Upgrading home studio for good guitar tracks?

F

Fuzzaholic

New member
Howdi.

I used to record my own demos, and my band's demos, and other band's demos...But that's 15 years or so ago :/
Started out on a Tascam four track. After that I went from a digital recorder to a better digital recorder, to eventually a laptop/daw.

I'm in a new band now, two different ones actually. And I need to be able to record demos to pitch song ideas. Which doesn't mean I want to settle for "okay" recording quality.
I'm picky when it comes to sounds, and I'm cursed with an ear that does hear subtle differences. Also, I'd like to rejuvinate my old recording hobby, just for the fun of it.

In short: Looking for the best approach to improve my "basics". What's the cheapest/easiest way to get my guitar tracks to the next level? Right now they're kinda undefined and bland.
I'm not using anything fancy, it's all pretty bread and butter. I sold most of my old mics, this is what I'm left with:

- DAW: Macbook Air + Garagband.
- Interface: Steinberg ur22 mk2
- Mics: AT4040, Shure SM58.

My instincs tell me a different dynamic mic or acoustic treatment or for my room or Logic vs Garageband won't make a ton of difference, and that I'd have to spend serious money on a new mic pre to get a tiny sound improvement...Right? I might be underestiming post recording stuff, compression, eq, reverb, plugins,...? Or replace the AT4040 with something more high end?

Don't get me wrong, I'm getting decent results mixing both mics and adding some compressing and reverb in garageband, maybe I've just reached the limit of what a non-professionayl recorded guitar track can sound like on a budget...:/
 
Care to post some examples of the sounds you are getting and maybe what you're looking for it to sound like? Are you micing an amp/cab? What type of amp/cab? Are you 100% against amp sims/irs? I mean I don't see any "quick fix" answers based on what you've posted. Forget about fancy mic pre or acoustic treatment... that won't do much for guitar sounds... it's not like you're micing the room. I'm not familiar with the AT4040 and most guitars are mic'd with an SM57 not an SM58... you can get some decent 57 clones from Pyle or similar for cheap that you'd probably never know the difference unless you saw the logo...
 
Since you don't mention amps, I'm assuming you're referring to an acoustic guitar, in which case the guitar itself is a huge factor in the sound of the recording. The mic matters, but so does placement.

Back when I was recording a lot of acoustic players, I was using an AT4050. It's a good mic but it gave me real trouble with some instruments. I ended up getting an AKG C1000S, not because it was good but because it was different. It's a widely disliked mic, but it actually worked well on certain guitars that just didn't sound good through the 4050.

Another possibility to consider is using two mics on the guitar, the 4040 on the body and a small diaphragm on the neck.

Treatment might help some. A sample of what you've got going would help.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Since you don't mention amps, I'm assuming you're referring to an acoustic guitar, in which case the guitar itself is a huge factor in the sound of the recording. The mic matters, but so does placement.

Back when I was recording a lot of acoustic players, I was using an AT4050. It's a good mic but it gave me real trouble with some instruments. I ended up getting an AKG C1000S, not because it was good but because it was different. It's a widely disliked mic, but it actually worked well on certain guitars that just didn't sound good through the 4050.

Another possibility to consider is using two mics on the guitar, the 4040 on the body and a small diaphragm on the neck.

Treatment might help some. A sample of what you've got going would help.
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry, "guitar" always means electric to me, unless specifically mensioned otherwhise. I was stupidly assuming everyone automatically thinks the same way ;)

I do have an acoustic though, which sole purpase to me these days is to double track an electric guitar. I'm sure I didn't invent this technique, but I accidentally found out it's a great trick to give more articulation to a picking/lead track of an overdriven electric guitar. Haven't done this in ages though, thanks for bringing my attention to it. I'll try out those tips, cheers.
 
