Roland VS1680: What the hell...

[Aurora]

I just recently started recording with a VS1680 and am about to start serious work on a demo and was wondering if anyone had tips for recording with these little devils. I especially need help with:

*Recording vocals - Compressors, mics, mic pre's; What do I REALLY need?

*Getting a decent mix - Most of the different tracks seem to blend together and nothing maintains its individual character in the mix.

* Onboard Effects - That whole thing confuses the hell outta me.

I've been using it a short while and I've already acheived some pretty decent sounds, but it needs honing. I knowpractice makes better, but if there's someone out there who knows this machine inside and out, a few tips would certainly help. Thanks much in advance.

Rian

 

[BBB]

I just recently started recording with a VS1680 and am about to start serious work on a demo and was wondering if anyone had tips for recording with these little devils. I especially need help with:

*Recording vocals - Compressors, mics, mic pre's; What do I REALLY need?

The mic pre's on the VS aren't incredible. A Mackie is better. A decent dedicated pre is even better yet.

If you are going to compress your input, it is usually better to compress it before A/D conversion. This way you use more bits for better resolution. However, one benefit of using the internal effects is that if you don't use the pre insert, you can remove them. Be that as it may, I've heard mixed reviews about the on board compression.

Regarding mics, of course you should use a Neumann U47. If you don't have $5k for a mic, check out the mic forum regarding good, low end mics such as the Marshall or the Studio Projects mics. Also, if you are really strapped for cash, the mic simulators are pretty decent on the VS effects. Just use a SM57 and the VS will model other mics.

*Getting a decent mix - Most of the different tracks seem to blend together and nothing maintains its individual character in the mix.

This could be a problem with your monitors.

* Onboard Effects - That whole thing confuses the hell outta me.

There's some excellent stuff in there. Reverbs are excellent, choruses are excellent. Mic sims are very good. Guitar Amp sims are better than PODs. Lotsa other great stuff.

I've been using it a short while and I've already acheived some pretty decent sounds, but it needs honing. I knowpractice makes better, but if there's someone out there who knows this machine inside and out, a few tips would certainly help. Thanks much in advance.

If you have any other q's fire them away. Also, check out the Roland forum and check out www.vsplanet.com.


Matt

 

[Aurora]

This is gonna cost me...

Thanks a lot, Matt!! I know I really shouldn't sell myself short, but this is a project studio with a capitol P. I intend on getting 57's, some marshal 603's, and someone's trying to sell me a Marshall VX67 (maybe you could tell me about it; I'm unfamiliar). I'm basically looking in that range (no Neumann's, I'm afraid).

What I would really like to know is whether or not it is worth my money to get a decent mic pre and a decent compressor to use with the 1680. And also, is there a way to record a track w/o comp and then add it later using an external compressor?

Thanks again.

Rian

 

[VirtualSamana]

The 1680s compressors are OK. I would not suggest using them on an incoming mic signal though. Better to insert compression once the track has been recorded (yes, you can do this but a lot of people like to insert compresion before the signal gets recorded to smooth out the peaks.) If you are looking to add compression to your incoming mic signal go for an outboard compressor such as the incredibly cheap real nice compressor often recommended on this site. I'll second the fact that the effects are sweet. I have a VM-3100pro which uses the same stereo effects cards as the 1680. I would definitely invest an outboard pre like the tube MP. A couple of clean guitar sims sound pretty decent but the POD for the most part dusts the roland.

 

[noground]

You can record a signal without compression and then add it later eith an outboard unit using the effects loop... but keep in mind that (unless you have a digital compressor) this will be another D/A and A/D conversion. If you want to know how to do this just ask me; I figured this out before and I can run you through the steps. I've had a chance to compare the preamps on the 1680 to an outboard Symetrix 302 preamp. My ears are not all that trained, and I had to listen a bunch of times to hear the difference, but there is one. I wouldn't say it is a huge difference, so if you have really good mics, this might be the limiting factor and then I'd say go for it. Keep in mind I'm just a beginner and don't know much and also that I only did these tests with overheads at like 20 dB gain, so the preamp was not as much of a factor. I would expect much more unwanted coloration from the 1680 at higher levels. Also, it seems that 1680 users in general point to the preamps as one of the weak points. Also it seems that anyone that was doing a really big project on the 1680 that needed high fidelity would use outboard pres (Victor Wooten did this and some other big names). Hope this helps!

