Overrated.....Underrated....

Lets get one thing straight. I never said Bob Dylan was the first singer who couldn't sing.
"The bass player I was working with said Bob Dylan was the first singer who couldn't sing."
If you are going to quote me get it right.
Woah, horse ! 🐴
I wasn't saying that you said it. I was using part of your quote. I wasn't actually interested in who said it, I was interested in what was said. I merely used it as a jumping-off point to make a comment about Bob Dylan's vocals. It could've been said by Alfred Hitchcock or Nelson Mandela for all the difference it made. I like the quote.
 
Plus the "flats" were very small
They still are !
By American standards, European apartments were like closets
Many of them still are ! Ours is a closet that receives mail and gets charged for energy use !
That's not to slight George. To the contrary, it's actually a compliment
I agree. George did play bass on later Beatle songs, like he played on "She said she said" and John played on "Helter Skelter" and "The Long and Winding Road". But Paul brought a skill and nous to the bass that neither John nor George possessed in a way to influence the direction of the instrument on a wider scale.
I think that was more of what he was shooting for, the narrator of the lyrical content rather than just another pretty voice
As much as I love his voice, 'pretty' isn't a term I'd ever apply to it !
Bob Dylan was and still is a poet.
Armed with a guitar, Bob Dylan could sing/narrate his poetry
I read something akin to that just the other day. The person was saying that the music was merely a bed for Dylan's words to be perched on. I agree. Although there were a few musical innovations here and there, Dylan in his heyday wasn't musically radical like other artists. In fact, it's quite interesting how much of his music in the late 70s and 80s harked back to his 60s structures. Songs like "Man of Peace" and "Gonna change my way of thinking" and others were basically just re~writes of some of those "driving" songs of '65 like "From a Buick 6" and some of the ones from "Bringing it all back home." I actually find he did it on his albums then. "Queen Jane Approximately" strikes me as a better re~write of "Like a Rolling Stone" while "Subterranean Homesick Blues", "Maggie's Farm" and "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream" are basically the same song with slight variations and different lyrics. Yet they're all great songs.
Every songwriter is a poet
Even Gene Simmons ? 👺
 
They still are !

Many of them still are ! Ours is a closet that receives mail and gets charged for energy use !

I agree. George did play bass on later Beatle songs, like he played on "She said she said" and John played on "Helter Skelter" and "The Long and Winding Road". But Paul brought a skill and nous to the bass that neither John nor George possessed in a way to influence the direction of the instrument on a wider scale.

As much as I love his voice, 'pretty' isn't a term I'd ever apply to it !

I read something akin to that just the other day. The person was saying that the music was merely a bed for Dylan's words to be perched on. I agree. Although there were a few musical innovations here and there, Dylan in his heyday wasn't musically radical like other artists. In fact, it's quite interesting how much of his music in the late 70s and 80s harked back to his 60s structures. Songs like "Man of Peace" and "Gonna change my way of thinking" and others were basically just re~writes of some of those "driving" songs of '65 like "From a Buick 6" and some of the ones from "Bringing it all back home." I actually find he did it on his albums then. "Queen Jane Approximately" strikes me as a better re~write of "Like a Rolling Stone" while "Subterranean Homesick Blues", "Maggie's Farm" and "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream" are basically the same song with slight variations and different lyrics. Yet they're all great songs.

Even Gene Simmons ? 👺


Its poetry, but not as we know it Jim xxx 🥰
 
I can think of 7 words I'd use to describe the lyrics of that song ~ poetry ain't one of them !
Even as Jim knows it !! 👅
 
They still are !

Many of them still are ! Ours is a closet that receives mail and gets charged for energy use !

I agree. George did play bass on later Beatle songs, like he played on "She said she said" and John played on "Helter Skelter" and "The Long and Winding Road". But Paul brought a skill and nous to the bass that neither John nor George possessed in a way to influence the direction of the instrument on a wider scale.

As much as I love his voice, 'pretty' isn't a term I'd ever apply to it !

I read something akin to that just the other day. The person was saying that the music was merely a bed for Dylan's words to be perched on. I agree. Although there were a few musical innovations here and there, Dylan in his heyday wasn't musically radical like other artists. In fact, it's quite interesting how much of his music in the late 70s and 80s harked back to his 60s structures. Songs like "Man of Peace" and "Gonna change my way of thinking" and others were basically just re~writes of some of those "driving" songs of '65 like "From a Buick 6" and some of the ones from "Bringing it all back home." I actually find he did it on his albums then. "Queen Jane Approximately" strikes me as a better re~write of "Like a Rolling Stone" while "Subterranean Homesick Blues", "Maggie's Farm" and "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream" are basically the same song with slight variations and different lyrics. Yet they're all great songs.