Ujn Hunter said:
Care to post some examples of the sounds you are getting and maybe what you're looking for it to sound like? Are you micing an amp/cab? What type of amp/cab? Are you 100% against amp sims/irs? I mean I don't see any "quick fix" answers based on what you've posted. Forget about fancy mic pre or acoustic treatment... that won't do much for guitar sounds... it's not like you're micing the room. I'm not familiar with the AT4040 and most guitars are mic'd with an SM57 not an SM58... you can get some decent 57 clones from Pyle or similar for cheap that you'd probably never know the difference unless you saw the logo...
Click to expand...

I'll record something tomorrow that'll immediately show you what my problem is. I guess the tricky part is that a lot of the riffs I'm trying to track are really gainy and dirty, which doesn't help with the muddy character of my recordings. But the clean stuff isn't where I want it to be either.

I don't know if you're familiar with the bands Russian Circles, and Town Portal? They're not too similar, but they're both instrumental guitar bands with a lot of dynamics in their tones and songs. I don't at all want the generic Marshall-ish overdrive, I'm not into classic rock or hardrock or modern metal.

I used to have an sm57, used it side by side with the 58 and don't notice any real difference. Lost the sm57 at a show somewhere, never bothered to replace it. Also have a Sennheiser e845, sounds similar enough to the Shure's.

My amp/cab: '70s Musicman HD130 and Marshall 1960BX, and I obviously have a bunch of dirt pedals. Sounds great in the room, though I'm not sure about the greenbacks in the cab. I might replace 'em with V30's or G12H30's.

I'm not 100% against sims/irs, I'm open to all suggestions. But so far I've been really underwhelmed with the free/demo versions of Guitar Rig 5 and Amplitube. Sounds absolutely dreadful for the type of sounds I'm after, and the hiss noise was almost worse than when I record with my loud vintage tube amp and a bunch of pedals in front of it.
Might be user error, or maybe there's other sim/IR options out there that sound better. It seems like a lot of people get great results using a reactive load between their cab and amp, hooked up to their daw with cabinet IR software. There's the Torpedo stuff, the dsm & humboldt simplifier, Suhr RL,...and even regular amp sims like the Stymon Iridium apparantly get a lot of good reviews.

It's a pricey gamble though to order something like that sight unseen/unheard. It might as well sounds less good than what I have now, I have no idea though. Which is why I don't like the idea of spending $500 on amp simulation if I already have a great tube amp and a couple of okay mics :/
 
Okay, well based off of that info... I will say that even though you are trying to track some dirty/gainy sounds... when recording... you need less gain than you think you do... especially if double tracking. So #1 would be to turn down the gain lower than you think you need it. Trust me. The other thing is mic position... I'm not an expert on micing cabs, but I know that the closer to the cone the brighter the sound... if you're recordings seem dark and muddy, maybe move the mic closer to the center of the cone? Micing a cab in itself is an artform and only you can move the mic around to try and get a decent sound... as for Amp Sims, if you are not against them... definitely look into these Freebies before spending any money:

Emissary 2.0​

www.stltones.com

Ignite Emissary Guitar Plugin | STL Tones

Free download. The all-new Emissary 2.0 Amp Module. Re-coded from the ground up. The NadIR Dual Cab IR Loader. Designed to be used as a cabinet simulator for guitar and bass with ZERO latency.
www.stltones.com www.stltones.com

It comes with Nad IR w/ some free impulse responses as well.

L12X SOLID STATE AMPLIFIER​

www.audiority.com

L12X - Solid State Amplifier Plugin - Audiority

L12X is an analog simulation inspired by the Marshall Lead 12 solid state amplifier of the late ‘80s. Available as VST, VST3, AU, AAX and CLAP plugins!
www.audiority.com www.audiority.com

Yes, it's based off of a little lead solid state practice amp... but you'd be surprised at the tones you can get out of it.

