Soloing: when to use major or minor pentatonic
- Thread starter cordura21
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mshilarious
Banned
foo said:
Got me there.Very few people listen to modern classical music, but we still believe that rock music should move forward. Perhaps that's not fair, but I'm not sure which one is right.
apl said:
If I'm understanding you correctly, and your original message goes back quite a bit in this thread, I'm gonna have to respond to your last question with a definitive NO. The canonical-traditional-standard-most basic blues harmonic progression simply consists of:
I7 - IV7 - V7 - I7
No minor chord whatsoever. These are all dominant chords and they are considered major, as the third in the triad is a major third.
On the other hand, whether you can play a major or minor blues scale ('cause one thing is the blues scale and another very different is a pentatonic scale. The terms are popularly used interchangeably, but this is formally incorrect) is nowadays no longer a concern, as it's been sort of freely used by many players over time and has become "normal" to our ears now. A major blues scale played when you'd normally use a minor blues scale is gonna give you a different flavor and feel, some of you have already described it as countryish. You are going to have to be careful though, as someone else before said, depending on the chord progression you're playing over, you might have notes in the major scale that are "extrange" or outside of the specific major or minor scale that outlines the tonality of that chord progression or cluster of chords. I don't want to make it sound complicated, 'cause it's not that much, but I could just go on and on. Hope this is helpful though.
That is just the simplest use you can give to modes. You can actually play ANY, and let me say that again, basically ANY IMAGINABLE scale over a simple one-chord vamp as you are saying, and it's gonna sound fine. A little odd or "original" perhaps depending on which you play, but good in general. And the reason being that a single chord does not define any harmonic key/progression, e.g. Dm7 is part of C major, Bb major and F major and their relative minor keys. Not to mention other harmonic modes and variations...famous beagle said:
Any given mode, including the two most known and used "major" (Ionian) and "minor" (Aeolian), defines a certain harmonic structure. Just write the notes of that mode on the staff and construct the triads on top.
And as some of you still not so much into the "world of modes" might get confused about it, let me clarify something here. Each mode is built upon a "scalar" formula. The traditional "major" (Ionian) mode follows:
1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2
so C Ionian (or major) is: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
whereas the Mixolydian mode follows:
1-1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1
so C Mixolydian would be: C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C
So once you learn the basic scalar shapes on the guitar you can just play that shape beginning on a given note, and the mode you are playing is called "that root note" + mode name. So going back to these two cases, and as I aforementioned, the first one is said to define C major harmony, whereas for the second, the underlined harmony IS NOT C, but F major.
Now, trying to wrap it all up, if you had a chord progression in C major, say:
CMaj7 | Emin7 | Amin7 | Dmin7 | G7 | CMaj7
you could solo by using the C Ionian mode safely with no worries, all over the progression. But an interesting alternative is also to break your solo up into three sections:
- Over the first two chords, CMaj7 | Emin7, you could just play C Ionian.
- Then, over the next two chords, Amin7 | Dmin7, you could now play C Mixolydian... Weeehhhaaa!!!!
- And then, over the last two, G7 | CMaj7, you ought to come back to playing C Ionian (not really... but let's stay focused for now).
Try it at home, no safety concerns involved, just a word of advice: Make sure you do not over-emphasize the "odd" notes (in this case just one, Bb) when you play over this simple progression, as otherwise it'll sound a little too odd.
But you'll certainly be giving your solos a different twist and flavor, as I said. This is just another application of modal playing and harmony.famous beagle said:
Beagle: I'm afraid this is incorrect. I think your comment is coming from seeing the modes as scale positions over the fretboard, where as long as you play one after the other on the same key, there is no need to worry about the mode's name.
But this is not correct as I hope I made clear above. You are NOT playing C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc all over the place, but rather C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, etc. Is this clear? One of the "magic" with modes is be able to play "modally" over the same tonal center (key). Another is using a particular chord progression underlined by one given key and mode. Guitar players like Satriani, Vai, Alex Skolnick (ex-Testament) use a lot this approach and are eager modal players. Listen to some of their music and you'll probably notice those different-sounding themes that you probably cann't explain how they came up with, and are all based on modes.
Have fun.
