Recording Acoustic-How do I get Tony Rice like sound?

[DumpTruck]

Tony Rice first recorded the Manzanita album in 1975. I sure the technology and equipment we can get our hands on for our home studios is far advanced than the equipment used to record Tony Rice thirty plus years ago --- However that album has some of the best acoustic guitar recording ever.

I could have Tony himself in my house playing his holy grail Martin and still not get that sound recorded. What am I doing wrong - other than not owning matched pairs of Neumann mics?

I have pair of Rode NT5's, a Rode NT1A, AKG Perception 200, Samson C01 and CO2, and several SM57s and SM58s. As an interface, I am using a Tascam FW-1082 into Garage Band. The guitar I am trying to record is a Martin HD-28 with D'Aquisto string most of the time and Red Bear or real tortise shell picks. The guitar sound great when played but I just cannot capture the "real" sound on the guitar when I record.

No matter which mic is used the sound is too bright at the 12th fret position and too boomy at the bridge position. Lots of pick noise close in and the guitar sounds thin when I move the mic away to get rid of the pick noise.

I've read several tutorials on mic selection and placement --- Does anyone have real world advice for getting the sound I hear on Tony's records?

How do I get closer to that sound using the tools I already have?

Any reasonably priced mic upgrades or preamps that will be significant improvement over what I already have to merit the expense?

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[Elton Bear]

I am using a Tascam FW-1082 into Garage Band.

It's a minor point but I would strongly suggest going with ProTools if you can afford it for a more 'analogue' sound, or at least upgrade Garageband to Reaper or similar.

What's your room like? Acoustic treatment is a big aspect on the recording sound...

 

[DumpTruck]

Garage Band is getting me back into home recording. Use to use Cakewalk Home Studio with a M-Audio Quattro. Will get new software latter...

My room, well let's see -- it sucks for recording. Wall to wall carpet, computer desk, computers, file cabinet, papers all over the place. I try to run my business out of here but my guitar keeps distracting me.

Recommend baffles or reflectors or both?

I've even thought about getting a solid bamboo area rug to get some wood tone in here.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I sure the technology and equipment we can get our hands on for our home studios is far advanced than the equipment used to record Tony Rice thirty plus years ago

At least that's exactly what Guitar Center and the manufacturer marketing departments would have you believe.

The fact is there's still a reason why a quality ribbon mic or Neumann-class condenser still costs a couple of thousand dollars while your Samson mics only cost a couple of hundred, and why a single Grace preamp costs four times as much as your entire 1082. This is especially true on acoustic instruments such as acoustic guitar.

I could have Tony himself in my house playing his holy grail Martin and still not get that sound recorded. What am I doing wrong

By that equation, recording in the wrong house, or at least room. More on that in a minute.

I'm not thrilled with your mic selection for use on acoustic guitar. The NT5s aren't bad, but nothing there is going to give you the kind of sound you're comparing against. I'm not being a gear snob here, it's just that you're trying to compete against a top-notch recording on top-notch gear by top-notch engineers in a top-notch room by a top-notch musician. The fact that that was in 1975 and this is now is actually quite irrelevant, believe it or not. There are some jazz recordings from the 50s and 60s that'll blow away most of what's produced today.

If the neck mic is too bright and the bridge mic is too boomy, try countering that by putting your brightest mic (NT5?) on the bridge, angled away from the sound hole, and a more balanced mic on the neck (57?). Record them together and blend them in GB to taste. Also, don't be afraid to play around with those mic positions; one to two inches in any direction can make a difference.

Sometimes one can get a better sound by moving the mic out of the guitar's nearfield (i.e. at least as far from the guitar as the length of the guitar from end-to-end.) This usually requires a pretty good-sounding room to pull off, though. It's impossible to tell from your description exactly what might or might not help your room, but it sounds like it's probably more on the dead side than the reflective side. At least, that's how I'd probably play it up: easier to deaden a room than to make it's reflections sound high quality. I wouldn't deaden it entirely, but enough to give you a malleable recording. Then apply a quality convolution reverb to it (e.g. the SIR plug-in with a quality Lexicon impulse model)with a warm hall or large plate setting to give it a rich reverb sound (not too much, now ).