These two that I mentioned along with many more freebies of Guitar/Bass Amps/Pedals can be found here as well:
guitarandbassplugins.com

Great freeware ampsims and fx - Guitar & Bass Plugins

Using freeware is a good way to get started and try out the waters when starting to use amp sims. With plenty of good freeware available there's no need to invest big in buying software to start out and try playing with amp sims. Here are some suggestions on freeware that we here at Guitar
guitarandbassplugins.com guitarandbassplugins.com
 
Ujn Hunter said:
Okay, well based off of that info... I will say that even though you are trying to track some dirty/gainy sounds... when recording... you need less gain than you think you do... especially if double tracking. So #1 would be to turn down the gain lower than you think you need it. Trust me. The other thing is mic position... I'm not an expert on micing cabs, but I know that the closer to the cone the brighter the sound... if you're recordings seem dark and muddy, maybe move the mic closer to the center of the cone? Micing a cab in itself is an artform and only you can move the mic around to try and get a decent sound... as for Amp Sims, if you are not against them... definitely look into these Freebies before spending any money:

Emissary 2.0​

www.stltones.com

Ignite Emissary Guitar Plugin | STL Tones

Free download. The all-new Emissary 2.0 Amp Module. Re-coded from the ground up. The NadIR Dual Cab IR Loader. Designed to be used as a cabinet simulator for guitar and bass with ZERO latency.
www.stltones.com www.stltones.com

It comes with Nad IR w/ some free impulse responses as well.

L12X SOLID STATE AMPLIFIER​

www.audiority.com

L12X - Solid State Amplifier Plugin - Audiority

L12X is an analog simulation inspired by the Marshall Lead 12 solid state amplifier of the late ‘80s. Available as VST, VST3, AU, AAX and CLAP plugins!
www.audiority.com www.audiority.com

Yes, it's based off of a little lead solid state practice amp... but you'd be surprised at the tones you can get out of it.

These two that I mentioned along with many more freebies of Guitar/Bass Amps/Pedals can be found here as well:
guitarandbassplugins.com

Great freeware ampsims and fx - Guitar & Bass Plugins

Using freeware is a good way to get started and try out the waters when starting to use amp sims. With plenty of good freeware available there's no need to invest big in buying software to start out and try playing with amp sims. Here are some suggestions on freeware that we here at Guitar
guitarandbassplugins.com guitarandbassplugins.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for those amp sim suggestions, I'll definitely check em out!

I already tried different mic positions though. The center of the cone, up close, does give me the best results. It's still too muddy though. Not even sure what adjective describes it best, it's not really a matter of too much bass or too little treble/mids...I just can't get any sort of articulation, it never sounds 'direct' enough, if that makes any sense at all. And using less gain than I normally would is indeed something that really helps, already tried that.
 
I'd say try lifting the amp/cab up off the floor and move it away from walls toward the middle, but not dead center, of the room. Maybe try both mics and blend them. You could put one farther away than the other. If you do that, try blending them as is, or try sliding the track of the far one to offset the difference in distance.
 
So here's the thing, guitar tone kind of get's lost the higher the gain which is why the old standby for recording is to have lower gain preamp and drive the hell out of the speakers to get the sweet singing sustain without the fizz and a treble booster input if you have too much low end. That's pretty much the studio ideal for high gain style sound in and awesome sounding studio, but it can be done at home by changing a few things about your process. Also, it's helpful to listen to a production track and isolate the guitar with an eq and panning as often you will find that out of context of the mix the guitar sound you love actually sounds kinda crap.

Ok, so I'm going to give you several suggestions and I think if you experiment with them you will find a whole new world of tones opening up. You didn't mention which guitars you are using so I won't get too specific because a metal style guitar(Ibanez, etc) will take different treatment from a Les p with PAFs ,or a strat or tele with single coils , etc.

First suggestion, reduce the bass on your amp. It sounds great in the room but doesn't really translate when recording. The "scooped mids" sound that you hear on many recordings is often eq'd that way after the fact. It's a lot easier to get a great track if you are not hyping or choking the frequency spectrum that you are putting to tape, and do your eq'ing after the fact.

