My image and input via suno

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I found this on YouTube and that’s an 18yr old me in the picture but I don’t recognise anything suno has done to it, however I wonder if I should add it to my performing rights account with a 25% share? I wonder if it would be possible to actually generate money? 46 years ago. It would have been nice for the drummer to actually have asked us?
 
It would have been nice for the drummer to actually have asked us?

If it is all AI generated music and vocals no royalties can be had...The lyrics ( whoever wrote them ) are the property of the composer...If suno actually duplicated the music arrangement whomever composed the music has a claim to that piece of the pie...Bottom line is unless some movie or TV show picks it up it is unlikely it will generate much $$$ but if by some crazy chance it did.. getting any $$ is related to the lyrics and the composition unless that is you actually playing and singing on it.
 
I'm sort of coming at it from the reverse - If what Suno does is an 'arrangement', then it's more like a cover song - which means the original composers have rights? Clearly I'm not stupid enough to actually spend money on this, but The original writers of music and lyrics do have rights as to saying no - and of course organisations such as Harry Fox will licence you to do a cover of a song. So replacing lyrics removes the original writer's ability to collect royalties, but often it's music AND lyrics assigned to two people, so they share the total. Composers take people to court for songs that steal their melodies and chord structures or even rhythms - so with Suno being so good at copying, before long somebody rich will hear a piece of music that is clearly an arrangement of their song and let the courts decide. Will it be Suno in court or the person that did it? This will happen at some point, just to set a precedent.

The trouble with my own example is that we never formalised our writing - we were young and having fun, but all 4 of us think we wrote the same things. I remember maybe a couple of tracks that I think I wrote, but they also credit me on songs I don't remember at all? It patently doesn't matter as the songs were pretty awful from memory, but it is just strange to hear a credit for a piece of new music of my old music I don't remember?
 
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Which person in the picture is you Rob?
 
I'm sort of coming at it from the reverse - If what Suno does is an 'arrangement', then it's more like a cover song - which means the original composers have rights? Clearly I'm not stupid enough to actually spend money on this, but The original writers of music and lyrics do have rights as to saying no - and of course organisations such as Harry Fox will licence you to do a cover of a song. So replacing lyrics removes the original writer's ability to collect royalties, but often it's music AND lyrics assigned to two people, so they share the total. Composers take people to court for songs that steal their melodies and chord structures or even rhythms - so with Suno being so good at copying, before long somebody rich will hear a piece of music that is clearly an arrangement of their song and let the courts decide. Will it be Suno in court or the person that did it? This will happen at some point, just to set a precedent.

The trouble with my own example is that we never formalised our writing - we were young and having fun, but all 4 of us think we wrote the same things. I remember maybe a couple of tracks that I think I wrote, but they also credit me on songs I don't remember at all? It patently doesn't matter as the songs were pretty awful from memory, but it is just strange to hear a credit for a piece of new music of my old music I don't remember?


"Suno" is not going to publish or "put it out there". If what your old band mate put out there is all AI there are no royalties to be had except for the lyrics...If it copies some of the original musical composition you may have some claim to some part of that... but it sounds like you are not even sure who did what on that song so it would be another cluster muck that said....with literally millions of AI songs being generated every day .( yes millions) and hundreds of thousands being uploaded and shared on music platforms every day. The odds of that particular song generating anything worth rubbing your hands and licking your chops about is nil. FWIW "IF" it for some reason it went viral it would be your old band mate you'd be taking to court not Suno...He was the one that uploaded to Suno and then published it.. Suno has no rights to the song

I asked the Gemini what the data is on this...

How many ai songs are being released each day worldwide and what is the percentage of increase expected to be in the coming years?

Gemini's response...