Even Gene Simmons ? 👺
John was relegated to bass on Hey Jude, he didnt like it so played badly
 
John was relegated to bass on Hey Jude, he didnt like it so played badly
I think it was "The Long and Winding Road" according to Ian McDonald.
But the bass playing isn't bad on it at all.
I was joking
So was I.
So was Gene.
Dont dis Kiss they are icons, I know they were a bit naff, but people love them now
I dug Kiss in 1980 when I first heard them although I first heard of them in '79. I don't care what anyone says, they made some good heavy music.
 
I think it was "The Long and Winding Road" according to Ian McDonald.
But the bass playing isn't bad on it at all.

So was I.
So was Gene.

I dug Kiss in 1980 when I first heard them although I first heard of them in '79. I don't care what anyone says, they made some good heavy music.
Yeah that was the Abbey Road sessions Grim. I think John was insecure by that time and thought Paul was taking over the band. He should not have worried... Paul always thought of John as his big brother and mentaur
 
Woah, horse ! 🐴
I wasn't saying that you said it. I was using part of your quote. I wasn't actually interested in who said it, I was interested in what was said. I merely used it as a jumping-off point to make a comment about Bob Dylan's vocals. It could've been said by Alfred Hitchcock or Nelson Mandela for all the difference it made. I like the quote.
I am just funked up, pay no attention, but I kind of have to agree with him and it made me laugh. We were talking about autotune and people who can't sing.
 
As much as I love his voice, 'pretty' isn't a term I'd ever apply to it !

I never said that. If you're going to quote me at least get it right.

Of course I could be wrong and you could be right, but I have a hard time believing George played bass on She Said She Said. Sounds like Paul to me. Like I said, you could be wrong and I could be right. Kinda like that walrus bullshit, which was, bullshit.
 
No doubt that he'll always be remember by the women he tounged.
TMI, 60s, TMI !! 🥺
I never said that. If you're going to quote me at least get it right
There once was a lady from Hull......
Of course I could be wrong and you could be right, but I have a hard time believing George played bass on She Said She Said. Sounds like Paul to me. Like I said, you could be wrong and I could be right
Paul McCartney said: I'm not sure but I think it was one of the only Beatle records I never played on. I think we'd had a barney or something and I said "Oh fuck you !!" and they said "Well, we'll do it." I think George played bass.
 
Warning: Possibly unpopular opinion! 😉

My go-to overrated label is pretty much always Santana. I just don't get it. He plays some bluesy rock stuff that's ok, but it's nothing special in any way, shape, or form. I mean, I like a few things - the solo in "Black Magic Woman" is kind of nice.

I actually enjoy hearing him talk about music. He seems like a really deep, sensitive cat and a really nice person. Then I hear him play, and it's just so ... blah. He has that silly little repetitive triplet pull-off lick that he always does, and it always ends up sounding exactly like what it is: pointless noodling. Then he had that string of "solo albums" where he "collaborated" with a bunch of other singer/songwriters (Rob Thomas, Michelle Branch, etc.), on which he simply played a bunch of forgettable solos (IMHO) and barely did any of the writing on the hits.

But the guy is like revered as one of the all-time greats, which I just don't get at all. He's stared the stage with some huge heavyweights, like Miles FFS! How in THE hell? I'm sorry, but in no universe does he belong on stage with someone like that.

Anyway, clearly I'm missing something!
 
Beagle, that's one I can't agree with. I have been listening to Santana since the hearing the first album. Evil Ways, Jingo, Soul Sacrifice. Abraxas was even better. Caravanserai, Welcome, Moonflower, Zebop, up thru Supernatural and Shaman, I've always enjoyed his playing, which has evolved greatly over the years. He's tried a lot of different styles, some more successfully that others, at least on the commercial front.

His tone is unique, and the expression that he puts into his playing is something that a lot of guitar players miss. I've never seen or heard him just "mail it in". That fact that he's worked with folks like John McLaughlin, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, and lots of other jazz and pop musicians shows that he's garnered the respect of his peers.
 
Warning: Possibly unpopular opinion! 😉

My go-to overrated label is pretty much always Santana. I just don't get it. He plays some bluesy rock stuff that's ok, but it's nothing special in any way, shape, or form. I mean, I like a few things - the solo in "Black Magic Woman" is kind of nice.

I actually enjoy hearing him talk about music. He seems like a really deep, sensitive cat and a really nice person. Then I hear him play, and it's just so ... blah. He has that silly little repetitive triplet pull-off lick that he always does, and it always ends up sounding exactly like what it is: pointless noodling. Then he had that string of "solo albums" where he "collaborated" with a bunch of other singer/songwriters (Rob Thomas, Michelle Branch, etc.), on which he simply played a bunch of forgettable solos (IMHO) and barely did any of the writing on the hits.

But the guy is like revered as one of the all-time greats, which I just don't get at all. He's stared the stage with some huge heavyweights, like Miles FFS! How in THE hell? I'm sorry, but in no universe does he belong on stage with someone like that.