Second, the "lower the gain" suggestion can be great but it can be implemented in many ways that all sound different. If your using your head on half power and cranking the master volume then I would recommend pulling the treble down also since tube amps actually amplify the tone stack you just end up adding more harmonic distortion by cranking it up. Yes harmonic distortion from a tube can sound great buuuut, there is a point of diminishing returns where you are just loading up the frequency spectrum so much with multiple order harmonics that your sweet original tone gets lost. \

Third pushing a smaller amp can be a lot easier to control for getting that balance of harmonics to fundamental at a low enough volume that it hits a mic just right, but you can get a similar result with a big amp by manipulating how you drive the input. For instance: master at ~ 12 o'clock or a lower, then back off the volume on the guitar 25-30%. Slowly raise the input gain until you get a slight amount of break up. Crank up the guitar volume and listen to that overdrive sound. If it's too dirty then back the preamp gain down a bit and vice versa. Then record with the guitar volume lowered, and double it for rhythm guitar parts and roll up for leads. This allows all the strings to speak when playing rhythm tracks and get's rid of the extra noise that causes leads to end up muddy, hissy or fizzy.

Another way to go is to use a fuzz or distortion pedal with it's gain turned way down with the same sort of just breaking up vibe using the guitar turned down again. I have a bunch of different PI type fuzzes and overdrive and distortion pedals and use them with the clean channel of the tube amps and get some great tone.

Changing speakers can change tone also, try an eminance or a creamback.

Different mic's will change tones a bunch also. Inexpensive ribbons , SDC's etc.
 
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I've been really impressed with the tones that Bats Brew (Gonzo-x) has been getting with his Strymon Irridium. I think he's using it on most of the tunes of his Elemental Album.
It really depends on the type of sound you are going after, and how much hassle it is to get your sound in a home environment (how loud can you get, do you have all the equipment handy, etc). With the modelers, once you find the sound you want, you plug in, put on the headphones and hit record.
 
Gtoboy said:
So here's the thing, guitar tone kind of get's lost the higher the gain which is why the old standby for recording is to have lower gain preamp and drive the hell out of the speakers to get the sweet singing sustain without the fizz and a treble booster input if you have too much low end. That's pretty much the studio ideal for high gain style sound in and awesome sounding studio, but it can be done at home by changing a few things about your process. Also, it's helpful to listen to a production track and isolate the guitar with an eq and panning as often you will find that out of context of the mix the guitar sound you love actually sounds kinda crap.

Ok, so I'm going to give you several suggestions and I think if you experiment with them you will find a whole new world of tones opening up. You didn't mention which guitars you are using so I won't get too specific because a metal style guitar(Ibanez, etc) will take different treatment from a Les p with PAFs ,or a strat or tele with single coils , etc.

First suggestion, reduce the bass on your amp. It sounds great in the room but doesn't really translate when recording. The "scooped mids" sound that you hear on many recordings is often eq'd that way after the fact. It's a lot easier to get a great track if you are not hyping or choking the frequency spectrum that you are putting to tape, and do your eq'ing after the fact.

Second, the "lower the gain" suggestion can be great but it can be implemented in many ways that all sound different. If your using your head on half power and cranking the master volume then I would recommend pulling the treble down also since tube amps actually amplify the tone stack you just end up adding more harmonic distortion by cranking it up. Yes harmonic distortion from a tube can sound great buuuut, there is a point of diminishing returns where you are just loading up the frequency spectrum so much with multiple order harmonics that your sweet original tone gets lost. \

Third pushing a smaller amp can be a lot easier to control for getting that balance of harmonics to fundamental at a low enough volume that it hits a mic just right, but you can get a similar result with a big amp by manipulating how you drive the input. For instance: master at ~ 12 o'clock or a lower, then back off the volume on the guitar 25-30%. Slowly raise the input gain until you get a slight amount of break up. Crank up the guitar volume and listen to that overdrive sound. If it's too dirty then back the preamp gain down a bit and vice versa. Then record with the guitar volume lowered, and double it for rhythm guitar parts and roll up for leads. This allows all the strings to speak when playing rhythm tracks and get's rid of the extra noise that causes leads to end up muddy, hissy or fizzy.

