Second floor studio questions

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Sorry.....I'm really not trying to "fool" anybody. Just bad drawings I guess.

No, its me thats sorry. You misinterpreted my intent. I didn't mean to imply that you tried to fool anyone. I meant...your PLAN SECTION was INCORRECT, which is the whole point of drawings. If they are incorrect then people interpret them wrong. Anyway, no harm done.

Are you saying do RC on the west and east walls or all the walls?

All of them. And frankly, if ISOLATION is your prime criteria(and I think it is or why would you go to this trouble to only half-isolate which might as well be zero) it would behoove you to consider the windows as "decoration" on the exterior, and frame in window fillers. We'll show you how if thats your decision. Otherwise, two leafs of HEAVY glass with a transmission loss equal to or greater than your final wall design is in order.

I know the RC is for decoupling, but would adding the extra mass to the roof sheathing give enough STC to make RC unnecessary?

That depends on the db profile you intend to generate up there. In otherwords, do you KNOW how loud it will be? I doubt it. Thats why you need to overkill to guarantee the transmission loss will be greater than the db profile. However, lets put it this way. If you are generating HEAVY METAL rock, at 110db, I would say you will fail. Even 4 or 5 layers could possibly fail at that volume, if all flanking paths aren't taken seriously. But see my disclaimer

I was thinking that any sound escaping from the roof would be hard to hear on the ground since it would be so high up, so I wasn't that concerned about it.o I wasn't that concerned about it. I am more concerned with the south wall and the floor. Am I thinking wrong?

I believe so. Sound propagates in a hemispherical wavefront. You can hear jets 1000 ft above, correct? I beleive that sound escaping from a second floor is WORSE, as it can spread farther, having very few objects to diffract around as sound generated at ground level. But see my disclaimer. However, imagin your house is on the highest hill overlooking a valley. Sound would travel MUCH farther, although for every doubling of distance it looses 6db. Believe me. I live on said hill.

What exactly are you talking about on the "ROLLOUT fiberglass/puck" flooring?

Here is one type of underlayment.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/lpsoundmatt.html
Here is the type I described.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rimwood.html
And yes, it would create a VENTED third leaf, although this would DECOUPLE and act the same as RC on the wall, thereby creating a quasi "room within a room". I believe the room below is a garage, so who cares. It acts as a sound lock, no? But my disclaimer says it all.

Well, its time for work and I'm outta time. I'll be back.

DISCLAIMER....These are only opinions from a NON EXPERT.
fitZ

 

[WagTheDog]

it would behoove you to consider the windows as "decoration" on the exterior, and frame in window fillers. We'll show you how if thats your decision. Otherwise, two leafs of HEAVY glass with a transmission loss equal to or greater than your final wall design is in order.

I plan on painting a piece of sheetrock black, then nailing it up behind the window, then add a new interior wall. I would have liked to keep the window, but I figured it would be a weak point in all this, so I'm just going to wall it in.


I assume then that you are talking about putting sheetrock between the rafters, then using RC on the rafters for the interior walls?

I believe the room below is a garage, so who cares. It acts as a sound lock, no?

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but it's not just the neighbors that I'm trying to isolate from. My youngest daughter tends to be somewhat devious/nosey in her observations, and likes to eavesdrop on everything. I'd kind of like to be free of inhibitions in the studio without worrying about her listening in down in the garage. Besides, the studio will give me a good place to go scream out my frustrations at her, in a pleasant and friendly environment

Here is a closeup of the door area with questions:

Just so I understand this concept.....if I put a wood support between the existing studs and the new wall studs, I have or have not ruined my design? This drawing is coming in the existing door, turning immediately left, and looking at the new door that will be framed in:

The floor.....do I need to put it down first, then the walls? Or the walls first, then the floor? Excuse me if I misunderstood, but you're suggesting a layer of the underlayment, then the pucks, then the MDF? Do the pucks go on top of the underlayment or does the underlayment go around the pucks, or does it matter? How does the MDF attach, do you nail thru the MDF into the pucks?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to do this right!!!

 

[Innovations]

As far as the question about closing off those gaps I would close them off for the purposes of esthetics but with something that is not going to create a leaf or break the decoupling of the inner and outer leaf.

Which brings up a question of bracing. As you are starting to guess the inner 'box of a box-in-box construction can have sway issues. I would suggest going to the website for kinetics noise control. They sell some sway braces that can be used to brace the inner wall to the outer while remaining decoupled.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I would suggest going to the website for kinetics noise control. They sell some sway braces that can be used to brace the inner wall to the outer while remaining decoupled.