An estimated 75,000 to over 100,000 fully AI-generated songs are uploaded every single day to worldwide music platforms, and the broader generative AI music market is expected to grow at a Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 27.8% to 30.5% over the coming years. [1, 2, 3]

Daily Upload Volume
  • 75,000 songs daily on Deezer: The global streaming service Deezer reported that 44% of all its new daily uploads are fully AI-generated tracks. [1]
  • 33,000+ songs daily on Apple Music: Executives revealed that over one-third (33%) of all new daily tracks uploaded to Apple Music are synthetically generated. [1]
  • 7 million total daily creations: Beyond what is officially distributed to major streaming platforms, consumer creation tools like Suno log millions of user-generated tracks every single day. [1]

Market Growth Predictions
While the sheer volume of daily track uploads has exploded dramatically, market researchers measure the financial and structural growth of generative AI in music through compounding annual growth rates: [1, 2]
  • 30.5% Annual Growth (Generative AI Music Platforms): According to a Grand View Research Horizon report, the core global generative AI music market is projected to expand from $569.7 million to nearly $2.8 billion by 2030. [1]
  • 27.8% Annual Growth (Broad AI Music Ecosystem): A comprehensive market analysis by Market.us forecasts that the total AI music sector (including production tools, mastering, and streaming algorithms) will swell to $60.44 billion by 2034. [1]

The Disconnect: Uploads vs. Listening Time
Despite the massive influx of AI-generated content hitting server databases, actual listener engagement remains heavily human-centric. Both Deezer and industry analysts report that AI tracks account for less than 1% to 3% of total listening time. Furthermore, streaming platforms have actively deployed filter tools to flag and demonetize these tracks, identifying up to 85% of automated AI streams as fraudulent traffic. [1, 2, 3, 4]
 
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It's an interesting question but it looks like he hasn't credited you as a writer.
Maybe he asked those people?

Lyrics: Mike Murr
Music: Paul Johnson, Paul Boyce, Bob Money, Mike Murr
 
I found this on YouTube and that’s an 18yr old me in the picture but I don’t recognise anything suno has done to it, however I wonder if I should add it to my performing rights account with a 25% share? I wonder if it would be possible to actually generate money? 46 years ago. It would have been nice for the drummer to actually have asked us?


Interesting thread.
Why are you wondering about performing rights?
 
I'm sort of coming at it from the reverse - If what Suno does is an 'arrangement', then it's more like a cover song - which means the original composers have rights? Clearly I'm not stupid enough to actually spend money on this, but The original writers of music and lyrics do have rights as to saying no - and of course organisations such as Harry Fox will licence you to do a cover of a song. So replacing lyrics removes the original writer's ability to collect royalties, but often it's music AND lyrics assigned to two people, so they share the total. Composers take people to court for songs that steal their melodies and chord structures or even rhythms - so with Suno being so good at copying, before long somebody rich will hear a piece of music that is clearly an arrangement of their song and let the courts decide. Will it be Suno in court or the person that did it? This will happen at some point, just to set a precedent.

The trouble with my own example is that we never formalised our writing - we were young and having fun, but all 4 of us think we wrote the same things. I remember maybe a couple of tracks that I think I wrote, but they also credit me on songs I don't remember at all? It patently doesn't matter as the songs were pretty awful from memory, but it is just strange to hear a credit for a piece of new music of my old music I don't remember?

that brings up a point, if it was your copyrighted song, sound recording or words & music, why didn't SUNO have to go through Harry Fox?

I did a Harry Fox process once , only to see how it works. And it wasn't too expensive as I recall and seems memory is there is some money-limit before they get % cuts.
I forget details but it was a Buddy Holly song, and I did it "legally" via Harry Fox paper-online and of course I didn't even use the song, zero money made.
That's probably why most bar bands don't get charged and sued for cover versions as there's no money made to fight over. If your song was somehow a Big Hit $$$$ then the lawyers have you on the radar, I suppose. SUNO is who? if someone sued SUNO, say Harry Fox Agency sued SUNO ? or wait would it be the writers who have no money left to sue some billionaire SUNO corporation...anyway good luck with that.

its a getting to be a really weird world with AI.... the music SUNO makes is pretty impressive, but its hard to compliment a computer?
 
I suppose if most of us here did some Suno releases, we'd send it our tracks and it would do it's stuff, so it's still 'ours' - but when a talentless person gives it an elton john song, some lyrics and says in the style of - there is no musical talent involved at all, and that's where my personal line crosses. I'm trying to produce a track at the moment and it's based on a very old piece of classical music from the 1700s - A quartet. I can read the music. I can even play the notes, BUT I cannot play them at anywhere near the speed that is required. I'm not sure that even with hours of practice I could do it. So I'm left (in cubase) with step entry - which for this piece would be OK, with the randomness mods possible, or actually entering the notes - but there are so many, I'd be stuck on time. I've tried playing at quarter time, but speeded up it sounds silly. One of my regular clients - the conversation goes like this usually. Can you do XYZ, but for saxophones, not strings? If so how much? A quartet is cheaper than an orchestra because it is based on time. I sort of recognised the piece of music in my head so for just four tracks, I picked a figure. Now I'm discovering it's way, way wrong. I'm temped to try Suno or similar. I have the piece played on strings - I wonder if Suno could simply turn it into saxophones? I don't know enough about it's capabilities. My get out of jail free option for this stuff is to give it to a concert pianist friend who could probably play it error free on the piano for me and give me the midi file to just tweak? If AI could help me on this kind of project, I would welcome it - yet I moan about it for other stuff! Weird.
 