Another way to go is to use a fuzz or distortion pedal with it's gain turned way down with the same sort of just breaking up vibe using the guitar turned down again. I have a bunch of different PI type fuzzes and overdrive and distortion pedals and use them with the clean channel of the tube amps and get some great tone.

Changing speakers can change tone also, try an eminance or a creamback.

Different mic's will change tones a bunch also. Inexpensive ribbons , SDC's etc.
Click to expand...
Thanks man, that's the kinda of stuff I was looking for. Most of it isn't new to me, but for some reason I seem to have forgotten a lot of the basics.
Eminence, creambacks, or similar: that's an easy upgrade that's high on my list, cause replacing the greenbacks shouldn't cost me a lo and it would give me a better live tone at jams/rehearsels/shows as well.

A particularly good suggestion for when I start tweaking my amp and pedals: what sounds best to my ears in the room, doesn't necessarily help me get the best sounding recorderd track. A less boomy tone, with more high mids and treble, might be easier to track with good results. That might make it easier to end up where I want I want to be, using some eq to fix whatever needs fixing.

I mainly play a Les Paul Special. For the stuff I'm playing I like it a lot more than my fenders, which tend to sound buzzy, twangy, noisy,...
I love the character and rattle and mojo of my tele and jazzmaster, but the Les Paul just feels like the right tool for this particular job.

I guess there's not a miracle of a miracle gear upgrade or hack or a short cut. Probably just the sum of a lot of small improvements, of which one would be my recording technique, eq'ing, mic placement, amp/pedal settings,...

Looks like my boss wants me to get some actual work done today, I doubt I'll be able to record anything :(
I'm dying to adance with this though, great sounding guitar tracks are kinda becoming to corner stone for writing new stuff at the moment. It's kinda about convincing myself and the rest of the band with the demos I record.

Thanks a lot all, I can't say I regret registering to this forum.
 
Track Rat said:
My new fav guitar mic, a Royer R10. I like it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip. I don't know if you're familiar with the AT4040, but I'm wondering what I'd have to spend to get noticeable improvements that don't exceed the limit of the rest of my chain. I mean, a $5000 might make a world of difference in the hands of a good producer in a high end studio, but maybe a $200 upgrade is wasted on my skills and consumer level equipment. The old "reduction of added value" issue and all that...
 
https://www.soundonsound.com/magazine/2007-08 Have a good read and listen to that. Possibly THE definitive article on gitamp recording?

I have lurked in this and other forums a long time now and this question is a very common one although not as common as a few years ago. Rise of the Simulators perhaps?

The advice to reduce gain, first pass distortion and level is often given and seems to be very valid. Do not forget that the Rock God's sound you might be trying to emulate is almost certainly not JUST guitar and amplifier!

The concept of a lower power amp, driven to buggery is, on the face of it a good one. Does not always work though. The OD sound produced by most guitar/amp/speaker* combinations is rarely much to do with the output stage, tho' peeps will still try to sell you expensive NOS and Cryo valves! Mostly snake oil IMO.

*speaker make a MASSIVE difference. not that many are "good" or "bad" just different and very subjective. In fact if you want to get a certain bod's sound and he uses a Jensen say, hiding to nothing with a Celestion V30!

Dave.
 
Fuzzaholic said:
Thanks for the tip. I don't know if you're familiar with the AT4040, but I'm wondering what I'd have to spend to get noticeable improvements that don't exceed the limit of the rest of my chain. I mean, a $5000 might make a world of difference in the hands of a good producer in a high end studio, but maybe a $200 upgrade is wasted on my skills and consumer level equipment. The old "reduction of added value" issue and all that...
Click to expand...
I have a 4050 and a 3035 and though they are good mics they aren't my first choice for guitar exactly because they are so uncolored. A 57 or 58 has a recognizable boost in the upper mids which is popular for guitar recording, however a decent quality budget ribbon will get you plenty of character and the same with many condensers like Okatava 219s and of course the 421's are pricey but well known for their darker sound. Royers are great though the larger the ribbon the better IMO or at least for my preferred sound, and they are more expensive at the top end of their range. Beyerdynamic is another popular choice for cab micingCheck the used market for any of these options.
 
