Normal to Have Low Input Level with SM57 and Scarlett 2i2? (acoustic guitar)

Eric Malone said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with your mic or interface. As rob aylestone mentioned, they are more common on snares, toms, guitar cabs etc, which is what I use them for.

I've been using a 57 lately, on a 4 x 12 Mesa cab, driven with a 50W Marshall 1987 knockoff, and it is freaking loud. I still have to bring the gain up to about 2:00 on the preamp.

I've just never recorded quiet (relatively) sound sources like an acoustic with an SM57 as I will usually choose a condenser.

Even with the gain pinned, if the noise isn't horrible, I wouldn't worry about it. I think you are operating within the parameters of your gear. I can verify if you like. I can plug an SM57 into a preamp with 65dB (API 512C) of gain, and record an acoustic. The knob should be at about 3:00 to 4:00 for a decent level (-6 to -3dB) is my prediction.

I wouldn't let room treatment steer you away from a condenser mic. Condenser mics are much more sensitive then dynamics, for sure, but they do capture quiet sources better. You can get a pretty good condenser for under a $100 these days (or $10,000, depending on your budget). At the end of the day though, it's what works best for you and the track. If the SM57 does the job, stick with it.

I'm not sure what your concerns are regarding compression.

Here's a video you might enjoy:



EL
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Thanks for your insights. Actually I bought the mic very recently and might have be misleaded but what I read on forums etc... I mean I probably can be right but for the kind of recording I wanna make (mostly quiet vocals and fingerpicking style, like travis picking, maybe some strumming, I'm more into producing folk or some light pop) maybe that's not the most ideal. And the Thomann policies allow you to get a refund until 30days after receiving it, I'm still in this window. So maybe I should send it back and get a condenser instead?

Yeah I mean Bon Iver , Sufjan Steven and Unknown Mortal Orchestra have all recorded their earlier album with some Sm57 or 58, but maybe that would be less anoying for me in my workflow to get a condenser mic instead. I'm not sure about the AT2020, I see it a lot.

Since I plan on layering a lot with som synths etc and putting the guitar a bit back in the mix, maybe the room will not be such an issue (I mean it's not super reflective, but there's the fans of my pc, some birds outside...).

But when I tried to edit the SM57 with compression etc, the noise became way too noticeable, and a noise gate is a bit annoying to set without getting some artifacts. Well not sure if it would be better actually with a condenser actually!
 
I'm not sure what your goal is with compression, but it could create some increase in background noise depending how you set the attack / release etc.

What is your goal with compression?

I wouldn't use a gate on an acoustic, ever. It's easy enough to edit areas where there is no playing with a DAW.

EL
 
Eric Malone said:
I'm not sure what your goal is with compression, but it could create some increase in background noise depending how you set the attack / release etc.

What is your goal with compression?

I wouldn't use a gate on an acoustic, ever. It's easy enough to edit areas where there is no playing with a DAW.

EL
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Yeah, I realised that using a gate was a bad idea once I experimented with it. Too much nuance for this and then weird artifacts.

Yeah not sure as well what my goal with compression. I'm still learning and experimenting, same with EQ. I know basically how to use them and the basic setting but I'm still not comfortable using them and knowing exactly what I'm going for. But anyway I always need to bring the guitar up with the sm57 to fit the rest of the mix, so mechanically this brings up the noise as well. Or maybe I'm not doing it right.
 
I think that loads of us started with one mic. I bought my first SM57 in the mid 70s, with the weird kitchen scouring pad windshield. I still have it because it did a great job. However, your second mic is often a condenser, so you can record the quieter, more delicate sounds. Dynamics, by design capture fine detail less. The physics of moving a large diaphragm with attached coil of wire dictate momentum and inertia will soften the rise time on transients, and increase the fall time. Condensers, even cheap ones, can do this better, but we break them, or make them distort with loud sounds.

What i do know is that i never put a dynamic on an acoustic guitar for all the reasons mentioned here. My cheap acoustic doesn't sound much different to the expensive one on a 57. Chalk and cheese on a condenser.

A 2020 is a really useful mic, the total opposite of the 57 in tone. Sensitive, bright and revealing. I’m not sure deaf, mellow and concealing is quite right, but close.
 
rob aylestone said:
What i do know is that i never put a dynamic on an acoustic guitar for all the reasons mentioned here
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I use both dynamics and condensers on acoustic guitars. I use the condenser more, but it really depends on what kind of sound I'm going for. A dynamic {usually an SM58 or a Superlux} is good for aggressive sounding strumming or picking and can sometimes produce great contrast with the more subtle condenser-miked guitars.
 
DiodeMcRoy said:
thanks, I think I'll try to stick to the 57 for a while, I plan to process it anway and I'm planning in adding layers etc... The annoying thing will be with compression since it brings the noise up. And my room is not really treated for a condenser, so i guess i'll have to face even more problems when compressing it...? But I'll think about it
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Okay. But I would worry first and foremost about your room, and not massaging the 57 with compression or whatever. Treat the room as best you can; there are plenty of websites that show you things that you can do to help with the room, because the room for recording and listening is by far the most important thing in the chain. Headphone technology has moved forward in an incredible manner, but still. If you're recording in a less than adequate room, you're going to struggle to get things right.
 
Shockmounts are essential when there is any likelihood of mechanical noise being applied to any mic. Mics designed for hand holding tends to have isolation built in. Small condensers rarely do, so on a solid concrete floor, there is unlikely to be much noise coming through the floor, up the stand, into the mic clip. Same on carpet, even on a suspended floor. The problems usually are accidental foot bumping, or being on things like steel deck.

