Pre amp gain vs tube screamer, recording guitar

  • Thread starter Thread starter delirium trigge
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Amplitube also has an input knob, it does the same thing as the input knob in PodFarm, which is about the same thing as turning up the gain on the interface which is about the same as adding a preamp or booster before the interface, which is about the same as a TS at low gain with the exception of the tone shaping that the TS gives. It makes the signal going into the amp sim's "preamp section" louder, and that's a period.

Which is "best"? I would suggest that adding gain one way or another ITB is going to be quieter and cleaner than trying to do it with any analog device and so from a purely technical standpoint, it is "better" as far as transparently raising the level. It is quite possible, though, that the little bit of extra noise and possible harmonic content changes will actually sound better. AFA whether flat gain or the bandpassed version that you get from the TS sounds better... Well, the TS thing seems to be SOP for most of the current metal dudes, but I don't think that anybody in this thread actually shoots for those sounds on a regular basis. So why don't you just plug the things in and decide for yourself?
 
Once again, read your manual. You don't know how sims work.

No one denied that a tube screamer shapes the sound. I'm/We're only saying it's not necessary to use one as a "boost" going into a sim because you can easily do that without one and have more transparency while doing it. Your preamp gain and/or sim input level takes care of that. All you need to feed it is a direct guitar signal. But you knew that, right? Sure you did. You do a lot of talking and obviously have not done much doing.

Again, what's your goal here? It appears to me that you just seek validation for your own misguided way of doing things.

If you had a valid question, did you not already get the answers you desperately wanted to hear from youtube? If we're all wrong and/or stupid, why are you still trying to convince us of anything?
 
Why are we putting this much effort into this thread?


Edit - miro, a standard TubeScreamer won't clip most interface inputs except (maybe) if the guitar itself already would. Course, if your guitar's that hot you probably don't need the extra gain...
 
delirium trigge said:
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID. But no, you get different results doing it by recording the DI signal with a tube screamer or turning your pre amp up on your interface. In that video, he is not using a tube screamer. He is using a Di through and then the saffire pro 40.

The ts in front of the interface for tone shaping yes, but it also increases the signal as it's a stronger output. I have said that over and over.
Click to expand...

Yes, you keep saying that over and over....BUT....the guy in the video isn't using a TS in front of the interface.
If he is NOT using a TS in front of the interface, and the signal is just basic DI/preamp "strength"....why do you keep going on about this need for a "stronger signal" in front of the interface, and that the TS is the way to go....???

Look....USE the TS.
No one is saying not to.....but your insistence that it's needed to make the signal stronger, otherwise Amplitube will sound like ass....just ain't so.
He's doing in the video EXACTLY what I am saying...he is boosting the DIGITAL signal pre-Amplitube. :)
The fact that he uses a TS plug, is secondary, and is for tone shaping.
IOW if all he wanted was a stronger signal pre-Amplitube....he could just raise the digital level of the track or Aux feed to Amplitube....he doesn't need a TS plug for that, nor a real TS in front of the interface.
A DI and preamp is MORE than enough to literally send the A/D into total CLIP mode....there's plenty of strong signal there.
Where are you seeing that it's not strong enough, and that you need to goose it even more with the TS pre-interface...?

Again....just talking about "signal strenght" here.....not any of the tone shaping you may desire from the TS.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Why are we putting this much effort into this thread?


Edit - miro, a standard TubeScreamer won't clip most interface inputs except (maybe) if the guitar itself already would. Course, if your guitar's that hot you probably don't need the extra gain...
Click to expand...


I don't know (to your question). :facepalm: :D

It all depends what he does with the interface preamp gain (to your comment).

See....he asked "TS VS preamp gain" and which do you prefer....BUT...you have to use the preamp of the interface anyway, so it's not either/or....it's preamp alone, or with the TS added. :)

I'm not disputing the use of the TS in front of the interface or as a plug. It will add flavor to the signal, and of course you can use it if you like what it does to the tone.
I'm not even really disputing his desire to do it all basically with sims rather than using a real amp.
It's this whole "signal strength" thing....and his perception of what it's about and where it needs to be applied.
 