Only if you plan on building double walls. Using RC, there is no need. However, there are TONS of details to work out PRIOR to starting, not to mention applying for permits. Consider this. Studio construction is NOT your run of the mill type affair. There are things that need to be APPROVED by your local permitting authority, and some of these things may actually jeprodize life, limb and property. Like FIRESTOPS. Some juristictions may not allow some type of details as they might allow fire to go where you don't want it to go. However, to meet code, it might compromise a decoupling detail. Hence, detailing all points in a section drawing for submitting to BID for approval. Believe me. It is VERY important. Heres why.
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442

As an example of other details, consider door jambs with RC. Here is what I mean. This is a detail for a STAGGERED STUD door jamb. Notice the DECOUPLING of the jamb from one leaf. In this case, the jamb is OVERSIZED(width of jamb material to allow the casing to "float" on caulking. It is these kind of details that will keep your inner leaf from being compromised. Remember, one little moment of not caring, or thinking a small detail won't matter....well, hindsight is 20/20. Another area of concern is electrical. Penetrations in the innerleaf envelope for lighting and outlet boxes can become potential flanking paths and or leakage into what should be a HERMETICALLY sealed airgap. Another concern when it comes to firestops is coupling the two leafs together, thereby creating another flanking path. Anyway, here is the jamb detail(for example purposes only)

I want to stress something here though. I believe you need to research everything you can before commiting to a series of solutions. THEN, and ONLY then can you begin to DETAIL the actual construction. ONE oversight or misunderstanding can cost mucho time and money and MAY not even be feasable to redo or fix. For instance. I know of one member here who shiethed the ENTIRE basement with OSB BEFORE installing RC. He then attatched the RC to the OSB and then drywalled. Even though the extra mass may have helped, it totally negated the advantage of using RC not to mention creating a three leaf system. Hence my suggestion of RESEARCHING each and every detail of the solutions you choose. Ok, thats all I have time for at the moment. Remember my disclaimer though. And one other thing. Anything I say here is totally subject to the EXPERTS disapproval. All I can do is suggest things till someone says...."Hey you fucking idiot, you got it all WRONG!! Thats how I learn too. I'll be back.
fitZ

 

[WagTheDog]

The problem I have with RC is the potential for short-circuits.....would Green Glue be a better solution? Also, would Green Glue be better than underlay/pucks/MDF for the floor?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

.would Green Glue be a better solution? Also, would Green Glue be better than underlay/pucks/MDF for the floor?

No, GG is not a decoupler substitute. From what I understand, it makes 2 or more layers act as 1 thick layer, thereby making it STIFFER, which lowers the coincidence dip frequency.

This will explain it. Scroll down to Brian Daytons explanation. He works for the company that makes it.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2362&start=20

As far as potential for short circuiting the RC...well, thats what planning and close tolerance construction is all about. It ain't easy, but doable if you know exactly what you have to do, plan it out in detail, and execute it with precision.
fitZ

 

[WagTheDog]

Read the article.....that was really a good explanation.....made sense to me.....thanks for pointing it out.

Something I don't understand about the flooring.....right now it's thick plywood on top of the 2X12 joists with insulation underneath. If I did pucks, I would glue them onto the existing plywood flooring, put underlayment down (cut holes for the pucks or put on top of pucks?), then MDF? How does the MDF attach to the pucks, just sit on top of them or glue on top of the pucks? I don't figure nailing them is the answer since it takes out the decoupling effect?

Should I do the floor before or after the walls?

So you are recommending doing RC rather than attach sheetrock to wood studs and using Green Glue? Would RC hold 2 5/8" sheets of sheetrock at the 50 degree angle of my roofline?

Thanks!

 

[Innovations]

Something I don't understand about the flooring.....right now it's thick plywood on top of the 2X12 joists with insulation underneath. If I did pucks, I would glue them onto the existing plywood flooring, put underlayment down (cut holes for the pucks or put on top of pucks?), then MDF? How does the MDF attach to the pucks, just sit on top of them or glue on top of the pucks? I don't figure nailing them is the answer since it takes out the decoupling effect?

Should I do the floor before or after the walls?

So you are recommending doing RC rather than attach sheetrock to wood studs and using Green Glue? Would RC hold 2 5/8" sheets of sheetrock at the 50 degree angle of my roofline?

Thanks!

If you went with pucks you would place the pucks on the floor, install sleepers on top of the pucks, and then screw your new floor to the sleepers. As for Glue I would most likely just use a spot of adhesive to keep them in place during assembly.

