Soft Sytns: Acoustic... instruments???

  • Thread starter Thread starter Forte
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Why? Does he get paid to post? Cus if he is, I can understand why he's got so much money.... ;)
 
Tex... You gettin paid to post?
Damn, no wonder you have so many...:mad:
 
Sorry to ruin the PAD party :rolleyes: :D
IMO the reason acoustic instruments sound the way they do is because they are an INSTRUMENT being played. The air that flows through or around them, the natural plucking or keying, the kind of little nuances that synths just don't have. I have a friend who uses a Kurzweil box on his keyboard and he gets better results than I've heard from plugins, but for me plugins are only good at emulating other electronics, like amps or organs, that sort of thing. My $.02

carry on, back to padding..... ;) :cool:
 
OK! Well said!:D
Modules or keys definitely have a better sound to them as far as I've found. I have several soft synths that I love as well. But they just don't sound quite as "dynamic" as a real instrument. And your right, nothing sounds quite like a real acoustical instrument. But some synths do get close and in some cases better, depending on what kind of sound you need.:)
 
So, your saying hardware would be the way to go? I mean, sure, if I could get an orchestra, that would be cool, but I'll have to settle for synths. Still, I'm just learning about synths, and frankly, it seems a lot harder than learning an acoustic instrument.
 
Harder than what kind of acoustic instrument? Maybe if your in Emmit Otter's jug band Christmas... I'm trying to slowly learn the guitar, and it's a whole lot harder than learning keys. I think.

What do you have now ,what's your budget and what kind of music do you aspire to create? And do you know how to play anything, or know anything at all about about music in general?
 
I play guitar, but I've managed to teach my self some drums and very little violin - I don't have keys, but I did teach my self some. As soon as I get my own keys, it should be no problem transferring what I know from guitar to piano (chords, scales, etc.)
Right now, I have nTrack and Cool Edit and have done some pop/rock recordings with me playing bass, guitar, drums, and vocals (those of which I have). However, I want to make soundtracks for media (TV, movies, games), and want to make fully orchestrated stuff. Obviously, learning how to play every instrument in an orchestra is out... not to mention buying all of them. I don't really think I can get hold of an orchestra either :p.
Anyway, I can play some classical stuff on guitar, but want more instruments involved; I figured synths would be the way to go, after all, I've heard some great stuff done on synths.
However, I don't know a thing about "computer" music. I've been doing my research, and this is what I've learned:
  • Need a sequencer; the top three sequencers on the market seem to be Sonar, Logic, and Cubase.
  • Need "plug-in instruments" and/or synths; currently, I've been looking into soft-synths only.
  • Need samplers
  • Need MIDI keyboard.

I think those are the tools you need - those of which I have none of. I think I've pretty much made mind up on Cubase, but it's not set in stone. Right now though, I'm concentrating on synths. I guess I'll have keep looking since you say modules and keys are the way to go. I know a bit about keys, but nothing about modules. Still learning though....
 
Alright, I've been doing more research on emulating "acoustic" instruments via computers and MIDI and I've come to realize it's a lot harder than just learning another instrument. Why?
Because, in order to be real good, good and convincing, not only do you have to have background knowledge of the instruments you're trying to emulate, but you also have to be a bit of a computer programmer - at the least know your way around a computer. Gah! It's like trying to master two fields, plus, every instrument you’re trying to emulate!
 
Hey, Tex, I looked into the Orchestral ROM for the Kurzweil K. Isn't it baisically just a "plug-in" for your keyboard? How's that different from getting a plug-in for your soft synth and playing it with a MIDI keyboard? It's not that expensive Kurzweil that's behind the sound, it's the ROM isn't it? Since the ROM is just data then, I think, getting data that can emulate acoutics instrument is the key right? So, isn't VST just that then - data? I haven't had a chance to hear VST yet, but the K. Orchestral ROM does sound pretty good - just too expensive. I can't be sure if it's worth the price yet, but I doubt it is.
 
As far as soft synths go, I don't think there is anything out there that does a particularly bang-up job for orchestral sounds.

Forte, have you considered using a samples. You can find lots of discs out there with real orchestral samples.

barefoot
 
The kurzweil orchestral rom is a memory card for the k2xxx series of synth/workstations. K2500's are pretty cheap these days (as compared to what they are new).But your still looking at at least $1500 for one with the sampler and extra rom, and sample memory. It would give you everything that you've asked for though. So would a korg triton or a yamaha motif. Those are the top 3 synth workstations.
You can also do all of that with software. But like we said, the sound isn't gonna be quite what it would be with a real instrument, and your right. There is quite a learning curve either way you go.
Or you could just get the right modules for the sounds you want, with either a controller or a less evpensive synth as a controller, and use something like cubase as your sequencer/recorder.

