cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
>>> BLOODY GOOD POINT, Tim (Beck)! 
Slowrider
STOP Voting!
Why can't they just make a super high quality RtoR instead of "Emulating" them? Besides, I don't trust shifty-eyed salesmen. 
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.Beck said:Nice story by the way... appreciated by this old Air Force brat/ham radio guy.
The only exception I would take to your reply is the following:
"THE HUMAN EAR, (AND I DARE SAY THE HUMAN SPIRIT) IS FAR MORE SENSETIVE TO COMPLEX MUSIC THAN ANY MEASURING APPARATUS WE CAN DEVISE."
If you added, at the end, "FOR A PRICE THAT WE CAN AFFORD" I'd agree! (Although, really you may be right and it just flat isn't possible.)
And as a matter of practicality, any digital hardware or software that could truly emulate, to the satisfaction of those blessed with sophisticated enough ears to actually hear it, an analog signal recording path, it would be so expensive that you may as well just go out and buy a roomful of analog equipment for all the money you'd spend.
B
BRDTS
Member
......."Why can't they just make a super high quality RtoR instead of "Emulating" them? ....."
Forgetting increasingly trashed, used Ebay machines for a moment, "They" DO make super high quality RtoR machines. You want a brand new analog 2-to-24 track? No problem. Go get one. You can place an order for one on the phone in the next hour and have it on your way via freight services today.
And who are "they" that have these machines? Well...
If you want a new 2-track, you can still buy one from Otari. If you want a higher wiz-bang 2 track..or higher track count, you can buy from several boutique companies like ATR. If you want a brand new Studer 24 track, you can still buy one as of today.
They're still around. Cost? New? From $3,000 up to about $15,000.
An absolute bargain for brand new analog machines.
It's a great time in recording-tools history. Take your pick between analog or digital, transistor or tubes. It's all available right now at the same time. All current stuff.
Forgetting increasingly trashed, used Ebay machines for a moment, "They" DO make super high quality RtoR machines. You want a brand new analog 2-to-24 track? No problem. Go get one. You can place an order for one on the phone in the next hour and have it on your way via freight services today.
And who are "they" that have these machines? Well...
If you want a new 2-track, you can still buy one from Otari. If you want a higher wiz-bang 2 track..or higher track count, you can buy from several boutique companies like ATR. If you want a brand new Studer 24 track, you can still buy one as of today.
They're still around. Cost? New? From $3,000 up to about $15,000.
An absolute bargain for brand new analog machines.
It's a great time in recording-tools history. Take your pick between analog or digital, transistor or tubes. It's all available right now at the same time. All current stuff.
B
Beck
Guest
Zaphod B said:And as a matter of practicality, any digital hardware or software that could truly emulate, to the satisfaction of those blessed with sophisticated enough ears to actually hear it, an analog signal recording path, it would be so expensive that you may as well just go out and buy a roomful of analog equipment for all the money you'd spend.
This is where it gets interesting. Everyone can hear it. It's just the plain old human ear, not the super human ear. Golden ears (so called) are just more aware of what is going on when listening to music in general. Just like any good mastering engineer can reach for the correct EQ setting blindfolded.
On the other extreme are music lovers that can’t even pick out the individual instruments while listening to a song. Yet even they will feel annoyed by digital artifacts. They just don’t know what it is… they can’t connect the music to the headache or just feeling “out of sorts.”
The audiophile or “Golden Ear” generally has the background to recognize things like ear fatigue due to harshness at certain frequencies, and can even tell you what frequency.
Of course there are varying degrees of sensitivity in the population. We know children have more delicate hearing than adults and females more than males. Some people aren’t that musical, and have less interest in sound. Yet there are a lot more music lovers than musicians, and consequently a lot more people that don’t understand how music and the way in which it’s delivered can affect them.
It’s the same with aesthetics… the color of a room, the height of a ceiling or the frequency of the lighting. Few people realize why they don’t like a certain place like the local Wal-Mart. Any environmental psychologist could tell them.
But as far as emulating tape… the whole thing is a farce anyway. Most importantly it’s based on some limited extreme qualities of tape. That is, rather than having the character of the real thing, it’s a caricature of the real thing.
Tape emulation is to real tape as Anna Nicole Smith is to Marilyn Monroe.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
You are correct, BRDTS.BRDTS said:
Now, a bit of simple logic here: the fact that such order still can be placed means that such orders still are being placed.
Now here's THE question for you:
Who are the people who can and DO place those orders. Who are they?
a. Some strange individuals who just lost their mind and simply don't know what to do with stack of containrs of cash blocking their "driveway".?
Or.?
b. Individuals who happen to know what's what in the "moment in time", aka great time in recording-tools history
? Those who we surrender to refer as "RESPECTED ones". 