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famous beagle
Well-known member
apl said:
Actually, the common "blues scale" is just a minor pentatonic with an added b5. Like this:
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
I don't think there is an agreed-upon "major blues scale," but I suppose the closest would either be:
1 2 b3 3 5 6 (this is simply the "relative major" version of the "minor" blues scale, which is just known as "the blues scale." In other words, A blues would be A C D Eb E G, and this C "major" blues would be C D Eb E G A. Same notes, different starting note.)
or maybe:
1 2 b3 3 5 b7 (though I can't recall ever seeing this scale called a "major blues," it's not that far off in practical terms because it's got both 3rds and a b7.)
sweetnubs
New member
Major Beagles take on Pentatonics is correct. They are very usefull for adding harmonics or emphasizing the "color" notes of a particular chord. (6th's, 9th's #11 th's, 13th's etc.) They are also very useful in groupings and for slide slipping techniques. (i.e. leaving and returning to the key center) I highly recomend guitar players listen to horn players and try to copy their patterns (for educational purposes only) because it will help take you out of the guitar player's pentatonic "box." John Coltrane is a fine example of a horn player who employs lots of pentatonic playing.
I call it differently, but I guess it all depends on where you learned this from. Not a biggie anyway.famous beagle said:
famous beagle said:
There is an agreed major blues scale that is practically used by a myriad of guitar players. It is not one of those, what you've done with those is just add passing or embellishing tones from one scale note to another (for instance, that second added).
If you want to play a major blues scale, simply use the same formula (and shape in the guitar):
1 b3 4 5 b7
but transposed a major third down from your root note. So if you are playing an E minor blues scale, your root is E (probably on the 12th fret). Use the same shape, but switch down to the 8th fret, to C. That's what is called A major blues (or pentatonic if you would).
famous beagle
Well-known member
what are you talking about?
This doesn't make any sense. The progression you wrote is clearly in the key of C major. Playing C Mixolydian in the middle of it is certainly a choice, but it wouldn't do anything except make for a weaker line by suggesting a different key when it clearly is not. If you're wanting different sounds in the middle of the phrase, there are certainly other options, but C Mixolydian is probably the dumbest.
Ok I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I didn't say C Dorian, C Mixolydian, and C Ionian. I just said "Dorian, Mixolydian, and Ionian." I thought it would be understood, to someone with at least a rudimentary understanding of modes, that I meant "D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian." All those are, of course, the same scale, just starting on different notes.
Ok ... what the hell? So a C7 chord is suggesting F major harmony? Always? Ok, granted, it's the dominant chord in F. But I guess you've never heard of a style called "blues," where all three chords (I, IV, and V) are dominant. In a blues in C, the underlying harmony of C7 is certainly NOT F. The ONLY thing it has to do with F is that the notes of the technically correct scale (C Mixolydian) are the same as the F major scale (or "F Ionian mode," just so you know that I understand even the most basic of mode fundamentals).
Modes have their place, but as I originally said, the only place is that of using them over a root note to get a different sound. Just like Vai or Satriani do. If they have a song in "D Lydian," then it's built upon the scale D-E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D. Though these notes are the same as A major, it's obviously important to know that D is the tonal center, and not A. As I said, this is a valid use for modes.
What I was talking about was when people think "D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian" over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression. That's just a waste of time, because they're all the same scale. It's the same scale all over the fretboard, so your fingers won't know the difference. Your brain knows the difference, and it should be the one dictating which notes to stress and when.
gusfmm said:
This doesn't make any sense. The progression you wrote is clearly in the key of C major. Playing C Mixolydian in the middle of it is certainly a choice, but it wouldn't do anything except make for a weaker line by suggesting a different key when it clearly is not. If you're wanting different sounds in the middle of the phrase, there are certainly other options, but C Mixolydian is probably the dumbest.
Ok I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I didn't say C Dorian, C Mixolydian, and C Ionian. I just said "Dorian, Mixolydian, and Ionian." I thought it would be understood, to someone with at least a rudimentary understanding of modes, that I meant "D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian." All those are, of course, the same scale, just starting on different notes.
Ok ... what the hell? So a C7 chord is suggesting F major harmony? Always? Ok, granted, it's the dominant chord in F. But I guess you've never heard of a style called "blues," where all three chords (I, IV, and V) are dominant. In a blues in C, the underlying harmony of C7 is certainly NOT F. The ONLY thing it has to do with F is that the notes of the technically correct scale (C Mixolydian) are the same as the F major scale (or "F Ionian mode," just so you know that I understand even the most basic of mode fundamentals).
