Output levels??

[DavidK]

In Sonar, there is a final?? output level, the output level of my interface ( M-audio Firewire solo). If my mix is how I want it but over 0 db, can I simply turn the fader down on that??

I was reading that there is some disagreement on this, I wish I had a link for what I read. Is there? Do I need to keep that fader at 0 and trim the other tracks down appropriately??

 

[legionserial]

I'm no expert, but if your mix is even coming near 0dbfs, let alone going over, it sounds like everything may be too loud. I may have my wires crossed though. That said, if it sounds good to you and turning the master fader down works, then why not?

 

[DavidK]

That said, if it sounds good to you and turning the master fader down works, then why not?

I dunno why not, thats why I am asking. I am looking for a technical reason not to do it, according to what I was reading there is but I didnt understand it.

I'm no expert, but if your mix is even coming near 0dbfs, let alone going over, it sounds like everything may be too loud.

Well, ultimately it will be mastered, so I would leave extra room. My stuff is complex with many tracks and very dynamic. Here's more info:

My last CD was mastered and I was rather disappointed. I didnt get to speak to the ME and basically had no input (label deal). I left the levels very low, assuming that they would be brought up appropriately ( like I asked in writing). They werent, the CD is much too soft. Therefore, I dont want that again, I want ( I think?) to make sure the levels are high enough to leave just a little room for mastering processes, but thats it. Does that make sense??

 

[scorpio01169]

when doing your mixdown...it is always best to watch your master output levels. leave your master fader at 0dbs, start with your kick drum, then the rest of the drums then bass guitar, remember bass frequencies have the most energy so they will push your levels harder so start with those keeping them tame, then bring up everything else, still keeping your eye on that M/F level. now you may have the tendency to want the mix louder so turn up your speakers not your output levels, but its best to mix at medium levels.

 

[Farview]

As long as the mix buss is 32 bit float (it probably is) you can just turn down the master on this mix and try again next time. It shouldn't make a difference.

 

[DavidK]

Thanks for replying Scorpio

leave your master fader at 0dbs, start with your kick drum, then the rest of the drums then bass guitar, remember bass frequencies have the most energy so they will push your levels harder so start with those keeping them tame, then bring up everything else,

1. I make complex orchestral music

2. I am pretty good at mixing it. I think

Mixing isnt a problem, I know orchestra stuff. Its more of a technical question. If the mix is to my liking but +3 over, can I simply turn down the master output? Certainly I can turn down every track, is there a specific reason why the master fader should remain at 0?

 

[DavidK]

As long as the mix buss is 32 bit float (it probably is) you can just turn down the master on this mix and try again next time. It shouldn't make a difference.

Thanks farview.

try again next time.

THIS is what I dont understand. "Try again next time" insinuates that there is something wrong. Should I have a goal to make all mixes fit under 0? If you can achieve the same result by simple turning down the master fader, what would be the point? I have to be missing something here, its just too damn easy to turn down the master fader?

 

[scorpio01169]

ok let me put it this way......the reason you leave your fader at 0, lets say you're going to an automated M/F ride at the end of a song, how much control on the the fader would you have if the fader is almost halfway down already because you mixed too hot and had to turn the M/F down..... it's best to get into the proper mixing practices instead of the "if it sounds good, then oh well" frame of mind. i'm sorry that i sound like a know it all....because i don't know it all. but what i do know or at least from what i was taught from audio engineering school is that you don't mix hot then turn your master fader down to make up for it. however that works for me...if other ways work for you then...."oh well". lol

 

[Farview]

THIS is what I dont understand. "Try again next time" insinuates that there is something wrong. Should I have a goal to make all mixes fit under 0? If you can achieve the same result by simple turning down the master fader, what would be the point? I have to be missing something here, its just too damn easy to turn down the master fader?

Unless you have 64+ tracks, there really isn't any reason for you to run out of headroom like that. So there is some sort of gain staging problem happening. Without looking at the session, I don't know what it is.
It could be:
1. Recording too hot
2. lots of high transient/short decay instruments not compressed (or poorly compressed)
3. you built the mix around an instrument that was too loud to begin with.
4. You mixed without paying attention to the levels, ie you turned up the guitar and realized that now you can't hear the keys, so you turn them up. Now the vocal is kind of buried, turn that up. I can't hear the bass, turn that up, etc....

With 32 bit floating point math, you have around 1500db of dynamic range, and somehow you ran out. Something is going on.

 

[scorpio01169]

So there is some sort of gain staging problem happening.
It could be:
3. you built the mix around an instrument that was too loud to begin with.
4. You mixed without paying attention to the levels, ie you turned up the guitar and realized that now you can't hear the keys, so you turn them up. Now the vocal is kind of buried, turn that up. I can't hear the bass, turn that up, etc....