If it is all AI generated music and vocals no royalties can be had...The lyrics ( whoever wrote them ) are the property of the composer...If suno actually duplicated the music arrangement whomever composed the music has a claim to that piece of the pie...Bottom line is unless some movie or TV show picks it up it is unlikely it will generate much $$$ but if by some crazy chance it did.. getting any $$ is related to the lyrics and the composition unless that is you actually playing and singing on it.
It works differently in the UK, at least in terms of how royalties are collected.
There's no distinction between who wrote what.
Every contributing writer is noted with a %, usually agreed by the band in advance.

Queen famously went 25 each way on everything, no matter what.

With PRS we're registering that written work - Not recordings, interpretations, covers or versions - Just one master work.
There will be one entry for "Hallelujah" no matter how many people covered it or re-recorded it.

A cover recording's unique ID, if assigned by a distributer, gets 'linked' to the original PRS entry so the writers of the original work get their money.

PRS has a complex system which aims to do this,
and there are ways to notify them if you believe a cover hasn't been matched successfully, or doesn't have its own unique code.
That can get messy, but it's possible.




With PPL it's different. You're registering recordings of a work.
No one there cares who wrote it - They want to know who played what on every published recording.

Harry Fox is another separate branch - That's a mechanical license covering physical duplication of works which you did not write.
Whether the original work (compilations) or a cover, you'd need a mechanical license to cover the 1000 CDs you want to make, or whatever.



In the case of the first post, if Rob is a contributing writer then the song should already be registered with PRS and his name should be there.
At most he'd want to notify PRS of the existence of an IDless cover version at the following URLs.

If the Suno work is documented as a cover and/or is clearly based on the original then it's a cover.
Questions about what Suno did/didn't do, does/doesn't own become irrelevant.

There is a line *somewhere* where it becomes derivative work rather than a cover;
maybe a case where the music is entirely unrecognisable and only snippets of lyrics are used.
In cases like that the right thing is for the creator of this new recording to approach the authors of the source song and reach a % credit deal,
but I doubt that comes in to the play here if the lyrics are, for the most part, clearly recognisable.

If the writing split for the original work was not registered in the past then I'd be slightly concerned about coming along and claiming a share now,
firstly because it's unclear what % you should be claiming without agreement from the other writers,
(although there may be a default approach I'm not aware of)
and secondly because the person publishing this doesn't seem to think you were a writer at all, based on his video description/credits.

It's complicated but, perhaps, not in the way you'd expect.
 
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It works differently in the UK, at least in terms of how royalties are collected.
There's no distinction between who wrote what.
Every contributing writer is noted with a %, usually agreed by the band in advance.

Queen famously went 25 each way on everything, no matter what.
In Rob's case I don't think he is thinking there is any money there to get...just annoyed that the old band mate didn't give him a heads up which is a fair thing to feel.

That said...
What I have learned is there are different royalties to be collected when an audio recording is put out on the market for sale. This goes 100+ years back and has evolved. Yes different laws for different countries. What most young bands and musicians give away freely is more than 50% of potential earnings by handing over all publishing rights to the record company...It made sense pre internet and streaming nowadays it is possible to skip that and be your own publisher...

So here's the deal on the publishing side of it... as per Gemini

In the music industry, every musical work is split down the middle into two distinct royalty streams, and by focusing almost entirely on the performance/writing side, that conversation completely ignored the business entity side of a song:

1781703012601.webp


When independent artists act as their own publisher (often called "self-publishing"), they own both halves and are entitled to 100% of the composition's performance royalties. By ignoring the publishing side, the BBS conversation completely cuts the potential performance income in half.

