Soloing: when to use major or minor pentatonic

[gusfmm]

Yes, my bad, I meant to say a MINOR third from your (minor pentatonic) root note. That is, if you are playing E minor pentatonic on the 12th fret, and wanted to switch to E major pentatonic, you would just toggle down to the 9th fret and play the equivalent to the C# minor pentatonic shape. For your info, that's called MAJOR PENTATONIC. And the formular is:
1-2-3-5-6

Do an Internet search and I'm sure you would find trillions of sites showing you that.

By the way, speaking of videos, pick up Paul Gilbert's "Intense Rock II" and you'll see him explaining you how to add a bit more interest into your 'pentatonic' solos by using the major pentatonic from time to time and when appropriate, alternated with the minor 'pentatonic'. Great video. Part I is even better though.

 

[gusfmm]

Use either.

I sometimes use both.

If you want you can think of F#minor pent as Amajor pent. Try swapping bewteen F#minor pent and Aminor pent over an A-D-A-E-D-A type progression to get a feel for the different sounds.

In reality you can use any note on the guitar as long as the notes either side are the right ones

Sorry Codmate, you had already mentioned it. Kuddos then!

 

[famous beagle]

Sorry Codmate, you had already mentioned it. Kuddos then!

Ok, it's obvious that you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not going to waste time responding to all your worthless insults.

I have a bachelor's degree in music theory from the University of North Texas; I think I know a bit about jazz. And I've seen that Frank Gambale video (which was a worthless piece of crap).

My whole point with all of this is that "modes" are blown WAY out of proportion by most guitar players. They see them as this big huge mystery, when they're really very simple. You can either think of them as a major scale starting on each of the seven notes, or you can think of each mode as a scale of its own with its own intervallic structure.

My whole point is that the latter method is useful, while the former method is just a waste of time.

And I just have to say ... why does a dominant always signify the key a 5th below it you dumb fuck!? How many times does a dominant secondary dominant NOT resolve to its secondary tonic? In classical music, obviously it resolves properly fairly often. But in pop music and much jazz, probably as often as not. Think of a major II chord (V of V). In pop music today, this chord leads to IV probably even more often than leading to V! Just because a chord is a "dominant," that doesn't mean shit in practical terms. I could write a song (and many people have) that has nothing but dominant chords that don't "resolve" to where they are supposed to, and in that case the "dominant" chords certainly don't imply the chord a 5th below.

Tell you what, the next time you play a blues in C, go ahead and land on the "tonic" note (F) (as you say it is) over the final C7 chord and see how it sounds.

Geez ... you people ... you learn a little theory and you're a know it all all of the sudden.

Just so you know, I'm well educated on this subject. I've taken Schenkerian Analysis, Harmonic Analysis, and all the other "Analysises" there are. I'm not an idiot, and I know that you're not as well. Obviously, we have differeing opinions about the relevancy of modes. I suggest we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[famous beagle]

Just a few more things I wanted to address.

I didn't say the technically correct scale to play over a C blues is C Mixolydian. I said it was "technically correct" over C7. By your definition, C7 ALWAYS means F major, so I don't see how you could argue with that.

Secondly, you don't need a V chord to identify a key. See below:

F Gm Am Bb

What other key could these chords be in besides F major? Where's the V chord?

And if you want me to mention some worthless facts about "impressive" sounding composers like Igor Stravinsky or Antone Webern or Bela Bartok or Harry Partch or Milton Babbitt or Alban Berg or whomever, I'd be more than happy to. But it would be a waste of time and an obvious attempt (as yours was) at sounding more intelligent.


I think I'm starting to understand that you're what we used to call at UNT a "Jazz Nazi." Thinking that Jazz is America's only "true" art form and all that bullshit. Nothing could be further from the truth. Take any number of Bach preludes, speed them up and swing the 8th notes, and you've got a good percentage of bebop. And if you've studied Bach preludes in any depth you'll know this to be true. There's nothing more original about jazz than there is about country music. And it's just as formulaic as country as well: head in, solos, trade fours, head out. Boring, boring, boring. And for an art that relys so heavily on the term "improvisation," it really comes up short. Take a look at many Parker, Gillespie, Miles solos, and you're going to see the same licks over and over and over again. If they were truly improvising over those fast changes during the bebop period, that would have really been something. But it was nothing more than musical masturbation. Sure, they could play; no one will deny that. But improvising? Hardly.


This thread is supposed to be about pentatonics. Someone said that modes were better than pentatonics. I said modes were overrated and misunderstood. That's my only point. There's no MYSTERY to modes. They are SO SIMPLE!

