Open to suggestion - New studio build

[Coleymusic]

Hi everyone, I'm in the process of drawing up plans for our new house build. The basement will be left for my use, since the kids will have their play area upstairs. I will have need some storage (5.5x13 - including electric and water heater), a small washroom (5.5 x 8 - sink, toilet, perhaps a standing shower), a sitting room (14 x 16 - small lounge) and the studio space. The basement is in an L shape (build around the foundation of our garage).

The way I see it, I should have about 26-27 feet in length, and about 13 to 15 feet wide for the studio space. My current format is one live room for everything (12x16), and one control room (10x10). It's worked well so far, but perhaps I could do something differently.

We'll be topping out our budget on the house, so I may not be able to do a "Paul Woodblock"-esque job on it. But any tip would be great on what I should do for the floors, walls, divisions (split the space differently?), materials... the contractor plans on finishing the basement, but that basically means gyproc 2inches off the cement foundations with insulation, floating wood floors, and one wall being put up. I might have to do any other divisions myself.

Looking forward to your input. What's the most important thing that I should make sure is done, what is essential? Where can I cut to reinvest elsewhere? What are the best divisions, etc...

Thanks,

JF

 

[jhbrandt]

The way I see it, I should have about 26-27 feet in length, and about 13 to 15 feet wide for the studio space. My current format is one live room for everything (12x16), and one control room (10x10). It's worked well so far, but perhaps I could do something differently.

JF, Exciting! New house and studio. Note: avoid dimensions with common denominators, ie; 12x16 - common 2 & 4. Have a look at my publications page, there you will find Excel room mode calculators and other articles to help.

We'll be topping out our budget on the house, so I may not be able to do a "Paul Woodblock"-esque job on it. But any tip would be great on what I should do for the floors, walls, divisions (split the space differently?), materials... the contractor plans on finishing the basement, but that basically means gyproc 2inches off the cement foundations with insulation, floating wood floors, and one wall being put up. I might have to do any other divisions myself.

You will need to consider your isolation requirements to/from the living quarters of the home. Do you record live drums? How high is the proposed finished ceiling?
You do not need a floated wood floor. This is a bad idea that keeps coming up all over the internet. You may need an IIC (Impact Isolation Class) floor... and/or something for thermal considerations, but you do not need to create a resonant drum-head platform.

What's the most important thing that I should make sure is done, what is essential?

Asking questions, like you are... and Find out how much isolation you need AND determine your room sizes based on room ratios that support good modal distribution.

Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

What's the most important thing that I should make sure is done

Assume nothing. Question everything...and most important of all.











with tongue in cheek

 

[Coleymusic]

Thanks John,
just to clarify, floating wood floor, here in Quebec, is what we call the cheaper laminate floors. They usually put some kind of barrier (like a foam mat of some kind), then they put these interlocking cardboard/pressed wood sheets of wood. It's not a riser! Yeah, I can see how that would create a MESS of sound problems. I didn't know about the room ratios and common denominators, thanks for enlightening me on that.

I guess it all comes out to I have shoestring budget. I want to make sure I invest my money in what makes the most sense, and what won't have to be redone. The kind of stuff where I can just upgrade something down the line, but not have to undo.

 

[jhbrandt]

JF,

Excellent. The laminate flooring with the IIC pad is very good. Can you post a drawing of the space? - And determine your current and proposed noise levels - IN and OUT.
Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

The basement will be left for my use, since the kids will have their play area upstairs.

Ok, all kidding aside. I see a few things that, if it were me, I'd focus on. Especially meeting code.

Since you will be building from the ground up, er...from a hole in the ground up.., this gives you an opportunity to pre plan and do things that most people with basement studios have to either modify, remove, alter, or live with. For instance..

Flanking paths ie..
Designing HVAC supply and return ducting/plenums/etc so they are not direct flanking
paths between Studio/CR and upper rooms. Also designing exposed ducting
pathways for inclusion in soffits if required, and or between ceiling joists
Locating HVAC units so they are not adjacent to your studio. Same with pipes, pumps, laundry room equip/plumbing etc. Anything that can structurally transmit vibrations via concrete slab/foundation/framing into/out of your studio.

