Overrated.....Underrated....

[Mick Doobie]

Santana...Tom Coster is to Carlos Santana as Jan Hammer is to Jeff Beck....Moonflower is imo a damn good album. Admittedly it is the only Santana album with which I have familiarity as an album. At roughly 14-15 years old, a bit off the beaten path when I bought it upon release(77-78?), then again around that period I also discovered Reggae before it came to consciousness at large. Moonflower, a partial live album, the transition from Carnival to Let the Children Play is among favorites of all time.

It may not be a popular opinion, and possibly could touch a tad on the overrated category, Stevie Ray Vaughan is/was a powerhouse, yet to an extent a one trick pony. 10 minutes in and you've pretty much heard all there was to offer. Not so with Carlos Santana. That Moonflower album, there are so many colors, so to speak. On some of the extended solos Carlos is on Blues mode, then a quick flourish of whoa, what the hell was that, a totally different mode, or color. I've played the album for my guitarist nephew as an example of adding color to guitar work. I'm not sure if he got it, or if the album was his cup of tea, but the idea is in his head which he may draw from, perhaps without even remembering, Santana. I've long wanted to do Dance Sister Dance in a band, so far unsuccessful, voted down.

Perhaps a bit "adult contemporary" and not really bluesy at all, Transcendance, I love the colors in the guitar work. Back in the day a go-to for shall we say intimacy with the opposite sex. I love the way it opens up around the 3:50 mark, optimistic, like the clouds opened up to a brand new day. Beautiful.

 

[famous beagle]

Santana...Tom Coster is to Carlos Santana as Jan Hammer is to Jeff Beck....Moonflower is imo a damn good album. Admittedly it is the only Santana album with which I have familiarity as an album. At roughly 14-15 years old, a bit off the beaten path when I bought it upon release(77-78?), then again around that period I also discovered Reggae before it came to consciousness at large. Moonflower, a partial live album, the transition from Carnival to Let the Children Play is among favorites of all time.

It may not be a popular opinion, and possibly could touch a tad on the overrated category, Stevie Ray Vaughan is/was a powerhouse, yet to an extent a one trick pony. 10 minutes in and you've pretty much heard all there was to offer. Not so with Carlos Santana. That Moonflower album, there are so many colors, so to speak. On some of the extended solos Carlos is on Blues mode, then a quick flourish of whoa, what the hell was that, a totally different mode, or color. I've played the album for my guitarist nephew as an example of adding color to guitar work. I'm not sure if he got it, or if the album was his cup of tea, but the idea is in his head which he may draw from, perhaps without even remembering, Santana. I've long wanted to do Dance Sister Dance in a band, so far unsuccessful, voted down.

Perhaps a bit "adult contemporary" and not really bluesy at all, Transcendance, I love the colors in the guitar work. Back in the day a go-to for shall we say intimacy with the opposite sex. I love the way it opens up around the 3:50 mark, optimistic, like the clouds opened up to a brand new day. Beautiful.

I'd never heard this before; thanks for sharing.
I can't say I really like it - although I do love the sounds and feel of the rhythm tracks - but I did hear him do a few things I hadn't heard before, which was refreshing. It still sounded very "aimlessly noodling" to me overall, with no real purpose or direction, but again ... different strokes!

 

[Smithers XKR]

Beagle, that's one I can't agree with. I have been listening to Santana since the hearing the first album. Evil Ways, Jingo, Soul Sacrifice. Abraxas was even better. Caravanserai, Welcome, Moonflower, Zebop, up thru Supernatural and Shaman, I've always enjoyed his playing, which has evolved greatly over the years. He's tried a lot of different styles, some more successfully that others, at least on the commercial front.

His tone is unique, and the expression that he puts into his playing is something that a lot of guitar players miss. I've never seen or heard him just "mail it in". That fact that he's worked with folks like John McLaughlin, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, and lots of other jazz and pop musicians shows that he's garnered the respect of his peers.

I love Carlos, I love his tone and his timing and his melodic phrasing. Ok the purists say that the early stuff was the best, but man that 1980 Marathon album kicked! Under promoted by the label.
I still have this on 45 and played it in a band through the 80's and 90's. People would come up and say "What was that rocky Journey track you played, its brilliant...never heard that before". I said... no its Santana 😇🥰🥰

 

[Mick Doobie]

Paul McCartney said: I'm not sure but I think it was one of the only Beatle records I never played on. I think we'd had a barney or something and I said "Oh fuck you !!" and they said "Well, we'll do it." I think George played bass.

You know over the years in watching Paul McCartney interviews I've come to the opinion that one must take what he says in those interviews, historically speaking, with a grain of salt. Can't say his motivation, I can speculate, but I think he can get a bit cutesy with the facts. Who knows, if I go back and listen to She Said She Said on a system where I can hear the bass more clearly it might change my mind. That one is actually in my top list of songs by the Beatles. Johns little word play repetition not just like but sort of like Please Please Me. Said said said, there seems to be a pattern here lately. I digress. Sonically, I dig it. Ringo does a fine job(or did Paul clandestin-ee track the drums while the other boys were napping?), the fills, the cymbal swells. "I know what it's like to be dead", trippy line, John was smart to nick it from Peter Fonda(?). If legend is to be believed a line that creeped John out during an acid trip and upon uttering it John invited him to get lost. Now if Paul said that he actually played the accompanying guitar on that track, the lead guitar if you will, in listening to it with that in mind I might say, well yes, of course he did. The tone sounds very much like that of the lead in Taxman, and if legend is to be believed Paul is said to have played.

 

[Mick Doobie]

To add to that....