This whole discussion is pointless and a waste of time.

 

[Mark7]

You can either think of them as a major scale starting on each of the seven notes, or you can think of each mode as a scale of its own with its own intervallic structure.

Hate to have to point this out, but...

Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian are Major.

Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian are minor.

Locrian is something like half diminished.

To clarify: The first three all have an interval of 4 semi-tones between the root and the third and the remaining four have an interval of 3 semi-tones between the root and the third, with Locrian also containing a diminished 5th (B - D = minor 3rd, D - F = minor 3rd. IOW: 6 semi-tones from root to fifth, or a diminished 5th)


Okay. Carry on.

 

[famous beagle]

Mark 7: That's right. No one will argue with that.



Gusfmm: And you never did tell us (after you screwed up your post) what a "major blues scale" is. You described a major PENTATONIC. In case you don't know, there's a difference between a blues scale and a pentatonic scale. If you had read even a little bit of this thread in the beginning, you would have seen that all of us are agreed on what a major pentatonic and minor pentatonic are. I said that the traditional "blues" scale is a MINOR pent with an added b5 (or #4). But, as I said, there's not an agreed upon MAJOR BLUES scale. (I didn't say major pent! Everyone knows a fucking major PENTATONIC scale.) So what is this major BLUES scale you speak of?

 

[Mark7]

Thanks. Yeah, Locrian IS half diminished. The interval between 5th and 7th is a major 3rd.

Knowing the modes is useful for building extended chords on each degree of a given key of the Major scale.

If you're into that sort of thing.

BTW: Isn't the blues scale something like (in C) C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb?

Try it!

 

[famous beagle]

Thanks. Yeah, Locrian IS half diminished. The interval between 5th and 7th is a major 3rd.

Knowing the modes is useful for building extended chords on each degree of a given key of the Major scale.

If you're into that sort of thing.

BTW: Isn't the blues scale something like (in C) C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb?

Try it!

Yes ... I said that earlier. The standard "blues scale" is just a minor pent. with an added b5, like you said in C. However, that scale is based off the MINOR pent. shape. Someone had asked earlier if there was such thing as a "MAJOR blues scale." That's when genius (gusfmm) popped in and enlightened us all with the major PENTATONIC scale AND a nifty little "shift down a minor 3rd from the minor pentatonic" trick to boot! Oh joy! Of course, that's not a blues scale; it's just a major pentatonic. I was saying that I don't think there is an agreed upon "major blues scale." I've seen some scales called that in books before, but there's not one definitive.

 

[famous beagle]

You speak so freely about it that you give the impression you knew about it. But let me ask you something to see whther you've understood anything: Can you tell me what key they'd be playing on in your example about Satriani's song in D Lydian? Is it D major or A major? Or something else?

Ok this has got to be the stupidest question I've ever heard. I said the song is in D Lydian. Therefore, they would play in ..... wait for it .... D Lydian. In case you don't know, that's D-E-F#-G#-A-B-C#. These are the same notes as an A major scale, but the stress is on the note D, because it's D Lydian. I have no idea why you weren't clear on this.

See??? This is what I was telling you before. You think you know about modes 'cause you learned to play the major scale all over the freatboard and the freaking stupid method you learned this from named each position after each mode. WHICH IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. One thing is positions over the fretboard and another, totally different, is scales. What you are doing, in reality, is playing C Ionian all over the fretboard. Period. If you were playing D Dorian, then the emphasys of your playing OUGHT TO BE the note D, as D Dorian is a mode based on D. It sounds a bit tricky, but you've got to get used to it.
Just to give you another example, I said C# minor pentatonic is the same as E major pentatonic. Right. But if you play the scale from C# to C#, and make really good emphasys on playing the C#s and B (the fifth), it is going to sound more to C# minor than to E (either minor or major). So in order for it to sound like E major pentatonic, although you're using the same shape to play it on the guitar, you've got to emphasize the E's, and it'll still sound as if you're playing in the right key. Because the reality is that C# minor is the major relative of E major, and we said we were playing E major pentatonic, right? That's its reason to be.

Geez ... This is so 2nd grade level. If you honestly think I don't understand (or haven't understood for over 20 years!) what you're talking about .... I just don't even know what to say. The concept of relative minor is one of the most basic concepts in theory!

In the words of Will Ferrell, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

 

[Mark7]

The Beagle has it!

D Ionian (AKA: D Major) = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

D Lydian = D, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D


D is the 4th degree of A Major; which is the degree of the scale that the Lydian mode is built on. The Augmented 4th is what distinguishes it from the normal Major (Ionian) scale.