1st floor flooring above studio may require resilient padding, more mass, etc to reduce foot traffic noise. Depending on type of music/volume etc, ay require pre installation of
1 or more layers of 5/8" drywall between and on ceiling joists to increase TL of upper floor membrane.

Pre planning on decoupling system for drywall/framing of Studio/CR partition walls and ceiling Especially at plate connections to ceiling joists...ie...decoupled sway brackets/Resiiant Channel/RSIC iso connectors-U channel /staggered stud partition framing etc.

Due to possible increased partition thickness/flooring-and non conventional doorstop offsets... Pre-design/plan/order NON standard door jamb design for seals/thresholds/latchsets/ and hinges. ie--standard wall partition thickness=stud depth+two layers drywall vs Studio partition design .ie Stud depth-which may or may not be staggered stud/or include depth of any iso hardware-2 or more layers drywall etc. (also may have to address fire-blocking issues with Staggered Stud implementation)

May even require decoupled slab in studio(for drums/amps etc) to reduce structural transmission from slab to foundation/footing walls to upper floor. Easier now than later.

Again, depending on monitoring levels/instrumentation/performance levels and span of upper floor between supporting assemblies- etc-added mass to upper floor framing may require larger normal nominal sized joist widths/closer spacing. Lot's to think about here. Think death via collapse. Hence warning above. Include all extra mass calc's when applying for permit and supplying detailed construction doc's to BID. Remember..hindsight=20/20 when building a real Studio in a home. Many TL technique/materials are NOT standard and may cause future headaches/postponement/cancellation/demolition if building inspectors find ANYTHING that hasn't been approved by your local BID at the outset of construction. Also consider financial risk to insurance cancellation should you build something without permits that result in injury, fire, etc down the road. Basements are habitable space, and are required to meet code regardless if it is a Studio or not...ie... BID doesn't care.

And this doesn't even address pre-planning treatment/absorption/diffuser/soffit design/construction issues relating to actual Studio acoustical design(design philosophy/implementation..ie.ceiling clouds/floor joist depth/proposed basement height, not to mention integration with HVAC plans(ie..ducting grills/separate Studio/CR supply-returns etc), door locations/egress/, CR layout....which reminds me..

and one control room (10x10)

A square room is a worst case scenario in regards to acoustics. Do some research and floor plan redesign.

JF..on second thought..in regards to designing a home studio at the planning stage of a complete Home build, it would behoove you to do some research on a few things prior to laying pencil to paper. In that regard, my best advice is to see Johns site, and buy this book.

Amazon.com: Home Recording Studio Build it Like the Pros (0082039530345): Rod Gervais: Books

It'll save you a ton of headaches, re inventing the wheel, and me/others a ton of writing.

Beyond that, we're here to help, but you really need to do your homework first.

Well, I'm outa time. But there are TONS of issues to deal with here. Better now than later.
fitZ

 

[Coleymusic]

Thanks John and Fitz

Yeah Fitz, I knew about the square shape problem, I was just giving some dimensions to give an idea of how wide the room could be.

But You have hit the nail on the head with what I need to do, which might not cost extra money, before starting. Although I think I would have noticed when I met with the electrician and plumbers, I had not thought about where to run ducts, pipes, etc... such a small change which could potentially do so much. I hadn't thought about putting things on the plan if they weren't going to get done at time of construction for avoiding future complications. These are the things I wouldn't have thought of either. I don't know how things work here in Canada, but I like to be safe!

I tried to look at John's excel document, but I have to say the whole modes thing is really confusing to me! John, maybe at some point I could email you for a "idiot proof" explanation!

I'm attaching the architect's first draft of the basement. I wrote over it in red to show the changes I was going to suggest. The long rectangle at the front is under the garage. It won't/can't be excavated.. The hot water heater will be moved under the stairs, and the electrical panel will most likely be up in the garage. Where it says studio, will be the live room, salle de controle would be the control room, rangement is storage, and the bathroom is on the far right. There is a little lounge/family room for use by the whole family.

Any suggestions about where to double up on gyproc, or use quiet roc or membranes, etc... are welcome. As well as any ideas about room placement and sizes. I can adjust sizes with extra sheets of gyproc or switching from 2x4 to 2x6 if needed...

