Soloing: when to use major or minor pentatonic

If I have to make up a solo to something, then I make up something that fits in with the song, I don't often think about what mode(s) it's in. I construct it note for note and it takes quite some time. But then, I'm not an improviser and play only my own music, so I'm rarely in the situation of having to noodle away to a particular chord structure
 
I think we all now about modes, but the subject is pentatonic scales. I mentioned guys like Angus Young who used them a lot, and that's what I am after. I guess nobody yelled "come on Angus, rock on a dorian for the boys!!!" on an ACDC concert. Please, stay on topic? Pretty please :D ?
 
Sure we can stay on topic - but you have so many more choices with a modal approach than with pentatonics, and they're just as easy to learn and use.
 
foo said:
Sure we can stay on topic - but you have so many more choices with a modal approach than with pentatonics, and they're just as easy to learn and use.
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This isn't necessarily true. Pentatonics are great for superimposing over different chords and highlighting the extensions that you want to highlight. For example, if you play Em pentatonic (E-G-A-B-D) over C, you end up coloring the C chord as a Cmaj9 (or actually Cmaj13 if you include the A note). Sure it's possible to do that with the C Ionian mode as well, but the point is that by superimposing different pent. scales, you can automatically play the extensions you want to, without having to sort through the other 2 "questionable" notes of the scale.

Pentatonics are extremely useful. Modes are extremely overhyped and misunderstood.
 
I got stuck w/ pentatonics and when I learned major scales, it all opened up for me.

It also depends a lot on what the melody is and what the bass player is playing.

Listen to Chuck Berry, he's the guy who combined country (major) and blues (minor pentatonic) and well, you know the rest of the story. Analize his licks and you'll see he's switching between major scale and minor pent in the same solo.

then you can also lead the next chord change and play the scale that matches the next chord but not the present chord and when it comes around, it flows right in.

you've only got 12 tones, 8 for a maj/min scale, take 2 out, you got maj/min pent. there's only 4 other notes that could also work, but shouldn't, unless you make em fit. It's all fun.
 
junplugged said:
I got stuck w/ pentatonics and when I learned major scales, it all opened up for me.

It also depends a lot on what the melody is and what the bass player is playing.

Listen to Chuck Berry, he's the guy who combined country (major) and blues (minor pentatonic) and well, you know the rest of the story. Analize his licks and you'll see he's switching between major scale and minor pent in the same solo.

then you can also lead the next chord change and play the scale that matches the next chord but not the present chord and when it comes around, it flows right in.

you've only got 12 tones, 8 for a maj/min scale, take 2 out, you got maj/min pent. there's only 4 other notes that could also work, but shouldn't, unless you make em fit. It's all fun.
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You're right about Chuck combining major and minor. He was a master at that. But there's not 8 tones in a major/minor scale. There's 7. After that, you're just repeating the octave. There's 5 in a pentatonic scale, not 6. Hence the name "penta" tonic.

I think a lot of people just think that you can only play an A major pentatonic scale over an A major chord, or an A minor pentatonic scale over an A minor chord. If that's the way someone is thinking, then it surely is going to get old quickly (although there's still a LOT you can do with just five notes!). But pentatonics are so much more useful than that. You can superimpose them on different chords to get all kinds of fresh sounds. You need to know modes too, but people make too big of a deal with them. Once you learn your major scales, you know all the modes as well.
 
famous beagle said:
This isn't necessarily true. Pentatonics are great for superimposing over different chords and highlighting the extensions that you want to highlight. For example, if you play Em pentatonic (E-G-A-B-D) over C, you end up coloring the C chord as a Cmaj9 (or actually Cmaj13 if you include the A note). Sure it's possible to do that with the C Ionian mode as well, but the point is that by superimposing different pent. scales, you can automatically play the extensions you want to, without having to sort through the other 2 "questionable" notes of the scale.

Pentatonics are extremely useful. Modes are extremely overhyped and misunderstood.
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I didn't say pentatonics arne't useful - they are.

Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but if you have the permutations of 7 notes (which is the usual compement of notes you get with a mode) versus the 5 notes you get with a pentatonic, it seems to me that you have many more choices with the 7.

As far as being overhyped and misunderstood, you may be right. But if I was looking for 'superimposing' opportunites, I certainly wouldn't use pentatonics. I would take Larry Carlton's triadic approach, or the routine jazzer approach of various substitutions (eg Flat V arpeggios etc.)

I think it comes down to what works for you.

. . . and modes work really well for me, in combination with arpeggios and arpeggios substitions.
 
foo said:
I didn't say pentatonics arne't useful - they are.

Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but if you have the permutations of 7 notes (which is the usual compement of notes you get with a mode) versus the 5 notes you get with a pentatonic, it seems to me that you have many more choices with the 7.