 

[ghoost]

Equally important ... if you can afford it. get a good quality, external convertor`.
Coupled together with a good pre and mic will make more than a noticable differnce.

 

[frank_1]

Real quick... get a Audio Technica 4033 condensor for vocals. I have heard this mic gives you great "bang-for-buck" in the $300 range!

 

[BBB]

Rian,

The Marshall V67 and V67G have gotten very good reviews in the microphones forum on this board. The Studio Projects C1 costs about the same and has had similar reviews. If you really want to be sure about the mic, head to a Guitar Center, Mars, or whatever, and have them record your (or your singer's) vox in their studio so you can A/B the mic's you are interested in.

A good pre is a good idea for the 1680. The Art MP has had good reviews for its price (around $100). An EXCELLENT compressor for the price ($200) to use with the MP is the RNC. Mackie pre's are also very good for the price, especially if you need an external mixer. Some higer end dedicated pres are even better if you want to spend the cash.

I'm pretty sure you can add an external compressor to a recorded track on the 1680, but I would personally use the compressor after the mic pre before A/D conversion. This avoids multiple D/A/D conversions. This also increases resoultion of the recorded signal because you can record a hotter signal when it is compressed.

Also, keep in mind that the Roland guitar sims dust the POD. The clan ones are excellent. The dirty ones aren't stellar alone, but if you use some preliminary gain, like a Tubescreamer, a Rat, a SansAmp GT2, or whatever, you can get incredible tone. I've used this technique to record guitar parts that rival my mic'ed Boogie.


Matt

 

[MrZekeMan]

What about using the onboard compressors whilst tracking? Is there any advantage as far as getting a hotter signal on disk? Or is this only beneficial when using an external compressor?

Taylor

P.S. I've got the V67g and the C-1. They are both nice mics IMO.

 

[BBB]

What about using the onboard compressors whilst tracking? Is there any advantage as far as getting a hotter signal on disk? Or is this only beneficial when using an external compressor?

Taylor,

The onboard compressors will get you a hotter signal to disk when used as a pre insert. However, the onboard compressors are used _after_ A/D conversion. Thus, you will not increase your sample resolution.

 

[MrZekeMan]

BBB,

I don't think I'm understanding you. Are you saying that the only advantage to using and external compressor is that the compression is done in analog before the converter, thus preventing calculations after the signal is converted???

Taylor

 

[BBB]

Taylor,

I guess that could be a benefit.

What I'm saying is that an A/D converter uses the most bits when the hottest signal is present. Thus, when you convert a higher level signal, you get better resolution of the conversion. This gives you a more accurate representation of your signal. This also allows for better processing because your processor has more bits to work with.

If you plan on using compression on a signal, it can be beneficial to use it before A/D conversion. Applying compression before conversion reduces short signal peaks and allows for a hotter singal into the A/D converter. Therefore, you get a more accurate digital signal and you can perform more accurate processing on the signal.

Matt

 

[MrZekeMan]

Okay,

I've got you now. The next thing on my list after I get a set of monitors, is to try and improve my signal chain going into the VS. I'm gonna save my money. I want to get a high end mic pre. From what I've learned on this and other sites, I can really see the importance of having a quality chain going into the machine. Maybe a good external compressor will be on my wish list too.

Taylor

 

[BBB]

Maybe an RNC.

 

[rocky outcrop]

microphones

how about rode microphones . australian made pro mics. these mics are easily up there with the big guns but at a far better price.
check out the nt1 & ntk for the price its hard to find better have a look at the web site . no they hav'nt paid me

 

[MrZekeMan]

Rocky,

This was posted in another thread earlier...

Re Rode mic components.........(I just got off the phone to Rode).

Capsules are Chinese, Rode dont make any here in Aust. at this time. Assembly and some machining and casting is local but again the guy stressed that a lot of their content is sourced overseas. Frankly I felt he was overly defensive about just how much is Aust. and how much is from Asia. But if they wish to keep that end of their business "low-key", so be it.

Learnt some interesting things about Shure and AKG as well.

Keep an open mind my friend.

Peace ............ChrisO

....they apparantly aren't made in Australia for the most part. They are Chinese mics like many of the rest. That doesn't say they aren't good sounding mics. I've never heard them personally.

Taylor