There are folk on YouTube with wonderful guitars, excellent amps, and they're demoing the sonic changes of X brand strings over Y and the difference in tone from their tele when using through body strings instead of though the tailpiece strings - and their amp has a 57 on it.

In your recording space, what does the guitar/amp combination sound like? Good? If so, then a 57 is probably going to do a good job once you get the position and distance worked out. The preamp/interface is less critical because the thing is loud, and distances are small - so mic position is probably the most important thing to sort first. The 58 you have will be fine.
 
Also bear in mind that the way the amp sounds "in the room" has nothing to do with how it will sound recorded... you want to setup your mics and put on some headphones... and move the mic around until it sounds good "in your headphones" because that is what you're recording. It might sound like absolute trash "in the room" and that's OK. I know that a lot of people say "I just want my guitars to sound how they do in the room!" but that is never going to happen. Also when you speak of lack of articulation in your riffs... that to me sounds like too much gain... more gain makes it mushy so again... back it off even more than you already have... even if you've already backed it off more than you think you needed to. ;)
 
Thanks. I'm still not there, but I'm getting closer and closer.

I played a part with heavy riffs and looped it with my ehx 720. Recorded it while moving the mics around, and tweaking the eq controls of my amp. Did the same thing a couple more times, each time with lower gain settings. Lo and behold: the best results came from the parts where my amp sounded lousy in the room, and where I was using a ton less gain that I normally would. A couple observations:

- AT4040 dead center of the speaker, straight against the grill cloth.
- I may be the only person in the world who's not crazy about the 57/58 for guitar cabs, or maybe my 58 just doesn't like my particular amp & guitar. It's not awefull, but I like the AT4040 a lot more than the 58. There's good sounds to be found in combining the two though. I'm kinda curious about the Sennheiser 609. Doesn't cost a lot, and based on the clips I checked, it sounds less fizzy than a 57 on gainy guitars.
- I'm gonna have to learn to use the equaliser in garageband. Randomly messing with it showed me that it can be more effective than moving the mic half a quarter inch up or down.
- My amp -not unlike most tube amps- comes to life when the master volume is turned up a bit, and the preamp volume is turner WAY up. Everything tightens up, the flubbyness is gone, the notes bloom in a whole different way, the highs sparkle more, the preamp and my overdrive pedal don't fight each other anymore...
But at that point it's not only painfull on my ears, I'm also worried to piss off the whole neighbourhood. Not to mension the noise/hiss volumes get too loud to ignore or to hide in post.

I guess A 130watt head with a 4x12 isn't typically the best tool to record guitars at home in a rural area, go figure ;p
I don't have enough cash laying around for an iso box or a new small amp, but that's still a part of the equation I'll look into. I'm not a fan of attenuators, though I've never messed with any of those newer reactive load type of attenuators. There's a couple that also have a direct out and cab sim/ir. Again though, it's a pricey option I can't try out before I buy it...:/
 
I think your only option IF you want speaker recordings with the amp at full chat IS a Power Soak*? I WAS going to suggest you pull two OP valves to halve the power but looking at the MM schematic it uses a very complex op amp + transistor cathode drive and I would not cluck about with that. In any case, 65W+ is still 'king load!

There is also the fact that 130W into a decent speaker cab will deliver over 120dB SPL and if you listen to that for more than an hour a day for a week you will not be ABLE to tell good from bad recordings!

*Problem: most are rated at 100W max and many more than half that and I do not trust the ratings on some of the cheaper models.
You would really need a load rated at a genuine 150W to be safe(ish) and 200W better IMO. If you can solder, making a load box is not that hard or expensive.

Typo! "2kW"! Not unfeasable mind!
Dave.
 
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