I guess I was talking about the instrument input, and not adding even more gain after the TS. You could, for fuck sake, put a TS or preamp in front of the interface and then turn down the interface gain or the input on Amplitube and completely lose the the benefit of the extra gain going into the sim. I think that right there kind of makes the point that all that fucking matters is the actual level hitting Amplitube, but dude just doesn't seem to get it.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Why are we putting this much effort into this thread?
Click to expand...

I was actually trying to be helpful by discussing how a sim program actually works. How it "sees" the guitar signal. Maybe captain delusional the sim pro wannabe doesn't want the help, but someone else might stroll in here with a similar question and I'd hate for them to be steered into stupidity by his nonsense.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I guess I was talking about the instrument input, and not adding even more gain after the TS. You could, for fuck sake, put a TS or preamp in front of the interface and then turn down the interface gain or the input on Amplitube and completely lose the the benefit of the extra gain going into the sim. I think that right there kind of makes the point that all that fucking matters is the actual level hitting Amplitube, but dude just doesn't seem to get it.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. Exactly exactly exactly. He doesn't understand the basics of a signal chain.
 
I just did a quick test, since I actually try things instead of just watch youtube videos for all of my information. This not a definitive end-all-be-all test, but it's something.......

I plugged my Les Paul direct to an instrument input of my interface to see where my pickups hit the meters. Then I plugged that same Les Paul into my pedalboard, which includes a real live honest to goodness Tube Screamer TS-9. At the output of that TS-9 went a DI box. From that DI box, I went back to my interface and set the input gain to match where the guitar hit the meters when plugged direct. Inside of my DAW, I pulled up Guitar Rig 4. In Guitar Rig 4, I pulled up a JCM 800 with a virtual Tube Screamer in front and a Vintage 30 cab. Set the Guitar Rig input level to it's nominal setting. So everything is set just as Guitar Rig wants to see it.

So I did one clip with just the "amp" in Guitar Rig.
Amp settings - JCM 800
Master vol -7
Preamp gain - 7
All tone controls 5
Mesa Vintage 30 4x12 cab
Single SM57 center off axis


With everything else exactly the same, I kicked in the real Tube Screamer set as a "clean boost" - no dirt, max level, tone at 12:00


Now, again with everything exactly the same, I turned off the real Tube Screamer and engaged the sim's virtual Tube Screamer


And once again, with everything the same, I turned off the sim's Tube Screamer, made sure the real Tube Screamer was also off, and added 15db of input boost in Guitar Rig


As you can hear, none of these sound especially great, and none of these are modern "metal "tones, but you can hear the little bit of difference each method does. To my ears, none of them sound as good as the "amp" by itself.

My own personal conclusion, this is all much ado about nothing and definitely not worth the aggravation.
 
Oh, one more thing....look at where the "master volume" is set. 7. With a real JCM 800, that would be blowing your walls down and causing ear damage. I know this, because I've used actual JCM 800s. Is it a problem in the DAW? Nope. The output isn't even threatening to clip. Why? Because you can set the output to whatever you want it to be. Anyone that knows how to use a sim program knows this, except for.....:facepalm:
 
Greg_L said:
I just did a quick test, since I actually try things instead of just watch youtube videos for all of my information. This not a definitive end-all-be-all test, but it's something.......
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how much this proves, really, but I do applaud the effort. You missed the one where you add 15db of gain at the interface/preamp itself.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I'm not sure how much this proves, really, but I do applaud the effort. You missed the one where you add 15db of gain at the interface/preamp itself.
Click to expand...

Yup, just thought of that actually. I'll do that next. Probably tomorrow. I don't know how much headroom I have left though at the interface preamp. Probably not 15 db. Maybe.

It does prove that all of this is horseshit.
 