Most floated floor constructions place the inner wall on top of the floated floor, this requires extra pucks on the perimiter though.

This of course brings you back to your original question. A floated floor will give you a three leaf assembly but it would be a decoupled three leaf assembly. gluing extra mass to the subfloor would be a two leaf solution but it would not be decoupled.

 

[WagTheDog]

Thanks.....what exactly are "sleepers"?

What is your opinion on Green Glue vrs RC?

 

[Innovations]

Thanks.....what exactly are "sleepers"?

What is your opinion on Green Glue vrs RC?

Sleepers are 2x4's laid on their side (sleeping). But I noticed that what Kinetics is pushing are using their KIP pads directly under a double layer of subflooring. In fact they have it packaged along with the fiberglass in something called RIM (rollout isolation material). Which while cool may be more expensive than sourcing the pads and fiberglass separately.

As far as Green Glue vs RC they are doing two different things. If you are concerned about the short circuits of RC then I would suggest using isolated RC mounts such as RSIC-1 or ISOMAX. Because these use hat channel and are slightly off of the wall the incidence of short circuits is much lower.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Something I don't understand about the flooring.....right now it's thick plywood on top of the 2X12 joists with insulation underneath. If I did pucks, I would glue them onto the existing plywood flooring, put underlayment down (cut holes for the pucks or put on top of pucks?), then MDF?

Howdy Wag.

Well, it looks like Inno posted before I could reply. I believe he and I are talking about TWO different methods for the floor.
Inno is talking about YOU using these pucks to support ANOTHER FRAMED FLOOR
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/hvac/kip.html

I'm not. I'm talking about this.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rimwood.html

Ok, heres the thing. The "roll out system" is exactly what it implys You roll it out BETWEEN WALLS. This is a type of FLOATING FLOOR "fiberglass mat". The pucks are integeral in the roll. You don't have to do nothing but cut it to size, just like vinyl flooring. There is also a roll out perimeter spacer/seal that you place up against the walls prior to rolling out the mat. This keeps it from moving as long as you correctly fit the fiberglass mat between these spacers. The pucks are made from a "heat treated and compressed fiberglass specifically designed to decouple a layer of ply and finish floor installed on top of it, from the existing subfloor beneith it. Once the mat is in place, this new plywood substrate is laid on top of it, and then a finish floor on top of the ply. NOTHING is to be fastened through the mat...thats why it's called a "floating floor". Laminate floors are the same thing..they "float" on a thin layer of foam. See my drawing. Anyway, thats pretty much as much as I know about it. If you are considering this system, I'm sure there is a vendor in your area listed on the manufacturers website. You can find out everything about it from them.

So you are recommending doing RC rather than attach sheetrock to wood studs and using Green Glue? Would RC hold 2 5/8" sheets of sheetrock at the 50 degree angle of my roofline?

Well, in that regard, and to simplify installation, I'm going to suggest an alternative solution. Here is the product. Its called IsoMax( Risc clip). Its a resiliant bracket that fastens directly to the roof rafters, and surrounds a resiliant isolator which in turn supports a typical hat channel. The drywall fastens to the hat channel. Its probably more expensive, but more tolerance for screws. AND, it OUTPERFORMS Resiliant channel

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/isomax/index.html
Here is the comparison to RC.
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/pdf/Isomax_Vs_Rc.pdf

This still depends on whether they can be used in this situation, as they are designed for vertical walls. You should call them if you're interested and have them verify whether they can be used like this. Personally, I don't see why not because they can be used on ceilings, DUH! .

One thing that would help us here, is to take photos of the roof/floor intersections, and as many pictures as you can of the areas that are not vertical walls...like at the door. That intersection is a real odd one that is shown in one of your pics above. Show as many details as you can. Mounting RC and drywall on some of this may be unusual situations and may need some blocking or something. Anyway, heres my interpretation of this flooring system in your situation. Without knowing EXACTLY what I'm dealing with in your actual construction, this could be wrong, but its only for illustration anyway.

Well I'm outta time and otta here for now. Later
fitZ

 

[WagTheDog]

You guys are really great......I really appreciate the time and effort you give to these and others questions.

I have read about people doing the tire tread pucks on the floor.......since my ceiling is going to be low anyway, I don't think the "sleepers" method will be the best for me......if I had more ceiling height I'd do it though....

The nearest KineticsNoise dealer is about 160 miles away....not a big problem......I'm curious as to the cost of the "rollout" floor. I'll probably call them today and find out. If I go the DIY route, I'm thinking about putting down a layer of thin mat, cut out holes in the mat for the treads and then gluing the tire treads to the existing floor, then putting glue on top of the treads, then the layer of MDF, then laminate flooring.