But frankly, if you really want to compete with that '75 recording, a nice ribbon or condenser mic into a high quality preamp is really what's needed to really pit yourself over the top. Figure at least $1500 and probably more like $2K or more for the combo to *really* compete.

G.

 

[thajeremy]

It's a minor point but I would strongly suggest going with ProTools if you can afford it for a more 'analogue' sound, or at least upgrade Garageband to Reaper or similar.

please explain to me how the tracking software will effect the sound of his recording? you can record on windows sound recorder if you want to and it will sound just as good as recording it into protools....

 

[guitar zero]

If you're using Garage Band, make sure you have the latest emagic upgrade. It boosts the resolution to 24 bit and the sampling rate up to 48k (I think, if I remember correctly). The older versions are only 16 bit. You should be able to make very good recordings with that.

A very significant upgrade that makes perfect sense for you is an Apogee Duet. Excellent preamps and superior A/D conversion, plus it's made for macs only. There's a few for sale right now on ebay.

Finally, Southside Glen is absolutely correct. Change your mics around if you don't like the sound. Don't be afraid to try different combinations. And the room you record in is probably just as, if not more important than all of the above.

 

[Rokket]

If you can't make the room work, try the over-the-shoulder mic technique with a better mic and pre. If the mic is close to your ear, it should be picking up the sound your ears are and not getting too much of the strings in the equation.

And don't use an omni condensor for this.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "Tony Rice" sound?

/skulks away to Google Tony Rice.../

 

[Elton Bear]

please explain to me how the tracking software will effect the sound of his recording? you can record on windows sound recorder if you want to and it will sound just as good as recording it into protools....

I'm a little out of my depth here, and I'm certain that a few of the more experienced forum members posting in this topic will be able to clear it up, but I'm going on second-hand information.

All I know is that all the best engineers I know well and really respect use ProTools and get a much more 'analogue' sound, and all of them (talking about 3 locals here) have said that clients have a job to tell whether they've used Digital or Tape to record. A lot of this has to do with the way it's tracked, the mixing and the outboard gear as well, I know, but all these engineers have said they simply can't get the same sound using any other software.

 

[DumpTruck]

Everybody, thanks for the tips. I was afraid I was going to need way better mics.....and a room. Let's face it, my 50's plywood top Kay is never going to sound like my Martin and (as I open the can of worms) ! Billion amps in 1 box products will never sound like my '54 Fender tweed.

One thing I've learned over the years - music and life in general- is you can't take short cuts and expect great results. ... You know how it goes - you've two hours before your wife comes home to mow the grass, make a few calls and record your masterpiece "I'll show them SOB's who can play" CD because your next chance is five weeks from now when the project at work is done - but wait we have to travel to the in-laws 600 miles away that week-end. Patience.

Now if I could just find some of that magic wood Leo Fender and Mr. Gibson used so I can build my studio walls.....

White Strat, I hope you enjoy learning about Tony Rice's stunt guitar playing and his famed D-28 serial number 58957 once owned by Clarence White of Birds fame. By the way that guitar made a couple of appearances on The Andy Griffith Show -- along with 11 year old Clarence.

 

[RAMI]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "Tony Rice" sound?

/skulks away to Google Tony Rice.../

I don't know, but I think we're putting way too much importance on equipment and less on talent, room, talent, experience behind the board, talent, etc.....

I have a feeling that even if someone had all the exact same equipment as "Tony Rice", they'd still have as much chance of sounding like "Jerry Rice".

 

[DumpTruck]

I could have Tony himself in my house playing his holy grail Martin and still not get that sound recorded. What am I doing wrong -

Talent has a lot to with everything. That's why we ask questions to improve our knowledge, learn how to do it right, practice our new skills, and develop our talents.

