the same. It was an interesting experiment, I have egg on my face. Although I am determined to try this again with a very old string. I really feel though that old strings seem tighter and harder to play. What I love about changing strings is not only the great clear sound but the "apparent" flexibility.
VP

http://www.blguitar.com/lesson/beginner/guitar_strings2.html

 

[Double]

Seriously Pete you need to find a woman, join or start a band, something anything other than what you are spending your free time on now, it is getting you nowhere.

 

[Victory Pete]

Seriously Pete you need to find a woman, join or start a band, something anything other than what you are spending your free time on now, it is getting you nowhere.

I have both. Being self employed has its pro's and con's. Free time is always accessible.
VP

 

[cantthinkofname]

ignore them, not that you aren't anyway, people thought Les Paul was nuts too spending his time doing 'crazy' seemingly oddball pointless testing & things like using railroad scraps to invent the electric guitar, etc.

 

[muttley600]

VP carry on. Practical experiments are very valuable when it comes to investigating the established science behind any phenomena. It is vitally important that you do both though. Look out some information on string tension, mass and stiffness and pitch relationships. It's all well documented and fairly easy to grasp.

 

[Zaphod B]

VP, the "apparent" flexibility that you mention in a new string may result from its surface being freer of accumulated crap - smoother - and as a result moves more freely across the frets and fretboard, and your hand moves more freely across the strings.

There is no question, in my mind, that fresh strings are much more enjoyable not just for the brightness (which I understand some people do not like) but for the tactile difference.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

VP, the "apparent" flexibility that you mention in a new string may result from its surface being freer of accumulated crap - smoother - and as a result moves more freely across the frets and fretboard, and your hand moves more freely across the strings.

+1

Also, in the interest of scientific objectivity, I'd do one of two things -

1.) find some way to repeat this experiment with the same string in two different points of time, on days when the outside barometric pressure and water temperature is identical. This would allow you to control for differences in the particular wind or core of the particular string, but obviously you begin to get rather a lot of variables to control here, so...

2.) just repeat the experiment a LOT of times with the same gauge, and try to determine just how "repeatable" the results are. If you can't ensure that your sample is perfectly consistent, then just make your sample size large enough that minute inconsistencies from wind to wind will average themselves out.

To quote a favorite web comic of mine, "Science: It works, bitches!"

 

[Lt. Bob]

Now ya' see? You actually post about a real experiment you're doing and the replies you get are interested and not hateful.
Yes, we're all saying that this confirms what we said but at the same time, I'll respect anyone that'll go the the time and effort to try something like this and then report honestly on it.

This should be a starting point for peace between all of us.

 

[dodgeaspen]

Cool experiment Pete. Thoughtfully planned out. Since I don't and can't play anything other then drums this stuff is all foreign to me.

 

[Lt. Bob]

VP, the "apparent" flexibility that you mention in a new string may result from its surface being freer of accumulated crap - smoother - and as a result moves more freely across the frets and fretboard, and your hand moves more freely across the strings.

There is no question, in my mind, that fresh strings are much more enjoyable not just for the brightness (which I understand some people do not like) but for the tactile difference.

I think it's more the gunk that accumulates (as you said) than any kinda change in the metal.
And I don't find them to be stiffer so much, and I'm primarily a lead player with LOTS of bends. What old strings seem to do to me is have a 'waxy' (for lack of a good word) response especially AFTER I've plucked the note. They just have a deadened die away which makes sense since the goop on them acts as a dampener.

And now that we're talking about this. Is the accumulated crap the reason older strings get more and more off at an octave? That's when I toss strings ... when the intonation gets off. And the older they get .... the more off they get.
So there's some change going on there. What if you put a set on a guitar and don't play it at all for 20 years. Would it be in correct intonation? You'd still have some corrosion layers on the strings which would act similar to gunk from playing.
Hey VP ..... take a pic of your experiment ..... I'd like to see how you hooked the p/u

 

[lpdeluxe]

I've always thought it was the stretching of the string that caused the loss of intonation. My stepson (a guitarist) has hands that sweat corrosively. His strings deteriorate noticeably over the course of a recording session (try overdubbing a mistake two hours after the first take under those circumstances!) and get to a point where they can't be made to stay in tune, so you may be right. Fortunately, I don't suffer from that, but my observation over the years has been that strings that are frequently retuned (as I once did, before I could afford to have several guitars in different tunings) wear out much faster than ones that are not.

Now that arthritis is limiting the amount of finger-style playing I can tolerate, I ordinarily play with a bottleneck slide. I find that the strings, which are stretched only when initially tuned, tend to retain their intonation until the local humidity starts to rust them.

Not scientific, and only one player's observations; I wonder what experience others have had?

 

[cantthinkofname]

Cool experiment Pete. Thoughtfully planned out. Since I don't and can't play anything other then drums this stuff is all foreign to me.

maybe the same principles can apply? it would be interesting to hear the same principles applied to drum, i think dinty has written some things about this

 

[cantthinkofname]

My stepson (a guitarist) has hands that sweat corrosively. His strings deteriorate noticeably over the course of a recording session

not trying to take this backwards at all, but oh god should i dare say it, talcom powder has been said to help this problem. please don't get mad, could be wrong, but just sayin

 

[Zaphod B]

And now that we're talking about this. Is the accumulated crap the reason older strings get more and more off at an octave? That's when I toss strings ... when the intonation gets off. And the older they get .... the more off they get.
So there's some change going on there.

I've always thought it was the stretching of the string that caused the loss of intonation.

Another thing to consider is that if you have a lot of playing time on a set of strings, the strings will actually develop - I don't know what to call 'em, but visible marks where they have encountered the frets. I would imagine that either the string shape is a little different in those places, or maybe there's been a bit of material loss, and surely can't help things.

 

[32-20-Blues]

Kudos to you for going to the effort.

 

[Victory Pete]

I will take pictures soon, I am charging my camera. So If I let this new string hang here indefinately, I would assume it would stretch, getting smaller in diameter. A smaller diameter string with the same tension should be sharper. Well the string would also get longer, so a longer string with the same tension should be flat. Ureka! They cancel!? The pitch should stay the same. It has been awkward working here today with this hanging here, customers dont know what to think. I guess that is good because the less they know the better it is for business.

 

[nate_dennis]

I think if you want to get some really conclusive numbers you need a larger data pool and consistancy.

I don't know if guitar strings have lot numbers or anything but if they did, that would be idea. Get 10 sets from the same lot (or just same brand/gauge) and run the test five times with brand new strings, and five times with used strings. Sure environmental aspects have some to do with it, but I'd put more emphasis on the strings themselves.

cool experiment though.

 

[Dogbreath]

huh...
beddy beddy interesting.



Props to ya for takin the time man.

 

[Victory Pete]

I want to thank everybody for their input. In my ongoing research (obsession) I came across this link. It says what I have suspected happens to old strings.
VP

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=58653

 

[Victory Pete]

Here are some pictures of the experiment.
VP