The PDF file mentions how the RISC clip is more tolerant of screws (less chance of short-circuits), but I don't understand how. If you have hat channel across the studs and RISC clips on the hat channel at the studs, and you're fixing sheetrock into the hat channel, what's to keep you from accidently putting a screw into the stud? I must be missing something. Also, when attaching sheetrock, do you attach the second layer thru the first layer and into the channel as well? I would assume you do.....2 different lengths of screws then? Is it hard for the screws to go thru the hat channel? I don't know how thick hat channel is, that's why I ask.....
Edit: I called a local Acoustics Builder....they have 7/8" HC in 20 and 25 gauge....which would be better?

If I go the RC/RISC route, does that solve all my decoupling issues with the walls and ceiling?

Sorry to be such a PITA with all this.....it just seems like the potential for truly wasting a lot of money is really high with a construction like this, and I'm finding that the more I learn the more stupid I feel.

I will take some pictures tonight and post them......

 

[Innovations]

I have read about people doing the tire tread pucks on the floor.......since my ceiling is going to be low anyway, I don't think the "sleepers" method will be the best for me......if I had more ceiling height I'd do it though....

Apparently the sleepers is the older state of the art and the newer technique is the iso pads with two layers of subfloor above.

The nearest KineticsNoise dealer is about 160 miles away....not a big problem......I'm curious as to the cost of the "rollout" floor. I'll probably call them today and find out. If I go the DIY route, I'm thinking about putting down a layer of thin mat, cut out holes in the mat for the treads and then gluing the tire treads to the existing floor, then putting glue on top of the treads, then the layer of MDF, then laminate flooring.

You'll have to find out the cost from them, but one of the main costs is transportation so you might be better off buying the small and unique item (the isolation pads) from them and sourcing the commonplace part (insulation) locally.

As for the DIY isolators using tire treads I would have to say that I would not recommend that. You would be dealing with curved surfaces, uneven heights, and a rubber type for a completely different purpose. If you can't afford the right stuff and have to improvize I would suggest cutting rubber pucks from athletic or playground surfaces. but pay close attention to compression bearing. If is is squashed flat it is not going to isolate much of anythinb.

The PDF file mentions how the RISC clip is more tolerant of screws (less chance of short-circuits), but I don't understand how. If you have hat channel across the studs and RISC clips on the hat channel at the studs, and you're fixing sheetrock into the hat channel, what's to keep you from accidently putting a screw into the stud? I must be missing something. Also, when attaching sheetrock, do you attach the second layer thru the first layer and into the channel as well? I would assume you do.....2 different lengths of screws then? Is it hard for the screws to go thru the hat channel? I don't know how thick hat channel is, that's why I ask.....
Edit: I called a local Acoustics Builder....they have 7/8" HC in 20 and 25 gauge....which would be better?

First of all it is RSIC, not RISC. And if you deal with Kinetics get a quote on ISOMAX, which do the same thing. There are two reasons why it is less likely to short circuit. The first is that it is farther away from the stud so there is more of a safety factor. The second is that when pressed against while screwing in the drywall the hat channel is less likely to collapse and allow the screw to touch the stud. As for the second layer, that is where the green glue or whatever helps out. The screws wind up mostly being used to hold the two pieces together until the glue cures. Do a search on Drywall Laminating Screw.

 

[WagTheDog]

As for the second layer, that is where the green glue or whatever helps out. The screws wind up mostly being used to hold the two pieces together until the glue cures

Do most people use some sort of substance between their sheetrock layers or do they just attach one layer bare onto the second?

I see what you are saying about the tire treads.....I need to look for another solution to that, something straighter and consistent.

Just called the KineticsNoise dealer here in Texas. The IsoMax clips come 72 to a box, $5.75 per clip, $414 total.......OUCH!

 

[Innovations]

Calculate how many you will really need and then get quotes between various dealers for exactly that number and compare with quotes from dealers of the RSIC-1 clip. These dealers expect to be bargained down by contractors so their opening quote is always high.

But honestly they will seem expensive for what they are, but consider that you are saving floor space and expense of an entirely separate interior wall and getting nearly the same isolation.

As for the second layer of gypsum board different people use different things, usually either Liquid Nails (they have a special formulation for drywall) or just a thinned down coat of wallboard compound.

 

[WagTheDog]

I've called about a dozen dealers.....the average price of the RSIC-1 clips are $5.50/clip . I'm getting some different estimates on quantity though (imagine THAT!). Most have said they can be mounted every 4' horizontally, but some are telling me every 2' vertically.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

First of all it is RSIC, not RISC.