With 32 bit floating point math, you have around 1500db of dynamic range, and somehow you ran out. Something is going on.

which is exactly what i was saying.

 

[DavidK]

Unless you have 64+ tracks,

I can do 64 tracks for Twinkle Twinkle. My stuff has lots of tracks.

I dont think I am explaining myself well, my bad. Lemme try again:


Other than "proper practices" or trusted methods, is there a technical reason for not turning down the master fader AS I HAVE READ IN ARTICLES? I understand being meticulous, classical musicians are by nature. Yes, I am by nature structured and analytical. However, what I am looking for is not a guideline to work habits, but rather a technical answer of whether turning down the master fader is somehow different than turning down individual tracks. It's more of an "I am curious" kinda question then saving my mix, I will ultimately rewrite the whole piece anyhoo.

 

[scorpio01169]

the reason you leave your fader at 0, lets say you're going to an automated M/F ride at the end of a song, how much control on the the fader would you have if the fader is almost halfway down already because you mixed too hot and had to turn the M/F down.

other than that reason, afaik, i don't know but why is the earth round i dont know i just know that it is.

 

[Farview]

It really depends on why your mixes exceed 0dbfs.

If everything is recorded too hot, you are losing clarity because you have pushed your preamps too hard.

If you are just getting out of hand with the fader volumes, this could affect any downstream plugins. It is possible to distort plugins, especially ones that are meant to emulate real equipment. Part of that emulation will be what happens when you hit it too hard.
Also, plugin compressors don't have thresholds that can be set above 0db. If it employs some sort of soft knee compression, you may not be able to get the threshold high enough to get the amount of reduction you want.

Without knowing why your mixes are exceding 0, no one can give you the specific reason why it's bad or not.

 

[Bulls Hit]

I'm no expert on this David, but I've always resisted pulling down the master fader when it clips, because I know the reason for the clip will almost always be due to a single snare/kick hit or vocal spike that sneaks through the compressor. If I turn down the master I'm reducing the volume of everything. So I'd rather go back to the particular track concerned and solve the root cause of the problem with a volume envelope or whatever

 

[Bulls Hit]

With 32 bit floating point math, you have around 1500db of dynamic range, and somehow you ran out. Something is going on.

Are you saying the meters won't hit the red zone until you exceed 1500db..??

 

[DavidK]

I know the reason for the clip will almost always be due to a single snare/kick hit or vocal spike that sneaks through the compressor.

Right now, I am only using synths or samples, so I dont use compression up front, only after the tracks are recorded. All acoustic stuff will be done in a studio properly.

Keep in mind that classical-ish stuff is VERY dynamic. AND, keep in mind that I know how to fix all this stuff. What I want to know is WHY. Lemme give a better example:

A deranged monkey escapes from the zoo, breaks into my house and messes with my music. Totally by 100% chance, the meters happen to be the best mix in the history of humanity, except the master level goes to +3. Do I turn down individual tracks or the master fader, and IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?


I know how to automate mixes, I know how to keep it under 0, I know to be meticulous, I know how to do it, really. What I want to know is WHY BOTHER? I am speaking on a philosophical plane here. I specifically read an article that says there is a debate about it. I dont know enough about it to know WHY it would be different.


I love you guys. Errr, as friends, strictly friends.

 

[gtrman_66]

A deranged monkey escapes from the zoo, breaks into my house and messes with my music. Totally by 100% chance, the meters happen to be the best mix in the history of humanity, except the master level goes to +3. Do I turn down individual tracks or the master fader, and IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?

If you really think that's the best mix in history, turn the master down and print it. You can always go back and try turning the channel faders down later once you've saved what you have.

 

[charger]

Here's a question... do you like the way it sounds when it's peaking at +3? Is that how "loud" you want it? If so, I suggest throwing a master limiter on there and making sure the final output never goes above -0.3 db. +3 just on peaks isn't even that aggressive, with a decent master lim you won't even hear that. And I have the perfect master limiter for you... Buz Maxi3... it's free... and does the job as well as anything I've heard...

 

[kubeek]

No, the question was: Is it better to take all the track faders by -3 OR take the master fader by -3? And why? (not talking about the effort to move 64+ faders)

 

[MessianicDreams]

No, the question was: Is it better to take all the track faders by -3 OR take the master fader by -3? And why? (not talking about the effort to move 64+ faders)

Thats how I understand the question. My answer would be: it doesn't make sense (in terms of gain staging) to have everything (or certain parts) running too hot pre-master fader, only to then turn down the volume of the master fader. You're bringing up the noise floor by boosting things too much before they hit the master fader..