As far as being overhyped and misunderstood, you may be right. But if I was looking for 'superimposing' opportunites, I certainly wouldn't use pentatonics. I would take Larry Carlton's triadic approach, or the routine jazzer approach of various substitutions (eg Flat V arpeggios etc.)

I think it comes down to what works for you.

. . . and modes work really well for me, in combination with arpeggios and arpeggios substitions.
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You're right. It's about what works for you. What I meant about pentatonics being useful when superimposing for extensions is that you don't have to think about much. You mentioned superimposing triads. This is the same type of approach. When you just say "play the Ionian mode over a major 7th chord" or "play a Lydian mode over a major 7th chord," you still have a lot of things to consider. You have seven different notes, and if you're going for a certain sound, not all of them will work. But if you superimpose pentatonics or triads, you're dealing only with the notes that will give you the sound you're looking for.

You said you have more choices with seven notes that you do with five, but then you went on to say that you like to superimpose triads, which have only three notes! So I don't really understand your logic there. Not that I don't like to use triads, because I use them all the time. I superimpose all kinds of stuff---mostly triads and pentatonics. The reason I don't like to just think in terms of modes is that it's like "here's 7 notes ... make a melody." It's easier for me to think in smaller chunks of notes (3, 4, or 5) at different times to get different specific sounds. If you play a D triad over a C chord, you'll get the 9th, #11th, and 13th. And although those notes all come from the C Lydian mode, you also have notes in that mode that maybe you don't want to use at times. So I like to think in terms of triads and pentatonics for that reason most of the time.

And I think more people superimpose pentatonics than you think. I know Frank Gambale and Eric Johnson do it extensively, as well as John McLaughlin and Scott Henderson.
 
Logic?

Uh-oh!

I kind of float in and out of modes and arpeggios - it's the sound that I hear in my mind's ear that determines how I get there.

In theory anyway.

I'm not a great fan of the players you mention - even tho' they're all great players. I have Eric Johnson's 'Cliffs of Dover' CD (whatever it's real name is), but the others are too much 'sewing machine' and not enough 'I'm going to let these three notes say a whole bunch' for me.
Scott Henderson did a very cool tune called 'Boat Gig' which is really funny (and I can identify with) - and has a great ending.

I think I prefer (early) Carlton - or even better, Robben Ford.
 
modes versus pentatonics

Hey, Beagle and Foo, I have been following this thread and both your views with interest...it would be great if we could come up with a nice progression and hear both your takes on solos using your own methods...that would be very interesting....

Indio
 
Indio said:
Hey, Beagle and Foo, I have been following this thread and both your views with interest...it would be great if we could come up with a nice progression and hear both your takes on solos using your own methods...that would be very interesting....

Indio
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Let's use this progression:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=154343

:D :D

Limiting it to the first eight chords, and not using chords that posters were too lazy to figure out, that's:

C - Bsus4 - E7#9 - D5 - C7#9 - D/F# - Eb7 - E7#9

Who's gonna record this? :D
 
foo said:
Logic?

Uh-oh!

I kind of float in and out of modes and arpeggios - it's the sound that I hear in my mind's ear that determines how I get there.

In theory anyway.

I'm not a great fan of the players you mention - even tho' they're all great players. I have Eric Johnson's 'Cliffs of Dover' CD (whatever it's real name is), but the others are too much 'sewing machine' and not enough 'I'm going to let these three notes say a whole bunch' for me.
Scott Henderson did a very cool tune called 'Boat Gig' which is really funny (and I can identify with) - and has a great ending.

I think I prefer (early) Carlton - or even better, Robben Ford.
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I'm not necessarily a big fan of the people I mentioned either. I was just mentioning them because they make use of pentatonics often. I do like some stuff from each of them though.

Carlton is great (though sometimes a bit cheesy), but I like Robben Ford even more. He's one of my favorite all-time players. However, He's not going to make a solid case for using modes really, is he? He's mostly major/minor pentatonic, blues scale, then some altered scales, occasionally some Dorian or Mixolydian. But he's definitely not a "modal" player, like ... I don't know ... Satriani I guess. Who are some players that think modally that you like?

Mshilarious: That progression doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. If you want to hear recordings of my "pentatonic approach," then I've got plenty. I wrote a book for Hal Leonard called, oddly enough, "Pentatonic Scales for Guitar: the Essential Guide." I could upload some of those audio examples if you wanted to hear.
 
audio examples

Ok well I put a few audio examples up on my soundclick site for anyone who's interested. These all use pentatonic scales (or blues scales) as the basis for the improvisation. They're all pretty short, so it won't take long to check them out if you'd like.

The examples are all of the ones except "That's What I'd Say," which is a vocal song.