Paul says, "I never played on"? Firstly, personally, I am not fond of the word "never". Overused, rarely applicable, the kind of word often used by those of the female persuasion in the heat of an argument. Loaded, useless rhetoric. Be that as it may. Paul's usage, seems a thin line to me. He may never have "played" on that song, but clearly he sang throughout, harmony.

In short, I think he's being full of shit.

 

[TAE]

It may not be a popular opinion, and possibly could touch a tad on the overrated category, Stevie Ray Vaughan is/was a powerhouse, yet to an extent a one trick pony. 10 minutes in and you've pretty much heard all there was to offer. Not so with Carlos Santana.

I agree wholeheartedly with that perspective.

Carlos was a never a zippy zoomy lightning fast player but the man ooozes with sweet sweet soul like no other. Certainly not a one trick pony.

One of my favorites to listen to is Samba Pa Ti

 

[TAE]

To add to that....

Paul says, "I never played on"? Firstly, personally, I am not fond of the word "never". Overused, rarely applicable, the kind of word often used by those of the female persuasion in the heat of an argument. Loaded, useless rhetoric. Be that as it may. Paul's usage, seems a thin line to me. He may never have "played" on that song, but clearly he sang throughout, harmony.

In short, I think he's being full of shit.

Never say never...never! Didn't would have been more appropriate.

Singing and playing are two completely different things

I think you may be over analyzing sir Paul. Memories are uniquely individual and become colored by how they best fit our view of ourselves and those around us. For sure I am guilty of it and was recently awakened to the fact by one of my younger brother as to when and where something happened. I had it remembered as happening in one house that we lived in when in actuality after being reminded by him of other factors I had the memory all screwed up. I hate when that happens....What me fallible? OH PLEASE!

Flat out lying to color his life the way he wants to have it viewed...probably not but anything is possible

 

[Mick Doobie]

I'll get off the Santana kick, but.....

For those who have never heard Black Magic Woman off of the Moonflower album, imo it is head and shoulders way above the original studio recording. For me the original is a bit bleh, boring, comparatively speaking it sounds as if the studio version was a mere demo for what came after, this one. The guitar work, it's originally a bluesy number, but some of the out of the blue other colors that surprise you off of this version, that's what I was talking about. Just a quick little phrase, then back to blue. Of course it seems apparent that he is using a wah pedal for tone adjustment.

I saw them live in a hall where normally you might see an orchestra, great acoustics.. The percussion was absolutely over the top awesome, Raul Rekow is a charismatic dude.

 

[TalismanRich]

I would put a couple of others out:

 

[Mick Doobie]

Europa, I used to like to play along with that one. Again, pardon, but that version sounds a bit on the white bread side, Moonflower album version has more feeling, more follow up phrasing. Flora D'Luna(Moonflower) was another I enjoyed playing along with.

Nuts and bolts time. Percussion. Probably not many's cup, but as I mentioned earlier the transition from Carnaval to Let the Children Play. Album, they're kind of linked, can't do that here. Tom Coster cooks on the keys in Carnaval, tastful. Opening guitar on LtCP, love it. Percussion!

Lol @ now, some of this stuff almost sounds like easy listening elevator music. Still love it, though.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Man, what a great (double) album. I'll quit after this one. Nobody is probably as of this point listening anyway. A bit artsy(badass) progressive instrumental number. Zulu.

 

[famous beagle]

I knew the Santana thing would be an unpopular opinion! 😁

 

[TalismanRich]

Mick, One thing that I have noticed is that live albums usually have much more excitement. When the players are wired in and cooking, and the tape is rolling, there's just nothing better. People get inspired and great things happen. I'm sure that's why you like Moonflower's versions better than the original studio cuts. Mixing live cuts in with the studio cuts might have been a stroke of genius. ... and yes, it's a great album.

 

[Mick Doobie]

I knew the Santana thing would be an unpopular opinion! 😁

Lol. Nah man, you're entitled to an opinion. I'm actually quite glad you brought it up. I'd forgotten how much I loved/love that Moonflower album.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Mick, One thing that I have noticed is that live albums usually have much more excitement. When the players are wired in and cooking, and the tape is rolling, there's just nothing better. People get inspired and great things happen. I'm sure that's why you like Moonflower's versions better than the original studio cuts. Mixing live cuts in with the studio cuts might have been a stroke of genius. ... and yes, it's a great album.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not trying to be difficult or too critical. The why's or therefors be damned, the studio version of Europa(which I honestly never knew existed or heard before you posted it), compared to the version off of the Moonflower album is like the difference between Pat Boone and, oh, I don't know, Otis Redding.

Sorry, I don't mean to come off as being an asshole. I love that album! Zulu off of that album, somewhere Jeff Beck is tapping Jan Hammer on the shoulder, winking, pointing, smiling.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Apparently, Santana Moonflower album, underrated. ymmv

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Admin, delete my account.

😋

 

[TalismanRich]

You are hereby deleted from the universe! 😜

A good thing about this thread, it made me go down to the basement and find my copy of Welcome, and throw it in the CD player this afternoon. The Moonflower album is in the box of disc that were water damaged, and I never got around to getting a CD replacement.

 

[DM60]

Admin, delete my account.

😋

That goes to another thread.

 

[Mick Doobie]

You are hereby deleted from the universe! 😜

A good thing about this thread, it made me go down to the basement and find my copy of Welcome, and throw it in the CD player this afternoon. The Moonflower album is in the box of disc that were water damaged, and I never got around to getting a CD replacement.

Of all the albums I have replaced with CDs(i no longer have a turntable), which comparatively speaking are few, that album that I will not mention on account of preserving whirled peas, is one of them. Jeff Beck Wired as well.

Another, another excellent example of a mixture of studio and live album. An album by that little ol' band from Texas, ZZ Top. Fandango!

Anyway!.....