A Sus4 built using the Lydian mode sounds pretty weird

 

[gusfmm]

Ok, it's obvious that you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not going to waste time responding to all your worthless insults.

I have a bachelor's degree in music theory from the University of North Texas; I think I know a bit about jazz. And I've seen that Frank Gambale video (which was a worthless piece of crap).

Well buddy, obviously you wasted your time and money at school then. The only other thing I'm going to say is that your stupid arrogance is the best portrait of your ignorance. Period.

You could have taken my comments just to educate yourself a bit more but the only better thing you can think of instead is respond back with more crap to the pile you had already put up. So be it, keep dwelling in your own mediocre world then.

 

[mshilarious]

And if you've studied Bach preludes in any depth you'll know this to be true. There's nothing more original about jazz than there is about country music. And it's just as formulaic as country as well: head in, solos, trade fours, head out. Boring, boring, boring. And for an art that relys so heavily on the term "improvisation," it really comes up short. Take a look at many Parker, Gillespie, Miles solos, and you're going to see the same licks over and over and over again. If they were truly improvising over those fast changes during the bebop period, that would have really been something. But it was nothing more than musical masturbation. Sure, they could play; no one will deny that. But improvising? Hardly.

I like you

 

[famous beagle]

Well buddy, obviously you wasted your time and money at school then. The only other thing I'm going to say is that your stupid arrogance is the best portrait of your ignorance. Period.

You could have taken my comments just to educate yourself a bit more but the only better thing you can think of instead is respond back with more crap to the pile you had already put up. So be it, keep dwelling in your own mediocre world then.

Look man, it's obvious that you've studied music theory. And I think it should be obvious that I have as well. But what you're talking about is SO BASIC. It's like you're accusing me of not knowing that 2+2=4 and then taking 8 pages to explain it. All of this stuff (modes, pentatonics, dominant chords) is among the most basic of music theory, and if you really don't think I understand that a Dorian mode is a minor scale with a raised 6th tone, or a Mixolydian mode is a major scale with a b7, or that Lydian dominant is the fourth mode of melodic minor, then you're welcome to think that. There is absolutely no mystery to this stuff. It's VERY basic.

I don't know how I ever became a published author with over 20 instructional books to my credit without your help. I guess I've fooled Hal Leonard.

 

[mshilarious]

Lydian dominant is the fourth mode of melodic minor, then you're welcome to think that. There is absolutely no mystery to this stuff. It's VERY basic.

OK, modes of melodic minor is at least a little advanced. I mean when descending in the fourth mode, all of a sudden it goes from a major mode to a minor mode! That makes my head hurt

 

[famous beagle]

OK, modes of melodic minor is at least a little advanced. I mean when descending in the fourth mode, all of a sudden it goes from a major mode to a minor mode! That makes my head hurt

Well, it's not "scales 101," but it's certainly not rocket science.

 

[cordura21]

One question: when you're doing the standard I7-IV7-V7 blues/rock thing,

where is the tonal center?
is there a single scale you can use?
is it Imixolidian?
or does the tone change on each chord (or in any of the chords)?

 

[gusfmm]

Just a few more things I wanted to address.

I didn't say the technically correct scale to play over a C blues is C Mixolydian. I said it was "technically correct" over C7. By your definition, C7 ALWAYS means F major, so I don't see how you could argue with that.

This is so BS that I don't think you even thought about it when you wrote this. Or perhaps you did... probably...
What if I play C Ionian over a C7 chord? What if I played a whole tone scale over a C7 chord? What if I played a disminished scale over a C7 chord? What if I played a (let's use guitar player's terminology) minor pentatonic scale over a C7 chord? How about the relative harmonic minor? Or perhaps A Aeolian???
Is any of those LESS TECHNICALLY CORRECT than your Mixolydian??? For God's sake.

Ok, calming down and for anybody else interested, and I think this also gives you a very good hint of what you can and can't do with your scales Andres:
What defines what scale you can use over a certain chord progression is the harmonic structure behind it. Read on.

Secondly, you don't need a V chord to identify a key. See below:

F Gm Am Bb

What other key could these chords be in besides F major? Where's the V chord?

Oh yeah, of course, if you pick those you are interested in and on top of that, you use only triads. So let me reformulate your question and still use your same F major example:

What if you got:
F Am Dm C
Can you tell whether this is F major again?

Now, had you used tetrads, then it'd another whole ball game. And not only that, but we haven't even gotten into harmonizing a minor scale such as the harmonic minor, or melodic minor. There are certainly much more possibilities there.