Here is why leaving out publishing completely breaks down their logic, especially when it comes to AI-generated platforms like Suno and traditional collection agencies:

1. The 50% Black Hole with PRS/PROs​

Performance Rights Organizations (like PRS in the UK, or ASCAP and BMI in the US) split performance royalties 50/50 by default:

  • The Writer's Share (50%) is paid directly to the individual songwriter and legally cannot be assigned to a publisher.
  • The Publisher's Share (50%) is paid out to the registered publishing entity.
If a songwriter does not set up a publishing entity or register as a self-publisher, that other 50% often sits in what the industry calls "black box" royalties. Eventually, if left unclaimed, that money is distributed back to the top-earning publishers in the system, leaving the independent creator empty-handed.

2. Synchronization Rights (The Real Money)​

Synchronization (sync) licensing—getting a song placed in TV, film, or video games—is exactly where publishing rights matter most.
A sync license requires two clear clearances:
  1. The Master License (the specific sound recording).
  2. The Publishing License (the underlying composition and lyrics).

3. Mechanical Publishing Income​

Beyond performance, publishing rights govern mechanical royalties (money generated when a song is streamed, downloaded, or physically manufactured). When a cover song or an original track is streamed on Spotify or Apple Music, a mechanical royalty is generated for the composition.

In the modern digital streaming landscape, these mechanicals are collected by entities like the Mechanical Licensing Collective (MLC) in the US or PRS/MCPS in the UK. If you only look at the writer's performance side, you lose access to the entire mechanical publishing pipeline.

The AI Complication​

This is exactly why platforms like Suno can create a legal minefield. If a user inputs your lyrics into an AI generator on a free account, the platform's terms may claim ownership of the output. If that track is then distributed, who owns the publishing rights to the combined work? Even if you legally retain your lyrics' copyright, the publishing of the resulting track becomes an absolute mess to clear.

When you're dealing with digital distribution and legacy planning, ensuring you have a dedicated publishing administrator or a self-published entity registered is the only way to lock down that missing 50%.
 
The AI Complication
This is exactly why platforms like Suno can create a legal minefield. If a user inputs your lyrics into an AI generator on a free account, the platform's terms may claim ownership of the output. If that track is then distributed, who owns the publishing rights to the combined work? Even if you legally retain your lyrics' copyright, the publishing of the resulting track becomes an absolute mess to clear.

lol. You asked AI and it introduced an irrelevant level of complexity. Shocker.
Publishing arrangements don't really factor here - If anyone's recording of your song earns a (writers) royalty payout, you get paid according to the split,
as does your publisher if you have one.
It's akin to saying "ah, but what if there's six writers!?"
It doesn't matter. They get their split.


With this AI thing, the output is either a cover, a derivative work, or something new.
Whoever puts it out in to the world needs to know which and take the correct action.

In this case it's a cover but in the case of something new?...that's the complicated one.
Who wrote this? Who performed on the recording? I don't know where that's going to go.


Whether Rob's pal can say "this is a tool and I use to it create music, so I'm the musician here" and claim PPL Royalties for that recording?
I doubt it...but that's the complicated area.


There are royalty collection agencies who want to know who wrote the song,
and royalty collection agencies who want to know who performed on any given recording of a song,
but there's no royalty collection agency, that I'm aware of, which cares about the writers of original or additional music used in a cover version.

Basically, it doesn't matter who wrote the new music for a cover - At least not to the writers or existing royalty collection agencies.
 
Brother Steen the point of the post was to make it CLEAR if you let some other entity publish your work you are giving away more than 50% of potential earnings ...especially if it is your song, your composition, lyrics and you own the recording. It does require you to take the time and effort to become a publisher and sign on for free with Ascap or BMi or other collection group. To be a legit published it does require you actually starting a business and the fees therein. If you are tight on $$$ like so many starting out musicians are then you let a publishing company publish but once you hand over the publishing rights , if those songs start making money the publisher owns them and can choose to sell them back to you or not. Think Michael Jackson buying the Beatles catalog...BIG money on big songs...