Also, check out this months computer music magazine. There's a free soft sampler with it on the cd this month and some other stuff as well. I just got it and I've yet to try it myself, but they ravce about it in the mag.:)
 
I've considered samples, but don't know too much about it. I have to do a lot more research before I make up my mind.

I went to my local music store today and had a chance to play with a Kurzweil that had the Orchestral ROM - I wasn't overly impressed, but maybe it's just because I don't know how to play it right.

I really wish there was a way to know how the professionals do it- other than having to go to school. The most professional sounding stuff I've heard is from this guy. I think it's better than the samples on the actual Kurzweil web-site. I wish I knew what he used though.... :(
 
Forte said:
Hey, Tex, I looked into the Orchestral ROM for the Kurzweil K. Isn't it baisically just a "plug-in" for your keyboard? How's that different from getting a plug-in for your soft synth and playing it with a MIDI keyboard? It's not that expensive Kurzweil that's behind the sound, it's the ROM isn't it? Since the ROM is just data then, I think, getting data that can emulate acoutics instrument is the key right? So, isn't VST just that then - data? I haven't had a chance to hear VST yet, but the K. Orchestral ROM does sound pretty good - just too expensive. I can't be sure if it's worth the price yet, but I doubt it is.
Click to expand...

In theory you are absolutely correct. The truth is that the quality of the sound using a Softsynth will vary according to your computer. There are polyphony and multitmbral issues based on your system and then there is the whole latency issue while playing them.

With a hardware synth you know exactly what you are getting and exactly how it should sound. There is also no noticeable latency and it will spare up those resources on your computer for recording.

I haven't done any extensive work with softsynths so I'm definately no expert on them. As soon as I hear one I like I'll probably learn all about them.

I have done a lot of instrumental music and I like the following synths:

Korgs /Any of the M,O, Triton series are good for basic string pad sounds and they help thicken up the sound.

Emu/ In general they are kind of thin sounding but they have great percussion and the strings have a nice rosiny sound that blends well with the others. Good woodwinds.

Kurzweil/ Kseries- Very similar to the korgs but a little more airy sounding. Great filter effects for weird stuff and great multi orchestra string patches.

If you want to do any brass then get a good sampler and check out the libaries. I've yet to hear a ROM based keyboard do good brass sounds.
 
Thanks again for your advice Tex, and you're right, the Kurzweil K. emulates strings rather impressively, but the horns are pretty lame - I guess that's why I wasn't overly impressed by it - especially at it's price.

In any case, I took Barefoot's advice and have looked into samples; this is what I've learned:
  • Samples are "real sound segments"; this probably makes it better than synths in terms of realism.
  • Soundfonts are samples converted into .sf2 files; this allows it to be more easily manipulated via MIDI and is triggered by your sequencer.
  • Because soundfonts are easily manipulated, it becomes possible to emulate the "trills, slide-ins, slide-offs, bends, key velocity profiling, delayed vibrato and the like" found in acoustic instruments, hence, making it sound more realistic (if you know how to manipulate the data correctly).
  • Conclusion: Soundfonts are the way to go. :D

Am I right? :confused:
 
There's a thousand different ways to make a million different sounds. It's putting them together to make music that's the tricky part.
 
Forte said:
In any case, I took Barefoot's advice and have looked into samples; this is what I've learned:
  • Samples are "real sound segments"; this probably makes it better than synths in terms of realism.
  • Soundfonts are samples converted into .sf2 files; this allows it to be more easily manipulated via MIDI and is triggered by your sequencer.
  • Because soundfonts are easily manipulated, it becomes possible to emulate the "trills, slide-ins, slide-offs, bends, key velocity profiling, delayed vibrato and the like" found in acoustic instruments, hence, making it sound more realistic (if you know how to manipulate the data correctly).
  • Conclusion: Soundfonts are the way to go. :D

Am I right? :confused:
Click to expand...

There is no difference between using soudfonts or any other sample based synth except for the issues I mentioned earlier. All those keyboards I mentioned use samples and some let you load in new ones. I'm not dicouraging you from trying softsynths just letting you know eventually you will probably go with some keyboards if your really serious abou it.
 
TexRoadkill said:
There is no difference between using soudfonts or any other sample based synth except for the issues I mentioned earlier. All those keyboards I mentioned use samples and some let you load in new ones. I'm not dicouraging you from trying softsynths just letting you know eventually you will probably go with some keyboards if your really serious abou it.
Click to expand...
What I was suggesting, but didn't make very clear, was using samples in conjuction with a software based sampler, multitrack, Acid, or the like. This would be much cheaper than buying a keyboard, and personally I find it far more flexible.

barefoot
 
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