It always seems that some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. RAMI, I'm in here to learn - not be insulted for allegedly not having talent.

 

[RAMI]

I'm in here to learn - not be insulted for allegedly not having talent.

Did I say YOU have no talent???

What I said is my opinion concerning the fact that I think this thread is putting too much importance on equipment. It had nothing to do with YOU, so go change your diapers and pick yourself up. You obviously have no self-esteem if it's that easy for you to turn what I said into an insult against you. Pretty sad.

I've never heard you play. What happened in your life to make you so insecure and paranoid???

 

[WhiteStrat]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "Tony Rice" sound?

/skulks away to Google Tony Rice.../

Okay, so I still don't know the Tony Rice sound you speak of, as I'm not familiar with the album you mentioned. But I did check out some clips on his own website as well as YouTube.

There just aren't enough hours in the day to listen to and learn from all the great players I've never even heard of.

But thanks for turning me on to him (Found Norman Blake while I was there, too.)

 

[guitar zero]

Okay, so I still don't know the Tony Rice sound you speak of, as I'm not familiar with the album you mentioned. But I did check out some clips on his own website as well as YouTube.

There just aren't enough hours in the day to listen to and learn from all the great players I've never even heard of.

But thanks for turning me on to him (Found Norman Blake while I was there, too.)

I always wanted to be able to flat pick like Tony Rice, ever since I was in college and he was playing with the David Grisman quintet. I know I'll never play like that. Most guitarists won't, but I think getting a recorded sound from your martin that is sonically as good (if not performed as well) is much more likely if you just get a decent preamp and some good mics, and mess around with mic placement. Oh, and keep practicing.

 

[NL5]

Let's face it, my 50's plywood top Kay is never going to sound like my Martin

The source is infinitely more important than mic's, pre's, converteres, etc.

I sure the technology and equipment we can get our hands on for our home studios is far advanced than the equipment used to record Tony Rice thirty plus years ago

Actually, no. Preamps and Mics are basically the same as they were then, and I seriously doubt it was tracked on crappy gear. Great gear of that era is still great gear. In some ways, it was probably better. Editing is really the biggest advantage to todays gear. Back then, you needed to know how to play, or have a studio musician come in after hours......

 

[DumpTruck]

Lots of good suggestions.

NL5, your right when I start thinking of recording gear the way I think of my playing gear. I've always prefered vintage over new. So using that theory, older recording equipment is/was not inferior to today's mass produced and shipped from China recording equipment. Quality is quality.

Looks, well sounds like the biggest problem is the room. I've taken my Martin from room to room and obviously it sound different in the bathroom than it does the bedroom. It sounds best in our dining room -- wood floors oak panels on the wall and a beat up 100 year old mahongany dining room table must reflecting well and the curtains must be providing just enough baffle to keep the natural reverb low.

I think I'll move the Mac and recording gear to the dinning room this weekend and play around with different mics and placement. My Wife should love that.......

......some day I'll have a house with enough space to accomodate all the "familly stuff" and "Daddy's quiet room" built lke a studio should be built and a couple nice mics to go with it. Santa Clause, Lottery Fairy, are you guys listening?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think I'll move the Mac and recording gear to the dinning room this weekend and play around with different mics and placement. My Wife should love that.......

Then she'll love my suggestion of you invading *two* rooms even more .

By that I mean you may want to have the Mac sitting in the next room with the cables running into the dining room just to eliminate the possibility of fan noise from the computer. At least consider that as an option if necessary.

G.

 

[Rokket]

Back then, you needed to know how to play, or have a studio musician come in after hours......

My mom said my dad used to be a midnight session man...

I used to think it was something dirty...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

My mom said my dad used to be a midnight session man...

I used to think it was something dirty...

Nah, you're thinking of a back door midnight session man .

G.