A dominant chord ALWAYS defines a key center, and go back to your Harmony 101 school books. Even if the chord doesn't resolve to the tonic but to a relative V, or a substitute V7 or II-V7 progression, as is the ABC of Jazz music. Each V7 defines a especific key center. The way you play on those chord changes is by identifying the harmonic center of each "cluster" of chords (normally by recognizing the V7) and playing on the key of the I (tonic) chord corresponding to that. There are other ways too. And often, even the V7 is missing, so you have to "understand the context" of the chord changes.

That's the key and that's why you can flamboyantly play C Mixolydian over a Dm-Am cluster of the progression. And it is not the dumbest thing to do, don't try to look like a smart ass.

And if you want me to mention some worthless facts about "impressive" sounding composers like Igor Stravinsky or Antone Webern or Bela Bartok or Harry Partch or Milton Babbitt or Alban Berg or whomever, I'd be more than happy to. But it would be a waste of time and an obvious attempt (as yours was) at sounding more intelligent.

I'm not mentioning "impressive" facts about anybody just for the sake of sounding intelligent. I've studied and learned contemporary harmony using Schomberg's book, and that's why I was recommending it to everyone. Talk to anybody who's got formal quality music theory training and you'll hear this book highlighted over any other method, provided you've got at least basic harmony studies before, as it's not the easiest one to use, but it's certainly the cornerstone of modern harmony.

I think I'm starting to understand that you're what we used to call at UNT a "Jazz Nazi." Thinking that Jazz is America's only "true" art form and all that bullshit. Nothing could be further from the truth. Take any number of Bach preludes, speed them up and swing the 8th notes, and you've got a good percentage of bebop. And if you've studied Bach preludes in any depth you'll know this to be true. There's nothing more original about jazz than there is about country music. And it's just as formulaic as country as well: head in, solos, trade fours, head out. Boring, boring, boring. And for an art that relys so heavily on the term "improvisation," it really comes up short. Take a look at many Parker, Gillespie, Miles solos, and you're going to see the same licks over and over and over again. If they were truly improvising over those fast changes during the bebop period, that would have really been something. But it was nothing more than musical masturbation. Sure, they could play; no one will deny that. But improvising? Hardly.

Keep speaking your crap as you've been doing thus far, it's now obvious that's the way you are. Just fyi, I don't play Jazz at all. I do know a lot of jazz theory though.

This whole discussion is pointless and a waste of time.

Well, but you've spent a good deal of yours on it, and keep doing so, hence you seem to like it, don't you?

 

[famous beagle]

One question: when you're doing the standard I7-IV7-V7 blues/rock thing,

where is the tonal center?
is there a single scale you can use?
is it Imixolidian?
or does the tone change on each chord (or in any of the chords)?

The tonal center is the I chord. If you've got a blues in C, then C7 is your I chord, and therefore C is the tonal center.

According to gusfmm, you could play any scale over any chord at any given time and it would be "technically correct."

But you asked a serious question, so I'll answer.

You could play C minor pent (C Eb F G Bb) or C blues (C Eb F Gg G Bb) over the whole thing and be fine. A lot of players, like Stevie Ray (though he certainly wasn't limited to this), do this all the time.

If you played something like C major pentatonic over the whole thing, the E note would clash against the b7 of the IV chord (F7), which is Eb. So you normally won't hear people playing major pentatonic over the entire blues.

 

[gusfmm]

One question: when you're doing the standard I7-IV7-V7 blues/rock thing,

where is the tonal center?
is there a single scale you can use?
is it Imixolidian?
or does the tone change on each chord (or in any of the chords)?

Andres,

What the majority of the guitar players would do or, since you mentioned him, somebody like Angus Young would, is play the minor (not to get into more arguing) pentatonic scale with its tonic (first note or scale degree) the same as the I7 chord. So if it is C7 | F7 | G7, then play the C minor 'pentatonic'.

You can, however, use many other alternatives while playing on that progression. Among them, a very common one specially useful when the tempo is not that fast, is play the minor 'pentatonic' corresponding to each of the chords in that progression. So while on C7, play C minor pentatonic, while on F7, play F minor pentatonic, on G7, G minor pentatonic. That'll give you some variety to your sound. There are many other options too, but I think with all this arguing before, you probably got some idea.

Hope this helps.

 

[cordura21]

Thanks guys.
It doesn't seem logic to me since a dominant seventh chord has a major 3rd, while the minor scales 3rd is, well, minor.

And since C is E's relative minor, can you play E major pentatonic ( I guess you can)?

EDIT: SORRY, I MEAN D#