Anyway, clearly I'm missing something!
Early Santana was great.

Later Santana sucked. Just the same stupid signature riffs, played against some formula pop songs. Add in some current big name singer and poof! You have a hit on your hands. But without all the magic Carlos used to bring to the table.

I used to go see him and his band in the early days at the Cow Palace in San Fransico. Always a great show.

I had a girlfriend buy tickets for a show at the Hollywood bowl for my birthday ( mid nineties)
I was excited as I hadn’t seen him in a long time. That show went down in my history as one of the worst I’d seen. He played all the new crap, and not a single one of his earlier great tunes. Not even for the encore.
 
Nazz.
Not a revolutionary or particularly innovative band. But hugely underrated in my opinion.
I suspect because Todd Rundgren left after the 2nd album and went on to become so huge and in demand during the 70s, Nazz are rarely mentioned when people talk about bands from the 60s. But they knocked out some wonderful stuff in the few years they were together and were one of the few American bands to actually do some recording in London, even if that trip went wrong. They actually would also have been one of the few artists to put out a double album too, had the double album not been nixed and come out as two single albums.

In genres of music that aren't much talked about, there's just as much under and overrating as there is in the mainstream and underground. For example, in Christian rock, there are some artists or albums that are lionized to the hilt and having heard them, I've been left scratching my head as to why ! I remember a decade ago, there were two highly reputed albums on sale by a band called Selah, from the mid-70s, supposed lost psychedelic gems {Christian rock was often 7 or 8 years behind ! 😝}. I thought I'd give them a whirl.....and what a waste of money. I thought they might be akin to Liberation Suite, who were brilliant and from the same sort of period and instrumental line-up. But no. They were crap and I could only console myself with the reality that all of this comes down to opinions and I couldn't really blame anyone. I took a chance, the chance didn't come off. I didn't even bother to resell the albums. I either chucked them or swapped them.
At the same time, I've come across some great albums that didn't even make a dent in the record-pressing factory, let alone out in the market !
Opinions, opinions !
 
That fact that he's worked with folks like John McLaughlin, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, and lots of other jazz and pop musicians shows that he's garnered the respect of his peers.
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Clearly, they're hearing something I'm not hearing. I've seen live footage of him playing with many of those cats - guys that can seriously blow. And every time I hear him in those gigs, I'm thinking, "What??? Why???!!!"

Different strokes I guess!
 
Early Santana was great.

Later Santana sucked
My take on Santana is that they were one of those bands that got progressively...not worse, but not as good. Their debut is stunning, for what it is. Then Abraxas, though I love it, I find it a touch not as good. And each successive album or few albums is like that.
I actually enjoy hearing him talk about music
So do I. His thoughts and opinions are often better than his music !

I think what early Santana had that successive incarnations didn't and which he hasn't had much since he came to control the music he plays, is group interaction and group focus. The first incarnation was essentially a pretty innovative jam band operating in a very musically free period where all kinds of hitherto untried ideas {like wedding Latin congas and conga thinking to psychedelic rock} were fair game, but before they could get a recording contract, were told that they had to fashion songs from these jams and so they did that and struck a wonderful balance between the two. And every member of the band was instrumental in that evolution. They all brought something vital and unique.
Success and drugs played a large part in the destruction of that original Santana aggregation.
 
Santana...Tom Coster is to Carlos Santana as Jan Hammer is to Jeff Beck....Moonflower is imo a damn good album. Admittedly it is the only Santana album with which I have familiarity as an album. At roughly 14-15 years old, a bit off the beaten path when I bought it upon release(77-78?), then again around that period I also discovered Reggae before it came to consciousness at large. Moonflower, a partial live album, the transition from Carnival to Let the Children Play is among favorites of all time.

It may not be a popular opinion, and possibly could touch a tad on the overrated category, Stevie Ray Vaughan is/was a powerhouse, yet to an extent a one trick pony. 10 minutes in and you've pretty much heard all there was to offer. Not so with Carlos Santana. That Moonflower album, there are so many colors, so to speak. On some of the extended solos Carlos is on Blues mode, then a quick flourish of whoa, what the hell was that, a totally different mode, or color. I've played the album for my guitarist nephew as an example of adding color to guitar work. I'm not sure if he got it, or if the album was his cup of tea, but the idea is in his head which he may draw from, perhaps without even remembering, Santana. I've long wanted to do Dance Sister Dance in a band, so far unsuccessful, voted down.

Perhaps a bit "adult contemporary" and not really bluesy at all, Transcendance, I love the colors in the guitar work. Back in the day a go-to for shall we say intimacy with the opposite sex. I love the way it opens up around the 3:50 mark, optimistic, like the clouds opened up to a brand new day. Beautiful.

 
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