Sheeeeeshus, what a moron I can be..Dumb... Won't be the first time though. ha!

As for the second layer of gypsum board different people use different things, usually either Liquid Nails (they have a special formulation for drywall) or just a thinned down coat of wallboard compound.

Hey Inno, I hate to disagree with you but from what I've read directly from Brian Dayton, who works for the company that makes GG, those other products do NOT have the same type of ..elastomeric..(is that the word? )qualities. Something like that . Anyway, its because of this quality that vibration is dampened differently than with Liquid nails or other brands of adhesives.

And Wag, you've got to understand something about the "puck" thing. This type of isolators only work when the pucks are in a SPECIFIC compression under load. Too much or not enough load and you might as well have not used them. Thats why I suggested the specific system. If you must DIY,
I would suggest using these...
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/hvac/kip.html. They come in various load and thickness ratings. However, YOU have to do the weight/distribution calculations. Lots of people have used neoprene, duro 60, but they have a complete floating floor, which I don't think you have the height or the structural support for. Thats why I suggested the system from Kinetics.

Well, I'm outta time today. I'll try to keep up with your progress, but I've got my own studio to work on now. .Finally got another room to put all my stuff in so I can do my own floor. WAHOOO! Its about fucking time
fitZ

 

[WagTheDog]

fitZ, got any pics of your studio? I'd like to see it.

I called a local building supplier who has some 7/8" Hat Channel in 10' lengths.....for 25 gauge it's $2.68, for 20 gauge it's $4.23.....I found another place here in town that deals specifically with high isolation structures....found them too late in the day though, so I'll call them tomorrow.

Here are some pics of the studio.....I started to clean up a little, but then said "NAHHHHH" , so excuse the mess.
Disclaimer: I goofed big time on the north wall (the one with the window).. I have the bottom plate but didn't put in the top plate.....oops.....I also have a gap in the studs at the window (and haven't finished the wall either)....the window will get sheetrocked over, but I don't want to do it yet because the window is the only air source right now....yesterday after I got home from work, the temp in the studio was 122.....right now it's sitting at 114.....it's usually around 110 when I'm working in there, which is another reason the progress is so slow (the other reason is because I don't know what the hell I'm doing )....anyway, here they are:

Reference Layout
Northwest Corner
Northest Ceiling/Wall
Southeast Corner
Ceiling looking South
Southwest Corner
South Wall
Southeast Corner (near existing door)
South Wall/Ceiling (HVAC will go thru here)
South and West Walls
West Wall
Looking Northwest from existing door
Northeast Corner/Wall/New wall/Floor
Existing and new North wall
Northeast Corner
Northeast Corner
Northwest Corner and Floor
West Wall, ceiling, South wall in distance
Northwest Corner
East floor at Northeast Corner

If I do HC/RSIC on all walls and ceiling, do I even need a "new" North and South Wall?

Thanks again for your help, hope the pics make things clearer.

 

[Jack A.]

the temp in the studio was 122.....right now it's sitting at 114.....it's usually around 110 when I'm working in there

You still may want to reconsider closing off those soffit vents, Wag. The route you are taking certainly simplifies construction, but it is inevitably going to give you more of an air conditioning/heating load, even after you get your insulation and inner wall in, than if you had a vented space between the roof and an added, sealed interior "outer leaf." The other issue with roof venting is condensation, which would be a factor where I live but may not be where you are.

Here was Rod Gervais' recommendation about this:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6054&highlight=roof+vent

There would, of course, be additional material/expense entailed in that extra leaf, and a loss of interior space, if it is created as shown in that thread, with a new separately framed inner sloping ceiling. In my similar space, to minimize both cost and space loss, I am thinking that I will add blocks or furring strips alongside my rafters, up against the inside face of the roof deck, that are just wide enough (1" or so) to maintain ventilation (much like the pink foam spacers that keep loose insulation away from the inside face of the roof -- but those would be of little value for sound isolation); then attach a couple layers of GP to those blocks/strips, between the rafters, and caulk them in; then mount RC or RSIC and hat channel across the inner edges of the rafters to attach the inner leaf (2 layers of GP). The rafters should be deep enough to allow an adequate air space (filled with loose pink batts) between the sealed leaves.

 

[WagTheDog]

Jack,

Sounds like a good plan for your studio.......I think I'm going to go back and drill holes in the wood that seal off my soffit board to allow some breathing.....I think that would be the best solution for me.