Thanks again everyone, this is pretty cool.

JF

 

[jhbrandt]

JF,

I would be happy to explain to you here for the benefit of all. Please ask specific questions about the room mode calculator.

I have two recommendations/comments on your plans;
1.) All the doors are located in corners. This is not a good idea for symmetry in the CR or acoustics in any room.
2.) 8 to 9 feet wide is very narrow to start with for a control room. If you want have isolation higher than STC48, you will need to do staggered stud or double wall construction and that will take up much more space... so things get smaller and smaller. - I recommend that you extend the line from the bottom of the Studio de Musique straight across and move the toilet down into the Salle de Jeux. Make the CR mix position face the exterior window and have the entry to the Studio de Musique through/via the Control room. Center the door to the CR at the rear of the room. The arrangement room is not as critical.

Cheers,
John

 

[Coleymusic]

Thanks again John,
would you see this layout working better otherwise? I'm still waiting on the submission from the contractor, and this may dictate how much of the work I get to do in the basement. But he'll be setting up the plumbing for the washroom, so I at the very least need to know where that'll go so he can set it up. If you see the space, and can think of something better for the layout, let me know too. I asked for the lounge at the bottom of the stairs because I figured this made sense, and then I figure this kinda dictates where everything thing else goes... but perhaps I'm wrong?

In term of the calculator, I wasn't sure what to put where, but even more basic than this, I'm not sure what room modes are. I'm going to go ahead and try to save face by saying I'm from Quebec, so maybe I know the meaning, but in French. But to be honest, I'm pretty stupid about these things.

 

[Coleymusic]

Also, Fitz, what's HVAC and TL stand for?

 

[jhbrandt]

JF,

I can help you with this but not on the forum... (it's my job) All i can do here is give suggestions and recommend reading and research. I'm sure you understand.

By the way, you are definitely NOT stupid. You are asking questions. The correct word is probably ignorant. Ignorance is no crime. Ignorance is when you just don't know something. Stupid is when you know better and do it anyway.

Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

what's HVAC and TL stand for?

HVAC=Heating, Ventilation,Air Conditioning - refers to their relative systems. ie..electrical,plumbing,pipes,ducts,plenums,registers/grills/fans/etc.

TL=Transmission Loss -
.a value applied to a building assembly that rates it's performance in reducing the transmission of sound energy- ... refers to how much air propagating sound induced vibration energy is damped or loses during transfer from one space to another through building assemblies due to their mass, decoupling or distance. It is measured in db Loss PER FREQUENCY BAND. For studios, building assemblies are usually rated in TL @ x frequency, based on testing in labs. This is the only way one knows how well a given assembly will perform in the real world. Otherwise, you are simply guessing or trying to reinvent the wheel, which novices to studio building do all the time. Usually, the real point of interest is the transmission loss at LOW FREQUENCIES.


At some point you may come across "STC rating"(Sound Transmission Class). This rating is based on speech/noise frequencies transmission loss. NOT music.
STC Ratings

BTW, this is my simple definition. John's explanation is probably more succinct.

However, this subject is very complex and each building assembly must me viewed in the context of the WHOLE, due to flanking paths, weak link syndrome, frequencies of interest(ie -drums/bass), physics..etc etc. Suffice to say, there is much to be learned prior to designing one's space in regards to TL. But I hope this helped what TL refers to.

 

[chronicle]

Please ask specific questions about the room mode calculator.

Ok, I have one John.

Due to building envelope/home design and space use layout constraints/limitations, what importance does the calculator play in the actual layout dimensioning of rooms. It would appear that something such as...

I recommend that you extend the line from the bottom of the Studio de Musique straight across and move the toilet down into the Salle de Jeux.

would predict the modes of the spaces from the outset. And due to construction decisions, actual precision dimensions will ultimately predict what testing will confirm ..no? So what is the point of calculating modal response in the first place. In my experience from years of reading these type threads, I've often read expert advice like..."just make the room as big as possible" when referring to "calculating modes" to determine SMALL room ratios/dimensions. So, could you please give me your take on this seemingly contradicting subject. Thanks

 

[chronicle]

By the way, you are definitely NOT stupid.