?Who ever they are. I have no chance to have a clue. What I do know, however, is this:
1. People do things for a reason.
2. People who know 'what's what's' do things.
3. People who don't know 'what's what' pay the bill for those who do things. Ultimately and voluntarily so.
that's the way it goes. I don't think it can be changed and actually I am not sure if it needs to be changed. The reasons for why things are the way things are must be 'hidden' somewhere in the very core of 'nature of human society'. We can't change it, but I guess, we can chat about it.
Waste of time? - probably yes.
/respects
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
Great post, Beck.Beck said:This is where it gets interesting. Everyone can hear it. It's just the plain old human ear, not the super human ear. Golden ears (so called) are just more aware of what is going on when listening to music in general. Just like any good mastering engineer can reach for the correct EQ setting blindfolded........[excellent stuff snipped]........Tape emulation is to real tape as Anna Nicole Smith is to Marilyn Monroe.
B
Beck
Guest
blackdavy
of the plains
TapeOp
Beck, I'd say the TapeOp crowd is a little more intelligent than you make them out to be. Also, the readership is not just a bunch of kids. I'd say their readership is pretty dynamic in age.
Personally, I would never by this crap. But I also don't believe there's anything wrong with it. It's a "simulation" plugin. It even says it on their website. Simulation does not mean real... I think even a kid could understand that.
Beck, I'd say the TapeOp crowd is a little more intelligent than you make them out to be. Also, the readership is not just a bunch of kids. I'd say their readership is pretty dynamic in age.
Personally, I would never by this crap. But I also don't believe there's anything wrong with it. It's a "simulation" plugin. It even says it on their website. Simulation does not mean real... I think even a kid could understand that.
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
blackdavy said:
Oh 'cmon, it's well understood what their intention is. Digidesign sprinkles all sort of buzz words, including "emulation" and "simulation" throughout and then some, like "the warmth of analog tape recordings is coming soon", "warm up your digital sounds with unbelievable realism" and "will bring the richness and vintage sound of analog gear to your [whatever]".
Many consumers, save for a few, will take it just as the marketing geniuses over at digidesign had intended and predicted, that the plugins are infact a replacement for a real tape recorder.
blackdavy
of the plains
Maybe you're right. I never pay attention to anything marketing people say, plus the audio was horrible. I was referring to the text on their website. I went straight to the Digidesign.com. There wasn't anything like what you are saying there... but I think I've conditioned myself to ignore that kind of stuff, so maybe there was. : )
Still, If I were to use a delay in the digital realm, I'd rather use one that tried to closely simulate an analog delay. Doesn't mean it will be anything close to analog... because it will never be with so few bits... but it must be better than most of the digital delay effects out there. They sound horrible.
I wonder if the photography forum get this heated? I think it's still widely known that film is better than digital images, so they probably don't have to defend their medium as much.
Still, If I were to use a delay in the digital realm, I'd rather use one that tried to closely simulate an analog delay. Doesn't mean it will be anything close to analog... because it will never be with so few bits... but it must be better than most of the digital delay effects out there. They sound horrible.
I wonder if the photography forum get this heated? I think it's still widely known that film is better than digital images, so they probably don't have to defend their medium as much.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Good for them.blackdavy said:
***********
I don't know about them. I am a dummy one.
And so I read :
Soooooooooo, Baby?????. Hmmmmmmm....Digidesign said:
I'd say it's time for some "intelligent people" to come out with something like Toolz Shop™ plugin Pack which will bring the "uncompromising sound quality that meets the demands of even the most discerning ears" of all and any up to date best Digital Recording Systems (such as ProTools/HD) to my desktop with ease!
UNLEASH THE FULL POWER OF PLUG-INs!, that is
It should not be too hard to accomplish for an "intelligent ones". I don't mind not to having a "real system" as long as the output "sounds" just as good as 'real ones' and the price is good, plus I get them all in my drop-down menue (what more to ask for?)
I am a dummy one. So, I guess, I just have to wait and see.
******************
Here's a side note from the dummy:
"On the day when the last real thing will be relocated to virtuality there will be nothing left to simulate, except for the virtuality itself"
"Readership" that, my dear
/respects
blackdavy
of the plains
?
huh... first of all, you misrepresented my quote there and took it out of context.
Secondly, I think we're probably on the same side, but It's hard to tell. I really have no idea what you are saying.
huh... first of all, you misrepresented my quote there and took it out of context.
Secondly, I think we're probably on the same side, but It's hard to tell. I really have no idea what you are saying.
T
The Ghost of FM
Banned
And I thought I was the only one who found the Zee master confusing!
Cheers!
You too, huh?blackdavy said:
Cheers!
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
no I didn't. I did not "present" it , and thus I could not "misrepresent". I used itblackdavy said:
Yes I did.blackdavy said:
I can help with that. If you are a dummy one, then we are. If you an intelligent one, then we are not. It's easy, you seeblackdavy said:
*********
btw, I DO read through the 'context' carefully. So no worries there, I would not miss a thing
/respects
blackdavy
of the plains
ahh
ahh... I think I understood that
I'll just leave it by saying I do all of my serious recording in analog, but I like play around with computers sometimes. Not sure what that makes me... not sure I want to know.