Here's the breakdown on cost to be your own publisher in the UK and the United States

Side-by-Side: US vs. UK Publisher Costs

Asset / BodyUnited KingdomUnited States
Performance (PRO)£400 (PRS) + must prove a 15-song catalog$0 to $250 (ASCAP or BMI) + open enrollment
Mechanicals£400 (MCPS)$0 (The MLC)
Total Base Outlay~£800 (approx. $1,000 USD)$0 to $250 USD
 
Fair enough. I suppose that's something not everyone knows.
You can register a separate PRS account (as publisher) and self publish here to ensure you're paid both halves
 
Those figures are vaguely right as to the UK element with our PRS, but one of the rules is that members cannot share the data in detail. The system is not really explained very well, but in my case, I became a member by application, with one song. Never charged me anything to join. I joined PPL at the same time. For many years my catalogue was tiny, two or three a year - mainly because I have always worked on commissions. I'd do a video, the client would want music and have a panic attack when they found out how much clearance was, so I'd write a piece of music in a similar style. One client wanted something from John Michael Jarre - he was at an exhibition flogging satellite receivers in the early days. The video was a gold plated one made for a Sultan, installed unbelievably in a rack room - never to be seen, but it was provided with guard and I spun it on a turntable and made it sparkle. He wanted the music cleared. I reported back the expected visitor count, the number of days and location. The quote came back for £520. The client was happy till I explained that was for the 3:20 piece PER PLAY, and it would be non-stop for 3 days. That's how I started. I charged a flat fee for the use, and used the £520 for the total price, including the recording. I licenced it for that specific event. Then I stuck it on PRS and PPL, so if it was ever used, there was a chance I'd get something. Rarely that happened - although I note somebody keeps Shazamming Gnossienne No. 1 - another track licenced this way, which got 40 Shazams last week - 300% up! No idea how this happens?

One other thing - when you release the tracks, that is where the key features start. Releasing it requires the copyright controller to be identified, and if there is a split it is detailed here. The recording codes get created and then once released, I add the piece to PRS - who are only interested in the names of the people who composed the music and the lyrics. If it's a cover song - so the release is identical to the format of the original, PRS is not really much use. Your name is not there. You can call yourself an arranger, but that does not impact on the composer list. I've been lucky, because most of the covers I have done are for live sound use - often on stage. Tracks essentially - count in at start, and a full stop ending. Most of mine are also old from the 60s/70s and this era was famous for the fade out - often quite early as song lengths were shorter. My old tribute Beachboys band had endings for all the fadeout songs. Not written by Brian wilson or the others originally - so totally new material, and that is a composing credit. One of our band members moved to the states and joined the real Beachboys, and he added our endings to some of their songs. I'm now credited as a co-writer. The advice I got was to be reasonable on the percentages - but because the originals also get the lions share of any royalties, it's never been flagged as an issue - I guess they money comes in and their record company add it to the pot for them. You do get payments from the distributor too - as you have an interest, but the payments are very small. To make it worse, when you release a track there is artist, featured artist and supporting artist catagories too.

I have a track on PRS's system, where three people were involved. One is a PRS member in his own right, but he does not collect the payments. PRS have them, but until he puts in a claim for use, he wont get it and he cannot be bothered. The singer also has a proportion, but she is not a member and has no way of collecting what PRS hold for her. It is less than £100 - so again, hardly worth the bother.

After being a PRS member for such a long time and occasionally getting payments, my stuff suddenly perked up and I think this year for the first time it will be more than the UK state pension for old folk like me. That includes money from the tribute band recordings - which I, not PRS, split up and pay the guys. You might ask why a tribute band is getting their music played? It is a happy accident. two years ago, the BBC accidentally (we think) played our version of Good Vibrations. National radio - an oldies programme. I like to think maybe a 20 year old in charge of collecting the music for the show accidentally found ours and used it. It got picked up on BBC local radio and then ever since then, usage figures world wide went up considerably. Not guaranteed income, but it appears to be steady now. Bit by bit, other tracks seem to have also increased. Quite exciting. Oddly though - NONE of this filtered through to the PPL side of things which is where the actual recording is credited. No activity at all? Presumably the BBC report mechanical plays to them too, but somehow, that is not working.

I've also discovered my PRS status has changed now my earnings are going up - I am now not just a member, but a voting member.

In fairness - I am not an expert at any of this, but the small percentage of the shared ones beats 100% of my originals by a long way.
 
You're not meant to register covers. If you didn't write it, you don't register it with them.
PRS shouldn't be paying you anything for a cover of a Beach Boys song.

Same as with the original question. If you wrote the original song, you register that.
 
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