I hope you weren't referring to my Warning sign John I in no means was inferring the thead's author was. Only to embark on a Studio BUILDING project while so was a lesson in hindsight..so to speak. Besides, it was only a joke.

 

[Coleymusic]

John, thanks for the already plentiful help. If I ever get some budget to put towards the studio, I'm sure it will make its way to you. I completely understand not being able to do more on this forum. Not to worry.

Thanks for the clarification about abbreviations Fitz. I was starting to pick up on them through all my reading. I'm guessing as well that TL has more to do with soundproofing a room with regards to other rooms in the house, rather than treating a live room say. I'm hoping I got that right.

I think John was saying I'm not stupid because I keep inferring that I am. I think John had it right with ignorance, and I can appreciate the difference. I call it stupid often because after ten or so years in the biz, and all the experience I've accumulated, you'd expect me to have studied up a bit more, and be more knowledgeable than I currently am. I'm lazy, and I can recognize this...

And I think I understand your question Fitz. I was kinda wondering the same. Once I know the vertical value of my room (say 7 feet-8 feet), does this mean I just pick up one of the pairings for room sizes for my space?

 

[chronicle]

I'm guessing as well that TL has more to do with soundproofing a room with regards to other rooms in the house, rather than treating a live room say. I'm hoping I got that right.

Yes, TL is all about "soundproofing". One thing you should know though. "Soundproof" is relative to what ever source SPL(sound pressure level) and frequency roll off you are trying to prevent from transmitting through whatever envelope. For example, you might strive to prevent a 60db/1khz source from transmitting through a given envelope and succeed, but the second you lower the frequency or increase the SPL, the envelope TL will fail. This is why really pro studios have an envelope designed with a TL
of 70-80db @100hz, and perhaps 50db@30hz..give or take. Some studios even go down as far as 10-12hz. But even then...place a Shuttle rocket 20 feet away...guess what..BIG FAIL!! That's why I say..."relative". In reality, the only place "soundproof" exists is in a vacuum...ie...outer space.

rather than treating a live room

Well, I believe there is a connection between TL and treatment.

First off, I never claimed to be an expert, but from what I've garnered, the more mass you introduce for better TL, the more you reflect LF back into the room...which then you need to deal with. One of the benefits of low mass residential construction is letting LF escape, and to some extent, LF absorption by virtue of membrane absorption via lightweight MAM partitions...ie..the drywall/sealed stud cavity/drywall act as membrane absorbers. However, I'm sure John may have a more enlightened view.

I call it stupid often because after ten or so years in the biz,

Hell, I've been chasing this stuff since 1984 and I STILL feel stupid sometimes. Listen, this is what this forum is about...HOME recording ENTHUSIASTS trying to set up a good space for enjoying their craft. No less, no more. If I had any advice to those who aspire and can afford to build a PRO studio, I'd suggest hiring someone like John from the outset. So, just know you are NOT alone here. We're ALL just trying to learn enough to make our little ole home studios work the best we can. PERIOD.

Once I know the vertical value of my room (say 7 feet-8 feet), does this mean I just pick up one of the pairings for room sizes for my space?

I don't understand what you mean by "pick up one of the pairings"? Maybe John does.


and btw,

so I may not be able to do a "Paul Woodblock"-esque job on it.

Who the heck would want to??? Personally, I read the whole thing and thought...


note to self...file under
WTF!!!

 

[chronicle]

Hi JF. Me again. Got a few questions. I was looking over your plan to offer some suggestions, but as usual, there are some things that arn't quite right.

First off...layouts like you posted leave a lot to be desired, when it comes to trying to help with ACTUAL dimensions. The thing is, I was going to do a quick layout in Sketchup. But right off the bat, I found something that doesn't add up. But to figure out the problem, I need some REAL dimensions. For instance...(btw,I hate architects plans like this because they NEVER tell you the REAL room dimensions..ie..are these dimensions from the concrete walls, or from the "dotted lines"..whatever they represent)


But let's take a closer look....the Studio de'musik dimensions are 10'4x12'7(124"x151")
And the CR dimensions are 8'8"x9'3 1/2"(104"x111 1/2")



And we see the Architect has specified a 30" door.