Have a great evening!
ahh... I think I understood that
I'll just leave it by saying I do all of my serious recording in analog, but I like play around with computers sometimes. Not sure what that makes me... not sure I want to know.
Have a great evening!
B
Beck
Guest
blackdavy said:
Yes, the TapeOp crowd is somewhat diverse, as is this group, but I was there when it started and decades before in analog when analog was all there was. There is a large segment of the TapeOp community that embraces analog mythology as others do digital mythology. There has always been a certain “gee wiz” newbie feel to the whole effort.
You would have to be me or someone like me that has been recording most of their adult life to understand what I mean about TapeOp.
It was one of many groups that came out of the analog renaissance. I’ve read their publication since the beginning and participated on their forum as well. As for TapeOp itself… the leadership and direction, IMO they have betrayed their original purpose. A tape emulation plug-in is now big news over there. The publication has sold out to the industry. I’ve watched it transform over the years.
One big advantage we have here is we aren’t selling anything.
You are just plain mistaken about how Digidesign is marketing this analog plug-in and the older Analog Channel. They are clearly offering this as a replacement for tape. As a marketing strategy it is nothing short of “Tape in a bottle.” Of course an emulator or simulation is not the real thing by definition. Their only other option would be to become a distributor for RMGI. You won’t see anyone at Digidesign recommending tape. They believe and/or would have you believe that everything can be done ITB with the right software. This is exactly what they’re about. They don't believe, nor do they want you to believe they are selling toys.
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blackdavy
of the plains
I can see where you're coming from and can somewhat agree about TapeOp. Yes... they are trying to sell advertising, but I've never read an article in TapeOp where they praised a tape simulation plugin. I haven't read every issue and miss a few here and there. It's still a great magazine. There probably is some "gee whiz" material, but that's to be expected in any magazine. The interviews from all the older recording engineers and producers are the reason I read it (John Fry from Ardent Studios is in the current issue). Anyway... obviously, I have great respect for the magazine... but I was born in 1974 if that says anything.
Well... I watched the video and read the website again. All I see is that Digidesign is offering plugins that sound closer to analog characteristics than previous plugins. That marketing guy says that the tape simulator plugin doesn't sound like a compressor, like previous plugins did... or at least that's what I got from it. Also, he says the delay sounds closer to that of an analog tape delay and not as crappy as previous digital delay plugins. I don't hear or see anything that confirms that Digidesign is claiming these plugins to recreate analog quality. They're just plugins... plugins are not the internal processor. I think most users realize this. They're just putting characteristics to a wav file.
That being said... I do think Digidesign is evil They seem to own the digital recording market which is ridiculous, seeing as there are tons of other programs out there that are just as good or better (Ardour for Linux and Mac is free). The only piece of recording equipment I own that is computer related is a M-Audio Delta44 so's I can upload web audio content. I'd rather record on a Tascam 414mkii than use anything digital... and it would be cheaper. I just helped a friend find one brand new for $200. Much cheaper than buying a load of software.
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By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself. Thank you, thank you. Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day they'll take root. I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourselves. Seriously though, if you are, do. No really, there's no rationalization for what you do, and you are Satan's little helpers, OK? Kill yourselves, seriously. You're the ruiner of all things good. Seriously, no, this is not a joke. "There's gonna be a joke coming..." There's no fucking joke coming, you are Satan's spawn, filling the world with bile and garbage, you are fucked and you are fucking us, kill yourselves, it's the only way to save your fucking soul. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. - Bill Hicks
Well... I watched the video and read the website again. All I see is that Digidesign is offering plugins that sound closer to analog characteristics than previous plugins. That marketing guy says that the tape simulator plugin doesn't sound like a compressor, like previous plugins did... or at least that's what I got from it. Also, he says the delay sounds closer to that of an analog tape delay and not as crappy as previous digital delay plugins. I don't hear or see anything that confirms that Digidesign is claiming these plugins to recreate analog quality. They're just plugins... plugins are not the internal processor. I think most users realize this. They're just putting characteristics to a wav file.
That being said... I do think Digidesign is evil
They seem to own the digital recording market which is ridiculous, seeing as there are tons of other programs out there that are just as good or better (Ardour for Linux and Mac is free). The only piece of recording equipment I own that is computer related is a M-Audio Delta44 so's I can upload web audio content. I'd rather record on a Tascam 414mkii than use anything digital... and it would be cheaper. I just helped a friend find one brand new for $200. Much cheaper than buying a load of software.-------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself. Thank you, thank you. Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day they'll take root. I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourselves. Seriously though, if you are, do. No really, there's no rationalization for what you do, and you are Satan's little helpers, OK? Kill yourselves, seriously. You're the ruiner of all things good. Seriously, no, this is not a joke. "There's gonna be a joke coming..." There's no fucking joke coming, you are Satan's spawn, filling the world with bile and garbage, you are fucked and you are fucking us, kill yourselves, it's the only way to save your fucking soul. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. - Bill Hicks