Out of curiosity, what pickups are in the LP? What interface did you use, and what levels did the bare guitar hit through the instrument input?
 
Interesting. Searching for "FirePod", I come up with the FP10, which has gain knobs that affect the instrument input. With it all the way down, it adds 8db. Is this what you're using, and where was that knob set?

Your samples do prove that higher levels going into the amp sim proper do, in fact, distort more. :)
 
ashcat_lt said:
Interesting. Searching for "FirePod", I come up with the FP10, which has gain knobs that affect the instrument input. With it all the way down, it adds 8db. Is this what you're using, and where was that knob set?
Click to expand...
The Firepod is the precursor to the FP10, but yeah, it's the same thing. With the guitar cable plugged in direct, it bypasses the internal preamp and with the pre's gain knob turned all the way down it's as direct as it can be with this set up. Direct instrument input. That's how I set it to see where the pickups tickle the meters. Then I matched that coming from the DI box. The actual numbers don't matter. Matching the input so Guitar Rig sees what the pickups give is what's important.

Your samples do prove that higher levels going into the amp sim proper do, in fact, distort more. :)
Click to expand...
That was never in question. My samples also prove that an outboard analog TS going into a sim is about as dumb as it gets when you can do the exact same thing, maybe even better, with more effect, with a virtual sim TS or just goosing the input level inside of the sim program.

Where an actual analog Tube Screamer really shines is with an actual blaring tube amp. Tube Screamers are great OD pedals. They don't have the same magic when pushing 1s and 0s.
 
Just out of curiosity I found a schematic of the Tube Screamer (TS-808).

The front end is pretty bog S, non-linear diode feedback around an op amp (they call it a "clipper" but it ain't) Then a filter stage. I am very pleased to see proper input and output buffer transistors . So, nothing magical in there but a good workmanlike pedal. I know they have a very loyal following. Their main claim to fame would, I suspect, be in slammg the front end valve in an amp? This is hardly possible straight out of a pickup.

I agree there is no point in driving an AI with one unless you keep the level well below the AI's High Z input clipping point (actually, since the TS has a low Z output you might get better results feeding it into a LINE input? Many AIs have rather poorer headroom on HZ input than line, the 2i2 being one such.) .But then, if you are just using the TS's OD quality there is a vast range of other pedals that can do the same thing. Some (cough!) will also give you a guitar speaker emulated out!

I agree Greg that a rip snortin' rig is the best way to get a good OD tone, but many of us cannot do that and in any case a very lucrative industry has grown up trying to put a Marsall stack in a matchbox...Can't be done of course but you CAN please most of the peaople most of the time!...A bit!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Their main claim to fame would, I suspect, be in slammg the front end valve in an amp? This is hardly possible straight out of a pickup.
Click to expand...
The HB in the middle of my main gigging guitar does pretty well, and if put it in series with the bridge pickup, things can start to meltdown. Those are kind of the extreme, though.

As we mentioned earlier in the thread, the active filter which lives in among that non-linear diodes feedback opamp circuit is pretty important for getting the harmonics that these kids want from their cranked Van Halen amplifiers. It hits the amp harder overall, but it shapes the tone in a way and/or a place that the amp's own tone controls can't. I guess.

I agree there is no point in driving an AI with one unless you keep the level well below the AI's High Z input clipping point (actually, since the TS has a low Z output you might get better results feeding it into a LINE input? Many AIs have rather poorer headroom on HZ input than line, the 2i2 being one such.)
Dave.
Click to expand...
I've been doing this for about a year now both live and in the studio. I have a DIY booster which I ended up modding until it became something very much like a modded TS. Plug that straight into even mic input on your interface and it's unity gain in with all kinds of headroom. That guitar above will clip any of the Instrument inputs I own. The booster pedal destroys them! There's plenty of headroom on the line ins. No impedance mismatch after the pedal. Works.

Except the amp sims all seem to "expect" about. 9-12db of gain between the pickup and the amp.
 
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