Ok, so I used those dimensions to do simple rectangles to represent the dim's.


But when I did...ummmm...WTF??? something doesn't add up. When you subtract the width of the CR(104"") from the Studio width(124")...well, I don't know about you but a 20" space for a door is rediculous.
....this is what I'm talking about.



Ok, listen, I was going to start a Sketchup to help you visualize everything that you want to do, ...but I HAVE to have REAL dim's to work from. So..if you can give me the dimensions shown in question marks above...I'll have a go at it. Otherwise I'll just keep my big mouth shut.

 

[Coleymusic]

Haha, yeah, she dozed off on that one. I gave her flack for it, because it caused me some problems. As far as I can tell, because I sat in on one session with her, she measures from inside the wall partitions. Now, does this take into considerations studs and gyproc, I don't know,... But I know that she drags diagonally from the inside of the wall. On the main floors, I'd assume the outside walls being larger than the inside walls is an indication that she does keep these things in consideration.

So the studio de musique has the old measurements from a previous draft. 12'7" is the short side. The room above it (mudroom/kitchen) is 13'4" in depth, 13'10" in length. Now, for the width of the basement in its entirety, the house is 40' wide. You sound like you might be from the UK, if so, in Canada, that's not that large. We have a lot of space... on the long side of the basement (not under the garage), outside walls run 32. So take off about about 2 feet in the basement (give or take an inch or two). So 38.

This is really cool of you, by the way. I played with sketchup and eventually quit. I get frustrated easily with technology. Either we work great together, or I take a loooooooong break.

So the three dimensions you've asked for, from left to right and down are 12'7", 38' and 18'11" (the outside right wall would be about 30').

Thanks again!

Oh, I'm assuming LF is low frequencies? When I wrote about the pairings, it was with regards to the second page on the excel spreadsheet on his website, to calculate room sizes for minimizing modes (if I understood it right). It had different pairings of width and depth depending on room height. So I was wondering if I am to pick one of these "ideal" pairs depending on the height of my room.

 

[jhbrandt]

..............Oh, I'm assuming LF is low frequencies? When I wrote about the pairings, it was with regards to the second page on the excel spreadsheet on his website, to calculate room sizes for minimizing modes (if I understood it right). It had different pairings of width and depth depending on room height. So I was wondering if I am to pick one of these "ideal" pairs depending on the height of my room.

Yes, LF = Low Frequency.

Calculate the room sizes for even distribution of modes. Not to minimize them.

The last tab on the spreadsheet shows optimum ratios. NOTE: Check dimensions based on these ratios... don't depend solely upon the ratio. Calculate and test.
Cheers,
John

 

[chronicle]

The last tab on the spreadsheet shows optimum ratios. NOTE: Check dimensions based on these ratios... don't depend solely upon the ratio. Calculate and test.

I would if I could. NO Excel. Excel Viewer is useless.
One note of interest. In the "IDEAL" room ratios' ALL of the rooms with a SEVEN ft. height are ..uhem..."unusable".

Haha, yeah, she dozed off on that one. I gave her flack for it, because it caused me some problems

Whew! At least I know it wasn't me. And btw...you're PAYING this person? Ummm, what university did she "graduate" from?

I sat in on one session with her, she measures from inside the wall partitions. Now, does this take into considerations studs and gyproc, I don't know,... But I know that she drags diagonally from the inside of the wall.

She uses CAD, and STILL got it wrong?? Was she talking on the phone at the same time or what? sheeeZus.

This is really cool of you, by the way.

I haven't done anything yet. But thanks anyway. However, give me a little time and some more info and I'd be happy to do some stuff in Sketchup. But I think I'd like to get the Modal calc's done. Unfortunately, I don't have Excel on my computer, so maybe someone else can help out with that. But here's the deal.

Given the maximum width of the area in question is 151"(12'7")..and I BELIEVE you said your planned height was 7', and given there are NO usable room ratios based on that height, you might wanna consider digging a little deeper to make a 8', or better yet..9' high basement.

Once you've made a decision on the height, we can go from there. So, I'll leave it at that for now. Your move.