Having some fit all suspensions is always a good idea, but often, ordinary mic clips are fine …… until they aren’t!
 
I would like to comment on some of the points and assumptions mentioned here?
First of all "-24dBFS" ish for a finger picked acoustic with a 57 even quite close and the 2i2 maxed out is just what I would expect. Neg 21 to 12 is pretty much where you want to be tracking any instrument? The bother is of course, with the mic so close you risk bumping it and tiny movements of the guitar can affect the sound.
So long as the AI's pre is quiet enough (e.g. my NI KA6) the fact that the gain is at max matters not.

"Why would Focusrite not make the pre amp suitable for such usage?" (I am paraphrasing) Because they can't! At least not AND make the interface at that price.

Mic pres are always a fight between enough gain and a good overload capacity (aka "headroom") It is just about impossible to optimize both with just one gain knob and even then the gain is cramped into the last few dgrs of rotation.
"Proper" pre amps have switched gains selection and usually a 'make up' stage that can add 10 or 20 dB to the signal but such designs are expensive.

However, mic pres on interfaces, even very budget ones, have improved a great deal in the last decade and most are really quite good enough for 'most' recording duties. Examples are the already mentioned KA6 (but another 6dB would be nice!) my MOTU M4 and even the lowly Behringer UMC series.

But, what does "gain 57dB" really mean on an AI? No, I am not sure either! A more useful figure IMHO would be the input voltage in mV (and dBV) needed for say -20dBFS. The output voltage of most mics is easily found and therefore a meaningful comparison made?

"Room not treated for a capacitor mic" Few ever are friend! It is the much greater sensitivity of the capacitor mic and the need to use it at distance that causes the room to 'intrude' but the clever disposition of a few duvets and blankets can tame those reflections. My son makes what we feel are very satisfactory recordings of classical guitar with a pair of Lewitte 040 SDCs. Before that he used Behringer C2s. Not at all bad given the price.

Why would you use compression when the signal is only PEAKING to -12?

If the sound of the SM57 is attractive to you look at the FetHead inline pre amp or a similar product.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
I would like to comment on some of the points and assumptions mentioned here?
First of all "-24dBFS" ish for a finger picked acoustic with a 57 even quite close and the 2i2 maxed out is just what I would expect. Neg 21 to 12 is pretty much where you want to be tracking any instrument? The bother is of course, with the mic so close you risk bumping it and tiny movements of the guitar can affect the sound.
So long as the AI's pre is quiet enough (e.g. my NI KA6) the fact that the gain is at max matters not.

"Why would Focusrite not make the pre amp suitable for such usage?" (I am paraphrasing) Because they can't! At least not AND make the interface at that price.

Mic pres are always a fight between enough gain and a good overload capacity (aka "headroom") It is just about impossible to optimize both with just one gain knob and even then the gain is cramped into the last few dgrs of rotation.
"Proper" pre amps have switched gains selection and usually a 'make up' stage that can add 10 or 20 dB to the signal but such designs are expensive.

However, mic pres on interfaces, even very budget ones, have improved a great deal in the last decade and most are really quite good enough for 'most' recording duties. Examples are the already mentioned KA6 (but another 6dB would be nice!) my MOTU M4 and even the lowly Behringer UMC series.

But, what does "gain 57dB" really mean on an AI? No, I am not sure either! A more useful figure IMHO would be the input voltage in mV (and dBV) needed for say -20dBFS. The output voltage of most mics is easily found and therefore a meaningful comparison made?

"Room not treated for a capacitor mic" Few ever are friend! It is the much greater sensitivity of the capacitor mic and the need to use it at distance that causes the room to 'intrude' but the clever disposition of a few duvets and blankets can tame those reflections. My son makes what we feel are very satisfactory recordings of classical guitar with a pair of Lewitte 040 SDCs. Before that he used Behringer C2s. Not at all bad given the price.

Why would you use compression when the signal is only PEAKING to -12?

If the sound of the SM57 is attractive to you look at the FetHead inline pre amp or a similar product.

Dave.
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Thanks for all this! Well I might come back to the SM57 but I'm just planning to order an AT2020 after all. Realised that for my usage, having to deal with the gain would annoy me more than all and I would not be making music with it. I send it back to thomann since it could get a refund and I have a small budget, I'll probably get a sm57 once i have a better usage or it or a good interface. But I don't plan on recording snares, loud voices or amps, so I realised that mic was not really for my usage (although some have done it before).

Also I wanna add that this community on this forum is really great and always takes time to write some great insightful comments. I'm more used to reddit (and this is nice) but this forum is really great!
 
DiodeMcRoy said:
Well if there's 56db needed and that's exactly what the focusrite provide, shouldn't it be ok? I maybe this mean that that the minimal needed to that's normal you have to put it to the max?

So in my case, this could mean my gear is not faulty and this would be the normal limitations of my stuff?
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The thing about recording is you get the best sound if you have greater 'headroom' which, in a nutshell, means you would have better results with ~60+ db of gain when you are trying to mic an acoustic source with a 57 from more than a few inches. Let's face it, my 57 usage is pretty much confined to directly in front of a amp speaker and 5" away from the center of snare drum. We are talking about no pad on 100 db sources through a 2i2 the input is at ~ 1-2 o'clock. With a 2i2 I only distance mic acoustic guitar with condenser mics. Though I have also used a ribbon in a pinch.
 
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