Oh, these are from my book, so they're mixed with the solo guitar panned hard to one side and all the other instruments panned hard to the other side so the reader could isolate or remove the lead part.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/chadjohnsonmusic.htm
 
When all else fails, shift into the relative (harmonic) minor (Am=C) and run minor pentatonic scales, just be sure to get your relative starting note right and if a note sounds off, bend the hell out of it. It's not really quite that simple but it is a good way to fake your way through a lot of blusey sounding riffs. Before anyone gets mad at me, please realize that I am trying to be a little sarcastic here (I"m just in one of those moods) but the truth is , I do know some players who try making it with only this tiny bit of knowledge, and they wonder why producers aren't beating on their door....Duhhhhh.
 
famous beagle said:
Mshilarious: That progression doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. If you want to hear recordings of my "pentatonic approach," then I've got plenty.
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In case you missed the three 'big grin' smiley faces, that was a bit of a joke, just a random progression from a thread where people posted their favorite chords :rolleyes:

I don't really need to hear examples of pentatonic scales, but thanks for the offer. In case I get lonely, I have a CD of Chinese traditional music. You should check out some of those pipa players, they can really shred ;)

My view is that any approach based on a formula will sound formulaic. Why not write a melody, and then use theory to fill in the harmony? Working the other way around tends to rehash what's already been done. Hence the examples cited in this thread, like Carlton, Satriani, Johnson, McLaughlin . . . this stuff is all twenty or thirty years old.

I've seen Carlton and McLaughlin in concert. When I saw McLaughlin, I was sitting way stage left, McLaughlin was stage left facing right, so we were looking at his back. Towards the end of the show, one guy near me yelled "show us your fingers, John!" so he turned towards us and strummed a few C chords.

Moral of the story: if you want to learn to play a good solo, stop listening to guitar heros and start listening to great melodies. It doesn't matter what the instrument is. Allan Holdsworth listened to John Coltrane. McLaughlin studied Indian music. Malmsteen revered Bach and Paganini. My tastes run to Debussy (who liked whole-tone scales) and Schoenberg (who never met a note he didn't like).

Y'all gotta find your own muse. Failing that, just play anything. There are only twelve notes in the West, seven of them are in the right key, three of them are close, that only leaves two that are going to be challenging. Just remember what note you want to end on (that is it's good to know the first and fifth), and don't lose your place so you can finish strong.
 
I read in the liner notes of "Kind Of Blue" that one of the Allman Bros listened to "Kind Of Blue" before every show. Or something like that.
 
OK how about a serious progression: rhythm changes, whatever key you like. We'll have the pentatonics vs. the modals vs. the chromatics vs. whoever else wants to play.

I'll represent the chromatics. Who's gonna record the changes?
 
mshilarious said:
In case you missed the three 'big grin' smiley faces, that was a bit of a joke, just a random progression from a thread where people posted their favorite chords :rolleyes:

I don't really need to hear examples of pentatonic scales, but thanks for the offer. In case I get lonely, I have a CD of Chinese traditional music. You should check out some of those pipa players, they can really shred ;)

My view is that any approach based on a formula will sound formulaic. Why not write a melody, and then use theory to fill in the harmony? Working the other way around tends to rehash what's already been done. Hence the examples cited in this thread, like Carlton, Satriani, Johnson, McLaughlin . . . this stuff is all twenty or thirty years old.

I've seen Carlton and McLaughlin in concert. When I saw McLaughlin, I was sitting way stage left, McLaughlin was stage left facing right, so we were looking at his back. Towards the end of the show, one guy near me yelled "show us your fingers, John!" so he turned towards us and strummed a few C chords.

Moral of the story: if you want to learn to play a good solo, stop listening to guitar heros and start listening to great melodies. It doesn't matter what the instrument is. Allan Holdsworth listened to John Coltrane. McLaughlin studied Indian music. Malmsteen revered Bach and Paganini. My tastes run to Debussy (who liked whole-tone scales) and Schoenberg (who never met a note he didn't like).

Y'all gotta find your own muse. Failing that, just play anything. There are only twelve notes in the West, seven of them are in the right key, three of them are close, that only leaves two that are going to be challenging. Just remember what note you want to end on (that is it's good to know the first and fifth), and don't lose your place so you can finish strong.
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Sorry bout that! Sometimes humor is lost on me when dealing with internet boards.
 
mshilarious said:
OK how about a serious progression: rhythm changes, whatever key you like. We'll have the pentatonics vs. the modals vs. the chromatics vs. whoever else wants to play.

I'll represent the chromatics. Who's gonna record the changes?
Click to expand...

Not me!

:eek:

How about Jamie Aebersold?

;)
 
Iguess as far as players who use modes, there's not a lot of guitar players that I really like who use a modal approach.

I liked Santana in the late 60's - until I learned a little bit of theory and heard some better players - then I liked Al Dimeola (and still do on some things), but I use the modes as a method of 'mental organization' rather than a 'here's how I play' thing.

As far as 'how does it sound when you put it together', check out 'Forgotten Blame' on the Home Recording Comp CD II. It's all me except the lyrics and vocals.

Both solos were done in one take each, and I think the fills were too, but possibly moved into different places to better suit the lyrics.
 
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