Modes have their place, but as I originally said, the only place is that of using them over a root note to get a different sound. Just like Vai or Satriani do. If they have a song in "D Lydian," then it's built upon the scale D-E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D. Though these notes are the same as A major, it's obviously important to know that D is the tonal center, and not A. As I said, this is a valid use for modes.
What I was talking about was when people think "D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian" over a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression. That's just a waste of time, because they're all the same scale. It's the same scale all over the fretboard, so your fingers won't know the difference. Your brain knows the difference, and it should be the one dictating which notes to stress and when.
famous beagle
Well-known member
gusfmm said:
Ok ... so .... use 1 b3 4 5 b7 from a C note .... that would be C Eb F G Bb ... And that's an A major blues scale? And it doesn't have an A in it?
Surely you're mistaken.
famous beagle said:
Yes, my bad, I meant to say a MINOR third from your (minor pentatonic) root note. That is, if you are playing E minor pentatonic on the 12th fret, and wanted to switch to E major pentatonic, you would just toggle down to the 9th fret and play the equivalent to the C# minor pentatonic shape. For your info, that's called MAJOR PENTATONIC. And the formular is:
1-2-3-5-6
Do an Internet search and I'm sure you would find trillions of sites showing you that.
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famous beagle said:
If you knew something about jazz, you would have never said such a comment. Since guitar players videos are a very entertaining and motivating way to learn something from others, I'd highly recommend you get yourself with Frank Gambale's "Modes, no more mistery". It'd enlighten you considerably and would also open your mind to something else besides the same scale played up and down you think is called "modes".
But first, I recommend you get a crash course in harmony and basic modulation techniques, as it'll help you big time understand how to improvise more freely over several key centers and link that to modal playing.
This is the perfect example of how much you have still to learn. YES, ALWAYS. I think you just picked the worst example. A C7 chord would tell you there is a F major harmony underlined (in the traditional diatonic harmony theory). It is kindda the basis of jazz harmony in fact. Jazz progressions are plentifull of modulations and the only way to tell what key center you are supposed to play on is by the dominant chord.famous beagle said:
However, it is not the case of major7 or minor7 chords, as I mentioned a few messages before for your Dm7 example. a m7 chord itself DOES NOT define any harmonic center.
And this is just the very basic stuff. If you want, we can get into much more about diatonic harmony, atonal harmony, etc. If you really wanted to learn a lot about it, I TRULY recommend you and anyone else to get "Harmony", from Arnold Schomberg. He was, without any doubt, a master of harmony and as some probably know, the father of the atonality and later on, the Dodecaphonism.
Lame, no response.famous beagle said:
You yourself re-read this and tell me if it isn't a pile of horse crap. So you are saying the "technically correct" scale to play over a blues progression is C Mixolydian???? May be for your understanding, but it is not, by any means, the only officially approved and certified as "technically correct" scale. I could play at least a handful of scales over the three basic blues progression chords and sound perfectly fine to anybody who wouldn't know. But if I was to recommend the best scale to play, if you wanted to sound safe and really tonal, would be the minor blues (or pentatonic) scale.famous beagle said:
Hope all this is kind of useful and you get something out of it. If not, I'm sure someone else will.
You speak so freely about it that you give the impression you knew about it. But let me ask you something to see whther you've understood anything: Can you tell me what key they'd be playing on in your example about Satriani's song in D Lydian? Is it D major or A major? Or something else?famous beagle said:
See??? This is what I was telling you before. You think you know about modes 'cause you learned to play the major scale all over the freatboard and the freaking stupid method you learned this from named each position after each mode. WHICH IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. One thing is positions over the fretboard and another, totally different, is scales. What you are doing, in reality, is playing C Ionian all over the fretboard. Period. If you were playing D Dorian, then the emphasys of your playing OUGHT TO BE the note D, as D Dorian is a mode based on D. It sounds a bit tricky, but you've got to get used to it.famous beagle said:
Just to give you another example, I said C# minor pentatonic is the same as E major pentatonic. Right. But if you play the scale from C# to C#, and make really good emphasys on playing the C#s and B (the fifth), it is going to sound more to C# minor than to E (either minor or major). So in order for it to sound like E major pentatonic, although you're using the same shape to play it on the guitar, you've got to emphasize the E's, and it'll still sound as if you're playing in the right key. Because the reality is that C# minor is the major relative of E major, and we said we were playing E major pentatonic, right? That's its reason to be.